Inital Stages Of Land Purchase...

[Cuban]

I welcome any pointers to the various blogs and other threads (TV or otherwise) that I may have missed or already read on the subject of land purchase with the intention to build a family home; but I wanted to seek any recent experiances on this subject in light of changes in Thai Laws or application of relavent laws. Also general thoughts, one liners like "don't do this" or "ensure you do" are most welcome.

The land in question is 2.5 Rai on edge of a village, currently a poor producing rice field (lack of water) about 300 - 400 metres from a Wat. The land has chanot and we have the support of the Puu Yai Ban for both purchase and the house. Purchase by a Thai national, funds from farang (me) via a Thai bank -> Thai bank transfer.

I am happy that the asking price is about right, in comparision to similar sizes and locations. I am expecting to be able to get a final discount by offering cash in one hit rather that a typical Thai three years terms, already getting some (?) discount by being a local person, there is interest (I'm told) from BKK.

Any thoughts on milking the last/best discount from a seller? Sadly I am not able to deal directly and I feel that would not be the best course of action anyway. Seeing farangs makes prices rise.

I will be filling the land by at least 1 metre before considering building (settle for one year?), looking at something like a post house with one/some rooms on the ground floor. However I am aware that the height of the nearby Wat will impact the overall height I can build to. I am already considering funding Wat work to smooth any ruffled orange robes in that direction. Design will be very important as the location will make the house a local landmark for the village.

When it comes to the house, having read and experianced some aspects of Thai construction, I will be getting the basic build done then finishing the electrics and plumbing directly under my control to avoid Thai style whims. I am also not seeking 100% completion of decoration etc. before occupying the house, as having something to do seems to be a very important part of life in Thailand.

The house will be Thai/Farang, following similar ideas I have read on TV. I'm looking at cavity wall insulation, probably slab rather than injected foam, with sheet roofing. I don't need to think about tons of tiles resting on Thai welded metal frames while trying to sleep. Also sheet roofing follows the village style with only a few local houses having tile. Tile mass will act as a heat sink.

After a number of conversations about build strength and cooling elements, the theme of the house will be concrete, concrete and concrete. Due to distance and road access I'm thinking of getting this mixed on site - although theft of dry sacks will be an issue(?).

Getting live on-site builders is probably the solution to theft problems, experiances?

Has we will have plenty of garden to play with I'll be looking to plant banana and a few trees asap to have them established before the house is completed.

Thoughts?

[soap]

when you come to fill the land at least one metre you could be looking at 100.000B per rai,with the chinod i would check and double check with the land office that everything is in order ie the land is not hocked with the bank i would think the puu yai ban will be on commision if the deal goes through thats thai style.

just check check and double check everything i could write a book on the nightmare stories of farang being taken for a ride over the years

[doolally]

Reading this statement in “A Rant” by Anonymous has prompted me into

describing my own adventures in owning property in Thailand.

“A lot of people may think that this is just a tempest in a teapot in that

a foreigner can just simply put the property in the name of his Thai wife

girlfriend etc this also is against the law, even though there has never

been a crackdown and enforcement is lax at best.”

This statement is incorrect, because you can do this legally with any Thai

citizen while protecting yourself.

Part of this was mentioned in an e-mail on a recent Stickman Weekly, but

here is the entire story now that all the paperwork is complete. Also, this

took place in Chiang Mai. Laws might be interpreted differently in other

parts of Thailand.

My wife is Thai, and our marriage is registered at the Amphur. We spent some

time looking for a house and land, found something we liked, negotiated the

price and were ready to buy.

I had heard enough horror stories about losing property, and wanted the best

way to protect myself in case the relationship went sour, or if something

happened to my wife. A friend recommended a good lawyer, and off we went.

Several friends had suggested different options – such as forming a bogus

company, holding the mortgage on the property, or creating a long-term

lease. The lawyer came up with a different option.

There is a legal contract called an “USUFRUCT”. Yes, it is a strange

word, but a quick search will tell you that it is an agreement that gives

you the right to use someone else’s property. These are recognized in

Thailand. They can be written for any term from 1 year to life, and any fees

from zero on up.

Ours gives me the legal right to use the property for the rest of my life,

for no fees. It is also legally binding on my wife’s heirs if something

happens to her. After my lifetime, who cares?

Transferring the property was simple. Our lawyer came with us to the land

office. We paid the seller for the land, paid the land office the transfer

fees and my wife was listed on the property chanote as the owner. Then, we

signed the usufruct that the lawyer had prepared. We then paid the land

office an additional fee of 55 baht, and my name was listed on the chanote

as the registered user of the property. Now the land cannot be transferred

unless I sign the papers.

After doing this, we decided to go all the way, and get my name listed in

the Tabian Baan – the house book. This was a typically Thai bureaucratic

process, done at the local Amphur. Below is the gist of the information they

gave us during the process.

Amphur – “Yes, this can be done. You need to fill out this form, and

provide us with 3 photos and a Residence Certificate from the Immigration

Office. You also have to get 2 witnesses to sign these other forms, and give

us copies of their ID cards”

Thai Immigration issues these Residency Certificates only for use at other

government offices. The certificate will state the purpose that you are

using it for. You will need the usual passport and visa copies, 2 photos,

and proof that it is a legal address. The certificates are supposed to be

free – but some offices will want some tea money.

For witnesses, we got a friend of my wife and an officer at our bank to sign

the forms. Back to the Amphur we go.

Amphur – “OK, everything is here. We are busy now – come back in one

week”

One week later, back to the Amphur we go.

Amphur – “Oh, these witnesses are no good. We forgot to tell you that

the witnesses have to live in the city of Chiang Mai. We also forgot to tell

you that you have to bring the witnesses here to the Amphur to sign the

forms”

We find two new witnesses, and take them to the Amphur.

Amphur – “OK, everything is here. Come back in 2 days.”

Lo and behold – 2 days later it was done. BUT, I was not listed in my

wife’sblue house book. I was given a bright yellow house book of my very

own!!Same size, printing and information as hers, just the cover was a

different color. The official fee was 25 baht for the process – probably

the cost of the book.

Now, I will be able to confuse the hel_l out of all the clerks at Thai

government offices – vehicle registration, drivers license, etc. Most of

them have no idea that a foreigner can even get a house book, let alone ever

having seen one.

BobS

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31 August 2006

In case you wish to communicate the meaning of this 'strange' word in Thai to a Thai, the word in Thai is สิทธิในการใช้ประโยช์น (the phoenetics of this are sitthi nai kaan chai prayote). The definition goes on for a bit in Thai as well, but it basically says the same thing as the extract from the Civil and Commercial Code shown below, to wit: "the right to use another's property together with the profits of that property under stipulations whereby the said property is not harmed or damaged or caused losses thereto." This quote is my direct translation from the English-Thai dictionary I am using at the moment.

usufruct

SYLLABICATION: u·su·fruct

PRONUNCIATION: yz-frkt, -s-

NOUN: The right to use and enjoy the profits and advantages of something belonging to another as long as the property is not damaged or altered in any way.

ETYMOLOGY: Late Latin sfrctus, variant of Latin susfrctus : sus, use; see usual + frctus, enjoyment; see fruit.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CIVIL AND COMMERCIAL CODE OF THAILAND

TITLE VII: USUFRUCT

Section 1417

An immovable property* may be subjected to a usufruct by virtue of which the usufructuary is entitled to the possession, use and enjoyment of the property.

He has the right of management of the property.

The usufruct of a forest, mine or quarry entitles the usufructuary to the exploitation of the forest, mine or quary.

Section 1418

A usufruct may be created either for a period of time or for the life of the usufructary.

If no time has been fixed, it is presumed that the usufruct is for the life of the usfructuary.

If it is created for a period of time, the provisions of Section 1403 paragraph 3** shall apply mutatis mutandis.

In any case the usufuct comes to an end on the death of the usufructuary.

Section 1419

If property is destroyed without compensation being paid, the owner is not bound to restore it; but, if he does so to any extent, the usufruct revives to that extent.

If any compensation is paid, the owner or the usufructary must restore the property so far as it is possible to do so, having regard to the amount of the compensation received, and the usufruct revives to that extent; but, if restoration is impossible, the usufruct comes to an end and the compensation must be divided between the owner and the usufructary in proportion to the damages suffered by the respectively.

The same rules apply mutatis mutandis in the case of expropriation as well as in the case of partial destruction of the property or of partial impossibility to restore the property.

Section 1420

When the usufruct comes to an end, the usufructuary must return the property to the owner.

The usufructuary is liable for the destruction or depreciation in value of the property, unless he proves that the damage was not the cause of his own fault.

He must replace anything which he has wrongfully consumed.

He is not bound to give compensation for depreciation in value caused by reasonable use.

Section 1421

The usufructary must, in the exercise of his rights, take as much care of the property as a person of ordinary prudence would take of his own property.

Section 1422

Unless otherwise provided in the act creating the usufruct, the usufructary may transfer the exercise of his right to a third person. In such case, the owner of the property may sue the transferee directly.

Section 1423

The owner may object to any unlawful or unreasonable use of the property.

If the owner proves that his rights are in peril, he may demand security from the usufructary; except in the case of a donor who has reserved to himself the usufruct of the property given.

If the usufructary fails to give security within a reasonable time fixed for the purpose, or if, in spite of the owner’s objection, he continues to make use of the property unlawfully or unreasonably, the Court may appoint a Receiver to manage the property in his stead. Upon security being given, the Court may release the Receiver so appointed.

Section 1424

The usufructary is bound to keep the substance of the property unaltered, and is responsible for ordinary maintenace and petty repairs.

If important repairs or measures are necessary for the preservation of the property, the usufructuary must forthwith inform the owner thereof and permit them to be carried out. In case of default by the owner, the usufructuary may have the work carried out at the owner’s expense.

Section 1425

All extraordinary expenses must be borne by the owner, but in order to meet these or expenses coming under the foregoing section he may realize part of the property unless the usufructuary is willing to advance the necessary funds without charging interest.

Section 1426

The usufructary shall, for the duration of the usufruct, bear expenses for the management of the property, pay taxes and duties, and be responsible for interest payable on debts charged upon it.

Section 1427

If required by the owner, the usufructuary is bound to insure the property against loss for the benefit of the owner; and if the property is already insured, he is bound to renew such insurance when due.

He must pay the premiums of the insurance for the duration of his usufruct.

Section 1428

No action by the owner against the usufructuary or his transferee in connection with the usufruct or vice versa may be entered later than 1 year after the usufruct comes to an end; but in any action by the owner who could not have known of the end of the usufruct, the prescription of 1 year shall run from the time when he knew or ought to have know of it.

[soap]

very good post doolally

has the saying goes,were theres a will theres a way

[Krub]

Hi,

Make sure you fill the land as high as you can giving a slope effect, this will allow for further changes and possible floods.

Wait at least a year to settle and re-fill if necessary after the first rain season has past

I have gone the 30 + 30 years lease, the usufruct way seems a good viable other solution but i am no expert.

Make sure you are available 24 hours on the spot during the fill, the preparation for building and building

Good luck

[pazza]

Thanks doolally for passing this on.

I read many posts on here and I must say that this is one of the clearest easiest explanations I have (I think safe to say) ever read (that said, I have problems with flat pack furniture).

I am not moving over until next year so I am going to print this out for future reference.

It was straight forward, step by step, uncomplicated and very informative (I feel, if I was in Thailand now, I could go straight out and do it).

I just wish the visa section could be as easy as reading this.

Steve

[thedi]

Getting live on-site builders is probably the solution to theft problems, experiances?

Has we will have plenty of garden to play with I'll be looking to plant banana and a few trees asap to have them established before the house is completed.

Our house has a balcony all around. This gives us a place to sit wherever the sun and wind come from. And there is never direct sun on the walls. Like yours, my house is at the border of the village on some rice fields. There is enough wind, so we didn't install aircond (even so I initially planed aircond).

We have a garden of 3 rai and just bought another 3 rai. The old garden has a pond to swim in the hot season and trees for shadow. The new garden will have a smaller pond for fish and fruit trees. The garden has a wall around it. It keeps cows and other uninvited guests (like snakes) out. As you, I like to do something. But I also have a man from the village who sleeps in a small apartement over the garage and looks after the garden (about 2 hours/day, 1500 Baht/month).

Trees are a problem because of insects which eat all the new leaves. Bananas are easy, but Mangoes have difficulties with the dirt and insects. Look what your neigbors plant. I planted 80 mangoes at first and they all died. Now I have local trees and no problems. Coconut come in some places, not in other places. They do not like hard dirt but prefer sand. Salt does not seam to be a problem for coconuts, bit for some other trees.

Speaking of insects: I changed all my fluorecent lights in the house from white to yellow to reduce the attraction of insects at night. This helps a lot. I also installed a blue light in the sala in the pond and this attracts insects there. I do not have to feed my fish in the rain season.

We never had any problems with theft. But I let only people from the village build and the gardener doubles as security whenever I go to work. My wife would not feel comfortable alone with only our daughter in the house at night. At day time we also have a woman who cleans, cooks and washes, but most important: keeps company for my wife when I am not there.

It is difficult to find good people to do the work. I look more if I like them and if I can trust them, rather than as what exeriance they have. Most of them are related to my wife. But it is important that your wife does not 'greg jai' them - it is important that she is naturally in the position of the boss 'phee', rather than 'nong', or it will be difficult to critisize when get lazy (which will come sooner or later).

When we build anything, I am always around myself.

This house and garden is my hobby now. I am sure you will enjoy yours too.

Regards

Thedi