Is this considered as “work”?

[Guest]

Hello there, rather simple question:

 

My girlfriend and I recently opened a small restaurant which customer base is foreigners, we’re doing pretty well so far however as her English is kind of limited I get to do the “social talking” part with our customers.

 

My job is more or less to sit at a table or at the counter and welcome customers with basic questions like “Where are you from?” Or “How long are you staying in Thailand?”.

 

Basically just shooting small talk phrases to our customers, greeting them and thanking them on their way out.

 

As I’m currently playing the Tourist visa+30 days game along with the VoA+30 days game, I don’t want to get caught working illegally in Thailand.

 

Hence the question and the topic, is what I just described “working” in the eyes of an Immigration officer and in regards of the Thai law or am I just sitting here helping my girlfriend or acting as a long-standing customer?

 

Thanks.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Guest

[Crossy]

Any interaction with customers in "your" restaurant could be construed as work and could cause you issues, don't even pick up a plate. There have been reports of guys getting into trouble for doing just that.

 

In the real world much depends upon where you are. Middle of a tourist area with lots of competition who could shop you to the authorities = strong possibility of a visit from the BiB. Middle of nowhere with little competition = enjoy your chats.

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Any interaction with customers in "your" restaurant could be construed as work and could cause you issues, don't even pick up a plate. There have been reports of guys getting into trouble for doing just that.

 

In the real world much depends upon where you are. Middle of a tourist area with lots of competition who could shop you to the authorities = strong possibility of a visit from the BiB. Middle of nowhere with little competition = enjoy your chats.

 

A very touristic street in Pattaya.

 

I guess I have to be extremely careful and cautious then.

 

Thanks a lot.

[Matzzon]

Yes, it´s to be considered work where ever you are. 

 

32 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

guess I have to be extremely careful and cautious then.

That will probably not help you, in the long run, if you decide to continue "helping" in any kind of way. What you should do is leave it alone or get a work permit if the business can afford one.

[elviajero]

If you’re profiting from what you’re doing it is definitely work.

 

It sounds like you are taking the role of a host or tout.

[ukrules]

Be a genuine customer, have an open tab and pay for it. If they come for you they will watch what you do for hours/days and work out what should be on that tab.

 

They are very sneaky. Don't touch anything in the place that a regular customer wouldn't touch, only speaking to the customers while being a customer yourself should help you a lot. They're waiting for you to do something only an employee would do.

 

I've heard many stories over the years, some of them first hand, of undercover immigration police tricking suspects into doing something they shouldn't be doing - like answering the phone for example, they wait until you're the only person available, make the call themselves and hope you answer it - if you do it's time to pay the 'fine'.

 

This happens even to people who have work permits, they trick you into doing something outside the work permits scope and again - it's a fine. Recent changes in work permits might have prevented that a little these days.

 

You are a target, that's for sure.

[ezzra]

From experience, as long as you don't stand behind a service counter enter the kitchen or being seen handling proceeds of the restaurant's money and only sit in front chatting with patrons you're safe...

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, tcp7 said:

A very touristic street in Pattaya.

 

I guess I have to be extremely careful and cautious then.

 

Thanks a lot.

There I would suggest it is only a matter of time before you get challenged, if you are actively and frequently in there. 

[ExpatPH]

57 minutes ago, ukrules said:

Be a genuine customer, have an open tab and pay for it. If they come for you they will watch what you do for hours/days and work out what should be on that tab.

 

They are very sneaky. Don't touch anything in the place that a regular customer wouldn't touch, only speaking to the customers while being a customer yourself should help you a lot. They're waiting for you to do something only an employee would do.

 

I've heard many stories over the years, some of them first hand, of undercover immigration police tricking suspects into doing something they shouldn't be doing - like answering the phone for example, they wait until you're the only person available, make the call themselves and hope you answer it - if you do it's time to pay the 'fine'.

 

This happens even to people who have work permits, they trick you into doing something outside the work permits scope and again - it's a fine. Recent changes in work permits might have prevented that a little these days.

 

You are a target, that's for sure.

 

Agree, remember threads about this on Thaivisa, earlier years.

 

Sitting at the counter ..... maybe asking how was the food ..... thanking them on their way out ....

A guest would n e v e r  do that. You walking on a very thin line indeed.

 

OP should avoid doing anything on tourist visa.

 

It's a matter of luck, and time.

Do you feel that lucky?

Edited July 5, 2019 by ExpatPH

[mikebell]

A friend in Bang Saray lived above his wife's restaurant.  He made himself a cup of coffee in the kitchen hours before opening hours; it cost him 50K in 'fines'.  He thinks he was shopped by a jealous FARANG rival.

[mikebell]

In the same location, a lovely little French restaurant called Chez Jerome's had to shut down because his profits were not enough to pay the required number of Thai employees.

Thailand will get what it deserves.

[Guest]

Yeah and we already have several rivals on the premises, people who wanted to buy that business very badly but couldn’t cut the deal in the end (mostly because they been <deleted> for years to the previous owner so the owner preferred to sell out his business to complete strangers, us).

 

I will definitely stop helping the girlfriend then.

 

Glad I made this thread. Better be safe than sorry.

[jacko45k]

2 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

Glad I made this thread. Better be safe than sorry.

Good luck, it's a tough competitive game. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Good luck, it's a tough competitive game. 

We’re doing okay considering how little we have invested in it.

 

Good days are about 2k bahts, bad ones are about 1k bahts.

[KiChakayan]

An Immigration officer told me that in Thailand "self relief" is considered as work, as it has a negative impact on the job market.

[phantomfiddler]

I was told by an immigration official that if one owned a property one was working !!!

[NightSky]

..as someone else says get a work permit or don't put yourself in the firing line, you only have to read ThaiVisa every day to hear about the crackdowns on illegal workers etc..

 

I wouldn't want to risk it personally

[ianezy0]

If someone took your pic in the restaurant then immigration would search your details and discover your past illegal activities ????

[pi2005ni]

Under no circumstances should you consider doing what you are doing as you will get into trouble quite soon . This is indeed considered working . I have dealt with many who have been caught just chatting with customers. One business owner was sitting in his bar , talking to no one but immigration said they observed him watching the staff so therefore was working . After paying a very large fine to avoid being deported he sold his bar and moved out of Pattaya. 

[ChrisY1]

Keep an eye out for competing restaurant owners taking pictures of your place....

One photo of you directing customers may be all that's needed for immigration cops to pay a visit.

Around Hua Hin/Cha Am...the under the table costs can be north of 300k

[Alex2554]

34 minutes ago, pi2005ni said:

Under no circumstances should you consider doing what you are doing as you will get into trouble quite soon . This is indeed considered working . I have dealt with many who have been caught just chatting with customers. One business owner was sitting in his bar , talking to no one but immigration said they observed him watching the staff so therefore was working . After paying a very large fine to avoid being deported he sold his bar and moved out of Pattaya. 

 

 Land Of Suckers )

I have a six years experience of helping my wife to manage her massage shop in Patong. Never had a problem

 

 

 

[balo]

Just be a regular customer in your place, nothing to worry about as long as you "pay" the bill as everyone else.

Never go behind the desk and kitchen until after closing time when only your wife can see you. 

[PerkinsCuthbert]

10 hours ago, KiChakayan said:

An Immigration officer told me that in Thailand "self relief" is considered as work, as it has a negative impact on the job market.

When one is not allowed to give oneself a happy ending, it is time to seek greener pastures.

[Suradit69]

10 hours ago, mikebell said:

He thinks he was shopped by a jealous FARANG rival.

Probably the biggest risk regardless of where you are or the technicalities of what you do or don't do, if someone, Thai or farang, wants to create a problem for you, you will have a problem. 

[SteveK]

Maybe just go there once a day for an hour or two, eat some food, drink a couple beers, chat with some people and be seen to pay your wife. As said before, don't do anything a customer wouldn't do. Then you are just a customer of your wife's business - that isn't illegal yet.

 

Are they really sneaky enough to go in plain clothes and call the restaurant to see if you answer?

Edited July 5, 2019 by SteveK

[CHdiver]

13 hours ago, tcp7 said:

As I’m currently playing the Tourist visa+30 days game along with the VoA+30 days game

I would be more worried about this part. How long before they don't let you into Thailand again? In the end, it does not matter, one way or another it will end not the way you want. Get a wp if you can.

[SteveK]

1 minute ago, CHdiver said:

 Get a wp if you can.

Could anyone shed any light on how to get a work permit for a business owned solely by your Thai wife and yourself? Is that even a possibility?

[elviajero]

4 hours ago, phantomfiddler said:

I was told by an immigration official that if one owned a property one was working !!!

That is not true. What you do when inside the property determines whether or not you’re working!

[tonboy]

13 hours ago, ezzra said:

From experience, as long as you don't stand behind a service counter enter the kitchen or being seen handling proceeds of the restaurant's money and only sit in front chatting with patrons you're safe...

Also from experience, you are right. completely. You are just doing some chatting. But don't dare to take orders , no cleaning or management, don't give the staff orders. And so on. 
Many restaurants in CM are in the same situation. Thai lady owner, faland boyfriend or husband chatting with customers. 
Never had any problems.

[tonboy]

51 minutes ago, SteveK said:

Could anyone shed any light on how to get a work permit for a business owned solely by your Thai wife and yourself? Is that even a possibility?

as long as you have 4 thai employees working (or at least on paper) you can get a workpermit for 90 days or longer in management or customrelations function