Where to seek advice on property ownership?

[paulsingle]

My wife's parents have a property which they bought with a loan from the bank. I presume this loan is a mortgage but I don't know and my wife doesn't understand the process at all.

I am told that the property is in the mother's name but had to have her son's name (wife's brother) on the loan as well because the parents are too old to have a loan on their own.

My wife is paying the loan and the plan is to transfer ownership to her when the loan is paid off.

We worry that the son may attempt to borrow further from the bank using the property as collateral and we want to find out exactly who can borrow against the property and who legally owns it.

We also want to find out if there are any options to gain control of the property without first having to pay the loan off in full.

My wife and I are in UK so I imagine it would be difficult to get a mortgage in Thailand while living and working in UK.

 

Is it easy to find professional advice? We will be there, in Khon Kaen, in October and again in January.

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[ezzra]

Either take the parents to the bank and the local land department with the relevant originals or copies of the title deed, and the loan agreement to find out whatever your wife wishes to know, or get the wife to obtain a proper power of attorney from the parents and the signatory to the loan in order to be able to have access to relevant information relating to the property...

Edited July 23, 2019 by ezzra

[geronimo]

same thing happened to a friend of mine, he only found out when the bank came to repossess the property. Cost him 1.6m.  They stupidly put the house in the name of a daughter who borrowed to the limit secretly!

[FarFlungFalang]

Leave that peice of land and buy another with your wife would be safer and less painful and probably a lot cheaper.For legal help just go to as many lawers as you can and try and pick the one you feel the most comfortable with.

[Lannathaijohn]

Do what you would in your own country - arrange meetings with lawyers. The Google World makes this easy for you. 

[Odin Norway]

If you are paying the loan. Have the land deed in your safe keepings. Without the land paper nobody can loan on it.If the land already have a loan, the paper is already in the bank and nobody gets to it without paying of the loan.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Odin Norway

[Dietrichthailand]

28 minutes ago, Odin Norway said:

If you are paying the loan. Have the land deed in your safe keepings. Without the land paper nobody can loan on it.If the land already have a loan, the paper is already in the bank and nobody gets to it without paying of the loan.

Anyone can actually get replacement title deed if their name is already on the deed or company's.  They get a police report saying its lost and in 2 months have a new title deed in hand.

[khunPer]

11 hours ago, paulsingle said:

Any advice would be much appreciated.

To my knowledge, only the name(s) as owner on the title deed can acknowledge dept registered on the deed (mortgage). If the son's name is not on the deed, he should not be able to increase a loan, or obtain a new loan, with the deed as security; but he could get a power of attorney from the real owner (the parents), and do it that way.

 

To my knowledge land cannot be transferred to a new name without registered debt is paid in full. However, if a debitor (bank) might accept a transfer to a new owner, approved for taking over the debt, it might be possible. You need to talk to the bank, especially as your wife is the one that is paying the debt, and eventually also talk to a lawyer.

 

Make sure you have full documentation of the ongoing repayments (to prove who actually paid the debt in case of any dispute).

[Thailand]

26 minutes ago, Dietrichthailand said:

Anyone can actually get replacement title deed if their name is already on the deed or company's.  They get a police report saying its lost and in 2 months have a new title deed in hand.

Yep, happened to a friend, cost her around 20 million. A long story but basically, happened to be her lawyer who forged the documents and then borrowed from a shark who actually got control of the property! The lawyers punishment, ordered to repay the amount of the loan to my friend, never did.

[DaRoadrunner]

11 hours ago, ezzra said:

Either take the parents to the bank and the local land department with the relevant originals or copies of the title deed, and the loan agreement to find out whatever your wife wishes to know, or get the wife to obtain a proper power of attorney from the parents and the signatory to the loan in order to be able to have access to relevant information relating to the property...

Your problem is, how much power the son has over this and whether or not he will cooperate. I would take all papers to the bank and land office first and find out exactly where you stand before talking to the son. Based on the bank and land office answers you may be able to avoid involving the son anyway.

 

If you use a lawyer, make sure it is one of the well known substantial firms. Not some mickey mouse shyster and hyster, of which there are many here.

 

Edited July 24, 2019 by DaRoadrunner

[paulsingle]

3 hours ago, Lannathaijohn said:

Do what you would in your own country - arrange meetings with lawyers. The Google World makes this easy for you. 

Indeed. And I'm doing just that but also interested in hearing from people who may have experience or knowledge of the issue. 

[inThailand]

Where to seek advice on property ownership?

 

Where else but here, where most just just regurate past posts. They actually have no first hand experience in the matter at hand. 

[BritManToo]

14 hours ago, paulsingle said:

I am told that the property is in the mother's name but had to have her son's name (wife's brother) on the loan as well because the parents are too old to have a loan on their own.

My wife is paying the loan and the plan is to transfer ownership to her when the loan is paid off.

We worry that the son may attempt to borrow further from the bank using the property as collateral and we want to find out exactly who can borrow against the property and who legally owns it.

We also want to find out if there are any options to gain control of the property without first having to pay the loan off in full.

Property will be entirely in son's name, all bank loans end at age 60.

Son can only borrow more money from the bank holding the original loan, they keep the deeds to the land.

Only option is to pay off the loan, bank won't agree to anything else.

 

Chances of your wife getting the property, almost zero, unless she buys it from the son.

If your wife is paying off the loan, she would get a statement every month showing, details of loan, home owner, outstanding amount, interest rate. Bank gives it to you when you hand over the cash each month.

 

I'm betting your wife isn't paying the loan, but putting cash in some 3rd parties hand.

So there will be no record of her making any payments ........... Stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

Paid mine this morning, here's the usual receipt the bank gives you.

Edited July 24, 2019 by BritManToo

[jackdd]

Most likely the owner of the property is either the brother or maybe the brother together with the mother.

If you are afraid that the brother will borrow more money against the property... do you think he would just give his property to his sister?

[LukKrueng]

15 hours ago, Odin Norway said:

If you are paying the loan. Have the land deed in your safe keepings. Without the land paper nobody can loan on it.If the land already have a loan, the paper is already in the bank and nobody gets to it without paying of the loan.

the person registered as the property owner can get more loan money from the same bank up to the maximum the bank will allow

 

15 hours ago, Dietrichthailand said:

Anyone can actually get replacement title deed if their name is already on the deed or company's.  They get a police report saying its lost and in 2 months have a new title deed in hand.

if the property is mortgaged to a back it is remarked on the deed and the registered owner won't be able to get a new deed without the bank's approval which he won't get as the deed is stored at the bank and therefore the owner can't lose the paper....

[ballbreaker]

The land chanote and loan documents are two different transactions. If the mother is only name on chanote then she is owner of land. The bank has a lien recorded at land office and on her copy of chanote which the bank keeps until loan paid off.

Most likely the son is just a guarantor of the loan in case parents cannot pay. You can verify by reading parents copy of loan documents.

Sent from my SM-P585Y using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[KhaoYai]

On 7/24/2019 at 10:41 AM, Thailand said:

The lawyers punishment, ordered to repay the amount of the loan to my friend, never did.

And probably still allowed to practice law - Thailand!!! Anywhere else, he'd have gone to prison and been banned from practising law.

[paulsingle]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 12:34 PM, BritManToo said:

Thanks Britmantoo. She knows she has no claim to the property at the moment but doesn't want her parents to end up homeless so she finances the property.

I think we will aim to 'buy' the property from the brother for a nominal sum by paying off the outstanding loan at the same time as getting some agreement of sale or transfer from the brother.

He claims to want nothing from the property as none of his money has gone into it but we'll see what happens when it comes to the crunch.

 

[paulsingle]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 3:42 PM, jackdd said:

This is my concern. I want to find a way to prevent that. We will have to see if we can arrange to buy the property. My wife will use her own money so there's no risk for me and she would then have title to the property.

 

[marcusarelus]

If two names on Chanote mother and son have to go to bank to borrow.  If mom and brother go to bank the chanote can be changed into only the brothers name.  If mother dies all the children have to go to the bank to make a change.  

[paulsingle]

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:17 AM, ballbreaker said:

The land chanote and loan documents are two different transactions. If the mother is only name on chanote then she is owner of land. The bank has a lien recorded at land office and on her copy of chanote which the bank keeps until loan paid off.

Most likely the son is just a guarantor of the loan in case parents cannot pay. You can verify by reading parents copy of loan documents.
 

Thanks for this. I've requested to see the chanote.

[paulsingle]

I've now seen the chanote. The mother is the only person named as owner of the property.

Mother and son are named on the loan documents.

I'm relieved for my wife's sake that her brother can not sell the house or borrow more money against the property.

They borrowed 630,000 THB about 6 years ago and all they have paid is interest. 

I think it makes sense for my wife to pay the loan off as quickly as possible because currently the payments of about 9,000 THB each month are only covering the interest. She can get the title transferred to her own name when the final payment is made.

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, paulsingle said:

I think it makes sense for my wife to pay the loan off as quickly as possible because currently the payments of about 9,000 THB each month are only covering the interest.

That is 9,000 x 12 = 108,000 baht a year in interest only on a 630,000 baht loan, which sounds like a very high interest like 15% p.a. or so, depending of any fees included (direct interest calculation is 17.14%).