Meeting with immigration about TM30 and the latest news about the petition

[Genericnic]

1 hour ago, mtls2005 said:

 

These applications have been available for at least six weeks.

 

The eTM6 app is of questionable usefulness?  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=th.go.immigration.etm6

 

The TM30 app does require registration and approval, which can take up to six + weeks. It offers similar capapbilities as the online (hotel) system. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=th.go.immigration.section38

 

The TM47 app seems pretty solid, but has similar limitations (new passport, int'l re-rentry) to the long-available online system. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=th.go.immigration.immeService

 

 

The apps are OK, but still need a lot of work, IMO.

The TM47 app downloads fine but Google Play says the TM30 is incompatible with my devices. 

 

David

[Guest]

Thanks for your hard work. Much appreciated.

[pookiki]

3 minutes ago, Thailand said:

I have done the same in Chiang mai and they told me that the "signee" on the contract is responsible for themselves,family and guests in respect of subsequent TM30 reports. And that is what they do.

This just serves to reinforce my prior comment that after a TM30 is filed, there should be no subsequent requirement to file another unless there is a permanent change in address. 

[Thailand]

32 minutes ago, Isaanlawyers said:

And Todd Daniels just informed me that there will ne another meeting tonight....

Have to register online, is that to make sure there are not too many attendees with difficult questions? ????

[Genericnic]

Thanks to the OP for the effort. From my perspective, I am afraid with will be for nought. My issue isn't the legal requirements but a lack of consistency.

 

As a retired lawyer, I am used to dealing with paperwork, even totally useless paperwork. Give me a clear set of instructions on what to do and it will get done. What I find frustrating about the TM30 requirements - as well as many of the other IB requirements - is lack of consistency. In my home country, it doesn't matter which office of an agency I go to. The rules and regulations are generally enforced in a consistent manner. In Thailand that is not the case. Each IB office - and in most cases each Immigration officer - is allowed to make up interpretations on their own. The problem is not the rule but the lack of consistency.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

 

David

 

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, ThaiBunny said:

I look forward to the Immigration Department taking steps to lower the value of the baht

maybe not but perhaps lowering the amount needed or an adjusted pre Baht surge dollar amount with an equivalent for each currency or Baht instead of just the Baht

[geisha]

It says tourists do not have to do the Notification of address. Lots of tourists have a tourist visa ,SETV. 60 days. This can be extended one month at your local immigration office. If you do not declare yourself at the Immigration for the Notification of Address, ( they staple a slip receipt in your passport) you will be refused the extension. So , yes, tourists wanting an extension do need to report themselves, even though their condo management has done their part online. I  have to do this at Jomtien .

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Genericnic said:

Thanks to the OP for the effort. From my perspective, I am afraid with will be for nought. My issue isn't the legal requirements but a lack of consistency.

 

As a retired lawyer, I am used to dealing with paperwork, even totally useless paperwork. Give me a clear set of instructions on what to do and it will get done. What I find frustrating about the TM30 requirements - as well as many of the other IB requirements - is lack of consistency. In my home country, it doesn't matter which office of an agency I go to. The rules and regulations are generally enforced in a consistent manner. In Thailand that is not the case. Each IB office - and in most cases each Immigration officer - is allowed to make up interpretations on their own. The problem is not the rule but the lack of consistency.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

 

David

 

This stems from the fact that it is up to the discretion of each IO whether a visa or extension is given

[Jip99]

Well done Seb, thank you for your efforts.

[Conwayspringsstar]

Thank you for your effort and hopefully all effected get some relief.

This causes lots of unneeded stress. 

[ChrisvS]

3 hours ago, Mavideol said:

maybe could pinch in about their request to have 800K blocked at the bank, many of us are property owners, why not use the property as the collateral and allow us to use the cash for daily living expenses,

If (from my knowledge) have formed a company AND pay for your lease with a company cheque, you then are allowed the value of the property instead of cash in the bank.

[Myran]

Keep up the good work, mate. Your work is very much appreciated. This is definitely a big first step, so don't listen to the naysayers.

 

Nothing will ever get done if no one actually takes steps towards doing it, and I'm appreciative that you decided to start this up.

[ChrisvS]

2 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

 

I can't edit the original text but here it is edited with better English:

=========================================================

 

Yesterday, I met officer Longtor at Korat Immigration. He was very nice, very polite and we had a conversation in Thai. I had with me a copy of the petition made by a group of expats and Thai people, a translation, some examples of problems related to TM30, statistics and an interpreter in case I could not fully understand. The interpreter is also a witness of everything that was said.

 

I live in Thailand since 2004. I have permanent residency and do not need to make Form TM30, form TM47 or a yearly extension. If I helped this group of expats with the petition, it is because I feel the current system needs to improve. It was recently reported that numbers of Australians and British coming to Thailand are falling, because of the high value of the baht. It was reported that there has been a 10% fall in the number of Scandinavians living in the land of smiles. The current system seems a mess, and foreigners don't know what to do. I don’t do this for exposure, and spent an incredible amount of time on this project. I manage a law firm in Thailand, and know how things work in Thailand. Often you need connections, it is important to avoid losing face, and I work on difficult cases each month. I was pretty well placed to try something new via a Facebook group. A closed group. I work with Thai lawyers every day, even if visas are not our specialty. We are more litigators, making contracts and documents in Thai and English.

 

Recently, I was told that foreign teachers travelling to other provinces on weekends had to report to immigration Monday morning, so even Thai students were penalised by the strict enforcements of sections 37 and 38 of the immigration act. Like the Bangkok Post mentioned this week, Thailand is shooting itself in the foot, and expats are furious about these rules that some found draconian.

 

It is Thai tradition to discuss, negotiate and not to confront people in Thai culture. The petition is a way to show discomfort and open a dialogue with authorities. It is not a perfect document, some complained about the English (I am a French native speaker -the first version was edited) some complained about it not going far enough (debate about health insurance, or bank deposits required, but we cannot mix everything), some complained about the SSL security of the website (added). In other words, many pissed me off all week as all I was doing was trying to help others, and I know what I am doing. I am not perfect (nobody is) but nobody else had the guts to do it, and many feared to sign the petition, thinking they might be deported. In the past, I personally helped change some laws in Canada, so I am not afraid to say what I think. Here I sued immigration twice (never for fun) in the administrative court with success. I felt that our voice needed to be heard. So with the help of hundreds of people, we made this petition. Yes, hundreds of people helped to correct texts, set up the websites, commented on the website, translated into Thai, and much more. I couldn’t see what else could be done? You want to contest articles 37 and 38 of immigration act based on clause 34 of the constitution? Well, good luck. Talking directly to Bangkok immigration is the next step.... but things in Thailand move slowly. Mediators, arbitrators, negotiations are often used in court. Starting by talking to local immigration, on the back of few thousand signatures, was the best idea we had.

 

It became quickly the talk of the town in English medias: Richard Barrow, the front page of Bangkok Post, cartoons by Stephff, The Thaiger, the Thai Examiner, Pattaya News, etc. I was amazed it went so quickly, but I was expecting more signatures. The website is still there, "Reform-Thai-immigration" (com) and we hope you sign and share so things go faster.

 

Here’s a summary of yesterday’s conversation with immigration:

 

We were told that tourists are not affected by these rules. They want the same as before. But AirBNB must report foreign guests just like hotels.
Immigration understand that expats brings a lot of money to Thailand. But they seem to see two problems:

 

i) A large proportion of foreign workers are from Cambodia, Laos and Burma. Something like 3 million in the country. Often, they do not respect rules and regulations. That is a major problem for immigration. Rules are enforced largely for them but as there is only one law, it affects foreigners from Western countries.

 

ii) it seems that some Indian visitors have abused rules, arriving for example in Phuket, arranging fake marriages with Thai ladies, then disappearing in other provinces. TM 30 started to be more rigorously enforced especially for them, to be able to trace criminals or people abusing the system. Of course terrorists won’t provide their addresses, and I pointed this out. Still, immigration want to be strict on TM30 and TM30, and once registered, it is the responsibility of the Thai landlord to conform.

 

However each immigration office can apply its own rules, which I think is a headache and doesn’t make sense. But this senior officer explained to us how he wants them to apply in Korat. If you are not a tourist and arrive from abroad, even if articles 37 and 38 mention 24 hours, they will give you 7 days to register the TM30. Foreigners have to register TM30 only ONCE (and not tourists) and afterwards, it is the responsibility of the Thai landlord. If you leave Thailand for a while and never registered TM30, you will be fined as a foreigner. I believe it is between 800 to 2,000 baht.

 

Once you are registered in the system, it is the Thai landlord, and NOT the foreigner - the Thai landlord (or hotel) that will pay the fines. I STRONGLY suggest that Thai landlords ask a RECEIPT for ANY FINE and it is the duty of immigration to provide these receipts. We all know about corruption, and we should all fight it, slowly, to make this place better.

 

Now, if you look at clause 37 (4) of the immigration act, a foreigner that goes to another province for 24 hours must report to authorities. This was never previously enforced to my knowledge and in Nakhon Ratchasima, they don’t care about it. They care about TM6, that you made on your arrival in Thailand (airport), the registration of TM30 that you make one time, the 90 days notice (TM47) that you make if you live 90 days in Kingdom, and your yearly extension

 

Each immigration office can have its own rules, which I think is a headache and a non sense. But this high officer explained us how he wants them apply in Korat. If you are not a tourist and arrive from abroad, even if articles 37 and 38 talk about 24 hours, they will give you 7 days to register the TM30. Foreigners have to register TM30 only ONCE (and not tourists) and after, it is the duty of the Thai landlord. If you leave in Thailand for a while and never registered TM30, you will be fine as a foreigner. I believe it is between 800 to 2,000 baht.

 

Two great pieces of news:

 

1) There is a committee set up, looking to modify the immigration law already in place. But changing laws take time. The head of immigration in Korat is part of that committee and they know some changes must be made. They want to make it easier for foreigners. I even talked about the high value of the baht, and they know it causes problems for some retirees.

 

2) But the best news is a document, an order signed on 5th August 2019, that I saw. They did not permit me to make a copy as it is an internal document. However summing up, it is an order from Bangkok to make an application online for all forms, to simplify things. That means TM6, TM30, TM47, will all be online, accessible on your phone, and you won’t have to go to immigration. You will only have to go once a year to immigration for your extension. The 5th of August is the same day that the Bangkok Post mentioned our petition on the front page with the title « Furore over TM30 forms ». Quite sincerely, I think the authorities did listen to us, and the petition helped. It is a coincidence?

 

Other comments were made but again, it can be different depending on the immigration office where you live. In Korat, they told us that if we go to Pattaya on a weekend, we don’t have to report. This is clearly against the articles 37 and 38, but I think immigration understand that they do not want to hurt tourism. But if you do go abroad, yes, your landlord must report via the TM30 on your return.

Other comments were said but again, it can be different depending on the immigration office you live. In Korat, they told us that if we go to Pattaya a weekend, we don’t have to report. This is clearly against the articles 37 and 38, but I think immigration understand that they do not want to hurt tourism. But if you do abroad, yes, your landlord must report tm30 at your return.

 

If you go and sleep at a friend’s house, outside the province, this officer told us not to bother with reporting and paperwork.... that is also against the rules, but if you think about it, who could know if you slept over at your friend’s house. This is different situation from hotels and hotels, or from landlords, who still must report your stay. Again, 37(4) is not enforced according to immigration guidelines.
Let’s hope this online application works well, and will happen quickly. On that, we have no guarantees.

 

The current system is confused. There are too many forms, too many rules and I clearly told them our views. Immigration could explain the rules on their websites and apply them the same way in each office nationally. That would be a great improvement.

 

I would like to note that in the last 10 days, some individuals have tried to block our initiative. Some foreigners make money by helping others having to obtain visas, and it is in their interest to keep rules complicated and unclear. That is a shame. If you want to develop tourism, investment and economy, the rules should be clear and uniformly enforced.

We were told also that because there is a new government, a new cabinet, things are slower.

 

On 15th August, the FCC (Foreign Correspondents Club) is planning a panel on TM30 and immigration rules. Foreign journalists will be invited, and the subject might hit the news again. We were told that if the FCC wants an immigration officer present, they need to write a letter to immigration. I should be there if this event takes place.

 

No names of anybody who helped, signed, or contributed were made public. You can share this post, copy it and provide the information to whoever you want. If you think something is wrong in the following text, let me know. Thanks.

(English edited)

 

 

Thank you for your efforts

[ukrules]

If everything can be done online 24/7 then nobody will care, problem solved.

[losername]

4 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

It is not a perfect document, some complains about the English (I am a French native speaker -the first version was edited)

When details of the petition were first published I was one of those who complained about the English and said that I would not sign.  I had assumed that a campaign such as this would have been conducted by a committee which, no doubt, would have included a native English speaker.  I was wrong.  I make a point of not knowingly criticising the English of a non-native English speaker.  I apologise for doing so on this occasion. Good luck in your project.

[TRJ82]

We should also focus on the 90 day reporting. That is o e of many other issues.

[Tyrant]

Well thank you, my only concern with this is that I go lot's of times to another city and stay sometimes 48 hours sometimes a bit more on a family house, it is annoying as I live far from any Immigration office, since my case is not enforced I'm happy, still I will go now sign that document. 

Cheers

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

Once you are register in the system, it is the Thai landlord, and NOT the foreigner Thai landlord (or hotel) that will pay the fines.

 

The problem is, that's not the way it's working in reality...

 

In reality, foreigners have to go to Immigration. Thai landlords do not.

 

So when the foreigner shows up at Immigration  for their annual extension of stay or similar and the TM30 status is not proven as correct, it's the foreigner who either pays the fine or gets refused their extension.

 

Immigration could hold the non-complying landlords responsible and fine them. But that would take the trouble of finding them, tracking them down and getting them to pay. And surely, Immigration isn't going to spend their officer time doing that, when the unfortunate foreigner is right there in front of them and in need of Immigration's cooperation.

 

[KhunFred]

3 hours ago, CRUNCHER said:

Thank you for your effort.

 

As a landlord I do a TM 30 when a tenant moves in.  After that the tenant is under no obligation to keep me informed as to his movements. How do I know if he leaves Thailand and returns?

 

Even if he does what happens in I am not in Thailand myself? I might well be traveling with limited internet access. How can a landlord reasonably be responsible after the tenant moves in?

If a tenant files for a re-entry permit, that obviously means he is going to leave Thailand for some period of time. Why is it necessary to report upon returning? All the information is included in the application for a re-entry permit. This is little more than harassment.

 

[Mavideol]

1 hour ago, ChrisvS said:

If (from my knowledge) have formed a company AND pay for your lease with a company cheque, you then are allowed the value of the property instead of cash in the bank.

can you provide supporting (data) evidence, because saying something for the fact of saying something or anything it doesn't proof anything and we have been down that road already

[schlemmi]

5 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

Foreigners have to register TM30 only ONCE (and not tourists) and after, it is the duty of the Thai landlord. If you leave in Thailand for a while and never registered TM30, you will be fine as a foreigner. I believe it is between 800 to 2,000 baht.

Please explain when and where have foreigners to register using form tm30.

 

Please explain why a foreigner once registered by using form tm30 this duty is transferred over to the landlord.

 

Please explain why the tourists are exempted to register by using tm30.

[KhunFred]

Your efforts are appreciated. I hope Immigration listens and responds in a positive way. Past experiences do not give me much hope, but there's always the possibility that they will see how pointless these regulations are.

[bwpage3]

Appreciate all your efforts and time spent working on this issue.

 

My question is for a bonafide foreign tourist coming to Thailand for only 2 weeks, do they have to do the TM-30 if they perhaps stay with a relative for 1 or 2 days and they move on?

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, bwpage3 said:

My question is for a bonafide foreign tourist coming to Thailand for only 2 weeks, do they have to do the TM-30 if they perhaps stay with a relative for 1 or 2 days and they move on?

According to the law yes it is required. But you will not be asked to prove one was done unless you need to do something at a immigration office.

[jackdd]

4 minutes ago, bwpage3 said:

Appreciate all your efforts and time spent working on this issue.

 

My question is for a bonafide foreign tourist coming to Thailand for only 2 weeks, do they have to do the TM-30 if they perhaps stay with a relative for 1 or 2 days and they move on?

The landlord / owner / possessor of the place where the foreign tourist is staying has to report the foreigner, the foreign tourist himself doesn't have to do it.

[Mansell]

Merci beacoup for getting something done. You seem to have a good understanding of the Thai mind and bureaucracy, and the patience involved with trying to get change etc. Thank you again.

[jackdd]

21 minutes ago, KhunFred said:

Your efforts are appreciated. I hope Immigration listens and responds in a positive way. Past experiences do not give me much hope, but there's always the possibility that they will see how pointless these regulations are.

They might be overly complicated, but not pointless. Thailand wants to know where foreigners are staying at all times, and don't want to rely on reports from the foreigner himself. (In cases where the foreigner is the landlord this might overlap, but this is a small percentile of all foreigners in Thailand)

So either the landlord has to report the foreigner, or the foreigner has to get an ankle bracelet. Which way do you prefer?

[Salerno]

3 hours ago, Genericnic said:

The TM47 app downloads fine but Google Play says the TM30 is incompatible with my devices. 

You are either:

1. being geoblocked as in your not in Thailand (in which case try using a Thai based VPN or an app to make the system think you're in Thailand), or
2. are trying to download with a Google account that was set up outside Thailand (set up a new Google account from within Thailand), or
3. you are running an old version of Android (less than 6) ... get a new phone ????

 

Have you tried signing up online? https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn24online/

 

If not too risk averse, side load it: https://apkpure.com/section38/th.go.immigration.section38/versions 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Salerno
Added URL

[Brigand]

Korat immigration is a sleepy outpost really that doesn't want the hassle or limelight, maybe you should have gone to do this at like CW OP. Might have got a more terse response but it would travel further.

[Seismic]

All very well having the forms online, as long as the system works. I got a new passport and am now unable to do my TM.47 online. Basically the system is broken, and to get back into the online reporting I would have to leave the country and re-enter. Before anyone comments that it is not necessary, I have had this discussion several times with Immigration and they initially claimed that I could easily continue to do online TM.47, however, they now admit that I probably need to leave and come back to 'reset' the new passport number.