O/A visa and insurance experience today

[Max69xl]

15 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

http://www.pcecnews.com/permNL/Example-BankLetter-Monthly-Deposits.pdf

 

This is Bangkok Banks bank letter showing foreign transfers up to 12 months. They came up with this on their own after January 1, and showed it to immigration 80 meters away, and they approved it. Other banks branches can only issue 6 months transfers, and have to order a 12 months bank letter from the head office in BKK (or wherever the head office is located). It can take up to 1 week to get it. This bank letter is in your hand in 15-20 min. Cost, maybe 200 baht. 

"home country currency debits"??  Did you come up with that name yourself? 

[Martyp]

1 hour ago, el jefe said:

That's the perfect solution. Setting up an escrow type account for the 440,000 baht. It can only be accessed by authorizing the hospital or doctor to draw from it, or going to Immigration to cancel your visa/extension. If authorized to be used by a medical facility it has to be topped up by 60 days before visa/extension renewal.

Of course, the main problem with this is that the Thai insurance companies will lose a fortune in premiums.

The insurance companies would rather sell their better policies for better coverage. There isn't a lot to be made from the few O-A's buying the minimum amount of insurance. Just covering the outpatient part of the requirement shouldn't effect them much either. My US insurance didn't cover me here in Thailand long term and I bought a Thai 10,000,000 baht policy for less than my US insurance. A medical insurance account would also be for those people too old to acquire traditional insurance. Also not a big population.

[Exploring Thailand]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

 

http://www.pcecnews.com/permNL/Example-BankLetter-Monthly-Deposits.pdf

 

That's fine. It wouldn't be problem for me. I thought you were talking about showing them documentation from your home country.

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

And what was that on Nov 7th that diplomatic pressure from embassies and consuls fixed ?? 

 

Surely your not concluding the arrival insurance (something thats debatable if its even put to bed yet) came from embassy pressure are you ?? 

Don't know and neither do you.  I do know for a fact that the US Embassy and the European Embassies  have sent a Diplomatic Note requesting an explanation of what the police order actually says and means.

 

As far as past actions- the OP who indicated that the US Embassy asked for  Embassy letter validity up to 6 months is accurate.

 

I also remember a court case won by an American on an investment extension that was initially denied by Immigration. He got his extension.

 

The simpl,e fact that what they are doing is illogical; not well  executed and most likely discriminatory should get the attention of a few powerful people in the Thai Government. It sure got the attention of the foreign diplomatic community and they got more pull than you or I.  If social media  gets ahold of this internationally-pressure  comes to bear. Remember the case of the Saudi woman trying to be deported by Thai immigration back to Saudi.  It didn't happen due to international pressure.

 

You may  dismiss everything  I say with a laugh but it isn't over-that is for sure.

 

[TheAppletons]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

 Remember the case of the Saudi woman trying to be deported by Thai immigration back to Saudi.  It didn't happen due to international pressure.

 

 

  I'm sorry - is the death sentence in play here for O-A visa holders?  If so, they've really screwed this up.  

[LivinLOS]

I seriously question the sanity, or how long they have dealt with Thailand's bureaucracy, of anyone who thinks that letters to their embassy is going to bring the slightest bit of pressure to bear on IOs or the rules of immigration themselves. 

 

Look at where we are, a military junta run country, which just barred its only opposition, and is sucking up to Hun Sen, China, Myanmaar, and all the other human rights abusers.. A country where slavery is an open secret, where non Thais are tortured, abused, trafficked and whored out, and your talking about discriminatory rules for not grandfathering some wealthy westerners out of a rule ??  

 

Because 'our Human Rights'.. lol.

[OJAS]

6 hours ago, Max69xl said:

"home country currency debits"??  Did you come up with that name yourself? 

Well, if you care to take a look at this particular letter, you will see, in the second column, several rows of entries, each denoted "USD". And, against each such entry in the third column is the figure 4,990.00 - which, using my Sherlock Holmes powers of deduction in the absence of a sadly-lacking knowledge of the Thai language, I have inferred as meaning the amount which was, in each case, initially sent on its merry way from an account in the USA to Thailand for conversion into THB and subsequent crediting to a Thai account.

 

In my humble opinion, the term "home country currency debits" perfectly and accurately describes the entries in columns 2 & 3 of this hallowed letter when read in conjunction with each other. However, if you feel that you have a better way of describing these entries, Mr Clever Clogs, then I look forward with baited breath to learning what your alternative terminology might be.

Edited November 21, 2019 by OJAS

[OJAS]

32 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

I seriously question the sanity, or how long they have dealt with Thailand's bureaucracy, of anyone who thinks that letters to their embassy is going to bring the slightest bit of pressure to bear on IOs or the rules of immigration themselves. 

 

Look at where we are, a military junta run country, which just barred its only opposition, and is sucking up to Hun Sen, China, Myanmaar, and all the other human rights abusers.. A country where slavery is an open secret, where non Thais are tortured, abused, trafficked and whored out, and your talking about discriminatory rules for not grandfathering some wealthy westerners out of a rule ??  

 

Because 'our Human Rights'.. lol.

So did the 2013 directive I referred to in post #1369 just magically appear out of thin air, then?

[Max69xl]

9 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

And in the last few decades, can anyone think of a single time that any diplomatic pressure has changed anything in Thai visa law ?? 

There's never been any diplomatic pressure when it comes to immigration laws. 

[Max69xl]

37 minutes ago, OJAS said:

So did the 2013 directive I referred to in post #1369 just magically appear out of thin air, then?

You didn't post #1369.

[el jefe]

7 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

I seriously question the sanity, or how long they have dealt with Thailand's bureaucracy, of anyone who thinks that letters to their embassy is going to bring the slightest bit of pressure to bear on IOs or the rules of immigration themselves. 

 

Look at where we are, a military junta run country, which just barred its only opposition, and is sucking up to Hun Sen, China, Myanmaar, and all the other human rights abusers.. A country where slavery is an open secret, where non Thais are tortured, abused, trafficked and whored out, and your talking about discriminatory rules for not grandfathering some wealthy westerners out of a rule ??  

 

Because 'our Human Rights'.. lol.

Exactly. The letter I got from the US Embassy said they would ask about accepting US Insurance rather than the mandatory Thai policies, which doesn't help me at all and didn't answer my question to them. They said nothing about asking to change the effective date and grandfathering existing expats.
I've read nothing about any foreign govt trying to influence the rules because some unknown expat might be forced to relocate out of thailand.

[Thaidream]

7 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

seriously question the sanity, or how long they have dealt with Thailand's bureaucracy, of anyone who thinks that letters to their embassy is going to bring the slightest bit of pressure to bear on IOs or the rules of immigration themselves. 

 

Look at where we are, a military junta run country, which just barred its only opposition, and is sucking up to Hun Sen, China, Myanmaar, and all the other human rights abusers.. A country where slavery is an open secret, where non Thais are tortured, abused, trafficked and whored out, and your talking about discriminatory rules for not grandfathering some wealthy westerners out of a rule ??  

 

Because 'our Human Rights'.. lol

Thank you  for making the case that each person who is an expat in Thailand needs to speak up by at the least writing to their Embassies; the Ministry of Foreign Affairs; the Ministry of Health amd ex[;ain why this change is unfair; unjust and probably  illegal.

 

If one never speaks up, one never  gets anything that is wrong changed.

 

Thailand can certainly demand health insurace for any on an O-A as long as the start date is 31 October 2019 but it is unjust to place a rule on people who have had an O-A for  decades, came into Thailand for a peaceful retirement and now find they are  over the age of even getting the coverage.

 

I have sent my letters- maybe it will do no good; byt maybe  hundreds and diplomatic notes will cause those in power to stop and think.  Actions like this have ramafications.

 

Just becaue you think it is impossible- doesn't mean you should not try for justice.

 

Instead of sitting around laughing at people who try to do the right thing- you might want to stop telling everyone what can;t be changed and write a letter.

[Thaidream]

3 hours ago, el jefe said:

Exactly. The letter I got from the US Embassy said they would ask about accepting US Insurance rather than the mandatory Thai policies, which doesn't help me at all and didn't answer my question to them. They said nothing about asking to change the effective date and grandfathering existing expats.
I've read nothing about any foreign govt trying to influence the rules because some unknown expat might be forced to relocate out of thailand

Then you write another letter- explaing that  having a law changed and applied to people already in Thailand is unfair; unjust and most likely illegal and asking for some reciprocity- meaning the US or other countries do not make it imposible to abide by the law. For example- an 80 year old expat who came 14 years ago and now cannot get the required insurance.

 

Do not give up/  If you have an O-A, it is still possible to  change to an O Visa or if married go the marriage extension route.

[Thaidream]

10 hours ago, TheAppletons said:

I'm sorry - is the death sentence in play here for O-A visa holders?  If so, they've really screwed this up

My point re the Saudi girl was that if no one would have complained the girl would have been sent immediately back to Saudi Arabia. Social Media amd the international news  picked up the story and  the pressure worked.

 

By the way- you bring up the term death sentence.  You might want to ask some very elderly people  who came decades ago with an O-A; have lived in peace; and now find themselves possibly facing a loss of their home with no family left in their birth country to assist them .   

 

Unless the expat community actually tries to do something by at least writing letters instead of  carping at each other - the next change  may affect you.

[OJAS]

7 hours ago, Max69xl said:

There's never been any diplomatic pressure when it comes to immigration laws. 

I therefore look forward to hearing from you and @LivinL0S as to how the 2013 Directive relating to the maximum Embassy income confirmation validity period can be explained away, then. Below is the 2013 thread on this particular issue which I have now succeeded in unearthing:-

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by OJAS

[el jefe]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Then you write another letter- explaing that  having a law changed and applied to people already in Thailand is unfair; unjust and most likely illegal and asking for some reciprocity- meaning the US or other countries do not make it imposible to abide by the law. For example- an 80 year old expat who came 14 years ago and now cannot get the required insurance.

 

Do not give up/  If you have an O-A, it is still possible to  change to an O Visa or if married go the marriage extension route.

I'm not giving up. I'm not even worried any more. My O-A is good until Sept 2021. I have no idea what the visa rules might be then so there is no point in my even thinking about getting an O and what might be then. As we've determined most of us are eligible for more than one visa.

I can play by anyone's rules as long as they don't change the rules in the middle of the game. So far they haven't. 2021 will be a new game.

but I also have no intention of writing another letter to the US Embassy. there are more important things I can waste my time on.
 

[Mango Bob]

7 minutes ago, el jefe said:

I'm not giving up. I'm not even worried any more. My O-A is good until Sept 2021. I have no idea what the visa rules might be then so there is no point in my even thinking about getting an O and what might be then. As we've determined most of us are eligible for more than one visa.

I can play by anyone's rules as long as they don't change the rules in the middle of the game. So far they haven't. 2021 will be a new game.

but I also have no intention of writing another letter to the US Embassy. there are more important things I can waste my time on.
 

How about writing it in one of the newspapers about the injustice of the police order and immigration making it retroactive.  Also, the effect it has on those who can not get insurance

[sidelines]

On 11/21/2019 at 8:17 AM, Peterw42 said:

Is the OA insurance having a big impact ?

Judging by the amount of posts/threads, it would appear that its not having a broad impact.

 

Past issues like income letters, changes to seasoning, tm30, have all seen 1,000s of posts, a new thread every hour etc. I can only presume the changes dont effect many people, It would appear most people started with a Non-O and its business as usual.

Well said that man.

 

There has been nary a tremor on thaivisa.com so the numbers effected must be negligible, every woke individual either reads thaivisa or posts here. Anyway those pesky O-A visa holders had it coming, they were gaming the system. No money held hostage in a Thai bank for them.

 

The O route was obviously the way to go for retirement and the majority of thaivisa posters obviously went down that route. Far more sensible. O, we are alright Jack, no mandatory health insurance for us.

 

Yes, those on extensions of stay based on an original O-A entry are also caught up in this and need 800,000 baht in the bank plus mandatory health insurance from a Thai provider, even if they have far superior coverage from an insurance company not on the approved list.

 

But, hey, this is an even smaller demographic including a handful or so of over 70s with no hope of getting health coverage who face a very uncertain future. Surely it is not up to O visa holders and other retirees to worry about/encourage/assist these people who seemed to have not planned properly for their retirement.

 

[moogradod]

3 hours ago, Mango Bob said:

..... and immigration making it retroactive.  Also, the effect it has on those who can not get insurance

You name the 2 important points. It is not the insurance itself alone that is the problem, which is deliberately ignored by many posters here and probably even in the mindset of the initiators - repeating the mantra "insurance is good - what are you complaining about".

 

In countries where insurance is mandatory everybody required can at least get an insurance - not to speak of the many who are already in the country and have local relations to a family and children and would retroactively be discarded.

 

To treat those as just collaterals ("there are not that many, just let us ignore them") is completely ignorant of the fact that the consequences may be extremely dramatic - amounting to literally killing them. Not even ONE case should be allowed - especially because it is THAT easy to prevent all that by offering an option to keep a fixed amount in the bank - which is anyway the far better solution if it were really the goal to prevent unpaid bills.

[Martyp]

45 minutes ago, sidelines said:

Well said that man.

 

There has been nary a tremor on thaivisa.com so the numbers effected must be negligible, every woke individual either reads thaivisa or posts here. Anyway those pesky O-A visa holders had it coming, they were gaming the system. No money held hostage in a Thai bank for them.

 

The O route was obviously the way to go for retirement and the majority of thaivisa posters obviously went down that route. Far more sensible. O, we are alright Jack, no mandatory health insurance for us.

 

Yes, those on extensions of stay based on an original O-A entry are also caught up in this and need 800,000 baht in the bank plus mandatory health insurance from a Thai provider, even if they have far superior coverage from an insurance company not on the approved list.

 

But, hey, this is an even smaller demographic including a handful or so of over 70s with no hope of getting health coverage who face a very uncertain future. Surely it is not up to O visa holders and other retirees to worry about/encourage/assist these people who seemed to have not planned properly for their retirement.

 

Congratulations on your foresight. I came on an OA because it was easy to do and I thought coming with a visa in hand made more sense than coming as a tourist and spending three months in immigration and border bouncing. I’m on an extension now with qualified Thai insurance already. No gaming any system here. And of course, no one who came on an O is gaming the system  by using an agent to bribe their way past the financial requirements.

 

Most people are here with good intentions using the rules they had at the time. No need to dismiss those having problems now. Glad you are not affected by this.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Martyp

[Momofarang]

33 minutes ago, Martyp said:

Glad you are not affected by this.

Not yet...????

[Pib]

32 minutes ago, Martyp said:

Congratulations on your foresight. I came on an OA because it was easy to do and I thought coming with a visa in hand made more sense than coming as a tourist and spending three months in immigration and border bouncing. I’m on an extension now with qualified Thai insurance already. No gaming any system here. And of course, no one who came on an O is gaming the system  by using an agent to bribe their way past the financial requirements.

 

Most people are here with good intentions using the rules they had at the time. No need to dismiss those having problems now. Glad you are not affected by this.

Well said.  I also got an OA Visa 11 years ago before retiring/moving to Thailand as it was easy to get...the recommend visa at the time if over 50 and retiring to Thailand...guess that's why they call it a retirement visa.  Now on my 11th retirement extension of stay based on that OA visa from Christmas past. 

[Max69xl]

7 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Thank you  for making the case that each person who is an expat in Thailand needs to speak up by at the least writing to their Embassies; the Ministry of Foreign Affairs; the Ministry of Health amd ex[;ain why this change is unfair; unjust and probably  illegal.

 

If one never speaks up, one never  gets anything that is wrong changed.

 

Thailand can certainly demand health insurace for any on an O-A as long as the start date is 31 October 2019 but it is unjust to place a rule on people who have had an O-A for  decades, came into Thailand for a peaceful retirement and now find they are  over the age of even getting the coverage.

 

I have sent my letters- maybe it will do no good; byt maybe  hundreds and diplomatic notes will cause those in power to stop and think.  Actions like this have ramafications.

 

Just becaue you think it is impossible- doesn't mean you should not try for justice.

 

Instead of sitting around laughing at people who try to do the right thing- you might want to stop telling everyone what can;t be changed and write a letter.

I hope your embassy has bought a new "Industrial shredder machine". They will need it. 

[Max69xl]

7 minutes ago, Searat7 said:

You may think there is nary a tremor on TV but that is only because the moderators  have shut down new threads and most of the comments are on this one-currently at 95 pages. This is a big problem for many people and some of the issues are still not crystal clear. Your comments are very condescending to those of us affected by  these rather abrupt changes; many have properly planned for their retirement only to see dramatic changes in the rules during the last year which can really affect financial planning.  

It would have been at least 30 pages less if people on Non-Imm O based on retirement or marriage didn't ask if they were affected. 

[Maestro]

Removed an abusive post and a troll post.

[el jefe]

5 hours ago, Mango Bob said:

How about writing it in one of the newspapers about the injustice of the police order and immigration making it retroactive.  Also, the effect it has on those who can not get insurance

You want me to write an article in a newspaper? How do you propose I do that? If I'm going to waste time writing ineffective letters about injustice, I'll start with the Rohingya, the Uighurs, and the Syrians.

 

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

My visa/extension vitals: Original O-A in 2010, extensions based on retirement every year since. Next renewal, Aug 2020. 

 

Just checking. I think I have read every post in this thread over the 16 days since it was begun. Am I correct in saying, we still don't know if those of us facing renewals this year and next will need to show a Thai health insurance policy at the next renewal application? That's those of us who started out with O-As.

 

I am aware of reports that some embassies have sent or are planning to send diplomatic notes asking that the health insurance requirement be not made retroactive to holders of original O-A visas.  

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, Kaoboi Bebobp said:

Just checking. I think I have read every post in this thread over the 16 days since it was begun. Am I correct in saying, we still don't know if those of us facing renewals this year and next will need to show a Thai health insurance policy at the next renewal application? That's those of us who started out with O-As.

You are OK until well into next year! Fortunately you have time to see how the situation develops. 

 

 

[vivananahuahin]

49 minutes ago, Kaoboi Bebobp said:

My visa/extension vitals: Original O-A in 2010, extensions based on retirement every year since. Next renewal, Aug 2020. 

 

Just checking. I think I have read every post in this thread over the 16 days since it was begun. Am I correct in saying, we still don't know if those of us facing renewals this year and next will need to show a Thai health insurance policy at the next renewal application? That's those of us who started out with O-As.

 

I am aware of reports that some embassies have sent or are planning to send diplomatic notes asking that the health insurance requirement be not made retroactive to holders of original O-A visas.  

refused for the moment in Tha Yang i need go out the country and make a new Non O based on marriage,i am an old thing but have not yet issues,have a very good health insurance,2 surgeries in 8 years,all pay until the last baht,all costs one month before the operation and 3 months after,which thai insurance can you offer this?

[lamyai3]

2 hours ago, sidelines said:

Surely it is not up to O visa holders and other retirees to worry about/encourage/assist these people who seemed to have not planned properly for their retirement.

In what universe was the O-A ever not an appropriate visa for someone retiring in Thailand? That's been pretty much it's main purpose ever since it's existed. Most Thai embassies continue to describe it this way on their websites, just as they always have done.

 

Non O-A visas have a higher bar of entry than Non O's, and the extension requirements have always been identical until immigration suddenly saw fit to spring the new insurance rule on them, and then belatedly decided they'd also apply it to people who'd originated their extensions on O-A's, some well over a decade earlier. This is the very definition of unfair conduct, it's baffling that anyone in their right mind would try and excuse it.

 

To attempt to turn this into an argument about poor retirement planning shows a clear lack of understanding about what you're talking about, as does your claim that the Non O has always been the obvious route for retirement. Your post is complete twaddle.