O/A visa and insurance experience today

[Thaidream]

2 hours ago, el jefe said:

You want me to write an article in a newspaper? How do you propose I do that? If I'm going to waste time writing ineffective letters about injustice, I'll start with the Rohingya, the Uighurs, and the Syrians.

Don't write anything to anyone abut anything. No reason to do that  Better to sit back and  do nothing.  Your time is valuable and it won't do any good anyway.

[kingofthemountain]

7 hours ago, sidelines said:

The O route was obviously the way to go for retirement and the majority of thaivisa posters obviously went down that route. Far more sensible. O, we are alright Jack, no mandatory health insurance for us.

When i have decided to come in Thailand on a retirment visa

the only one available at the Thai consulate in Paris was the OA visa.

It was 6 years ago and it was not easy at all to get it.

Since this initial visa i have the 800 000 in a Thai bank for my anual extension of stay

but next year, due to the mandatory insurance, i have to change my plans.

So you are just lucky at the moment because you have actualy an O visa

but you should show a little bit more humility in your post because next year, or in 2 years

or at every moment it could (Probably) be your turn to be impacted too.

[MeePeeMai]

10 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

So you are just lucky at the moment because you have actualy an O visa

but you should show a little bit more humility in your post because next year, or in 2 years

or at every moment it could (Probably) be your turn to be impacted too.

 

Yea, I think this pretty much spells out the near future for EVERYONE visiting Thailand soon (regardless of visa status).  The writing is on the walls and the fat lady is getting ready to sing.

 

 

KEY WORDS:  TOURISTS AND FOREIGNERS OF ALL GROUPS

[Isaanbiker]

On 11/6/2019 at 9:36 AM, Andrew Dwyer said:

Seems about right.

They are saying “ you need the insurance, we will give you 30 days to get it then stamp you in for a year “

At least they are not refusing entry.

 

However, as he got stamped in for a year it just shows that Thai immigration are as confused as the rest of us !!

How could anybody be confused in this country with their very clear and easy to understand laws that change every month? 

 

 I accidentally mixed up my TM 7 form and gave them a TM 47, but they were asking me where my TM 30 was. 

 

   

 

     

 

  

[scubascuba3]

7 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Yea, I think this pretty much spells out the near future for EVERYONE visiting Thailand soon (regardless of visa status).  The writing is on the walls and the fat lady is getting ready to sing.

 

 

KEY WORDS:  TOURISTS AND FOREIGNERS OF ALL GROUPS

The authorities have a point with the old fellas 70-80+ who have no insurance OR money to pay for medical costs. These guys are causing the problem. There definitely needs to be two options though, health insurance or money in the bank, It's sensible but TiT

[Dave johns]

I have tried to get required health insurance for Viriyah and from AXA  the underwriters have made up Pre existing conditions that I don't have, and my Dr. confers that I don't have? 

[lopburi3]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

The authorities have a point with the old fellas 70-80+ who have no insurance OR money to pay for medical costs. These guys are causing the problem.

Actually I suspect the majority of the unpaid hospital bills are the results of those much younger having accidents, getting emergency treatment and then leaving the country to avoid paying bills as they have no travel insurance or don't feel the responsibility to pay. 

 

Those elder folks are mostly paying upfront bills and as living here have reason to pay and most will do, even if they have to pay with installments.  

 

They are shooting Old Yeller rather than the wolves. 

[scubascuba3]

3 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Actually I suspect the majority of the unpaid hospital bills are the results of those much younger having accidents, getting emergency treatment and then leaving the country to avoid paying bills as they have no travel insurance or don't feel the responsibility to pay. 

 

i think that's unlikely, travel insurance is very cheap in comparison to health insurance and as you get older you are more likely to need hospital treatment. Every year you are 10% more likely to die

[jacko45k]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

The authorities have a point with the old fellas 70-80+ who have no insurance OR money to pay for medical costs. These guys are causing the problem. There definitely needs to be two options though, health insurance or money in the bank, It's sensible but TiT

You are probably right, they are the types who might well end up in ICU for weeks on end, at umpteen 1000s per day. But there surely must be a large component of short term tourists who end up in hospital too, accidents etc and the number of tourists is substantial. Lots of Gofundme pages for these in Thai hospitals.

It seems logical to expect some required coverage for all us retired Expats.

[ubonjoe]

A inflammatory post and the expected replies to it have been removed.

[UncleMhee]

2 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Just for entering the country while the visa is valid a foreign insurance will be accepted, if you have the "foreign insurance certificate".

I think of my printed policy as a "foreign insurance certificate". Or are you talking about something else. 

I think it maybe a can of worms on your 2nd year entry where an IO may deny you because of not understanding the original policy actually lasts two years. Hopefully i'm wrong on that! Of course it could be clarified and noted on the visa by the embassy.

 

[ubonjoe]

47 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Actually I suspect the majority of the unpaid hospital bills are the results of those much younger having accidents, getting emergency treatment and then leaving the country to avoid paying bills as they have no travel insurance or don't feel the responsibility to pay. 

Those elder folks are mostly paying upfront bills and as living here have reason to pay and most will do, even if they have to pay with installments.  

I agree with you.

Immediately after the the cabinet resolution was done they  proposed a fee on entry to the country for tourists but it got shot down due to its effect on the tourism numbers.

I think they consider those on OA visas more likely to leave the country after running up medical bills than those on extensions of stay. Most people staying here on extensions of stay have stronger ties to the country and are unlikely to leave the country to avoid paying medical bills.

All the more reason for believing that immigrations intent for the police order is not for those applying for extensions of stay.

[Martyp]

23 minutes ago, UncleMhee said:

I think of my printed policy as a "foreign insurance certificate". Or are you talking about something else. 

I think it maybe a can of worms on your 2nd year entry where an IO may deny you because of not understanding the original policy actually lasts two years. Hopefully i'm wrong on that! Of course it could be clarified and noted on the visa by the embassy.

 

The insurance certificate is a one page summary of the policy with insurance directors signatures. The foreign insurance certificate is an example. The first page of my Pacific Cross Maxima written policy is the stamped and signed certificate. Immigration will want to see the certificate rather than try to read and interpret the full written policy.

[scubascuba3]

12 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I agree with you.

Immediately after the the cabinet resolution was done they  proposed a fee on entry to the country for tourists but it got shot down due to its effect on the tourism numbers.

I think they consider those on OA visas more likely to leave the country after running up medical bills than those on extensions of stay. Most people staying here on extensions of stay have stronger ties to the country and are unlikely to leave the country to avoid paying medical bills.

All the more reason for believing that immigrations intent for the police order is not for those applying for extensions of stay.

Makes sense...they don't like the idea of 100 baht fee on entry per tourist, instead prefer the circ 200k for health insurance for a 70-80 yo

[UncleMhee]

"They" may consider those uninsured on OA visas more likely to leave the country after running up medical bills, and in some cases that would be true. The same as in some cases people choose to overstay, while others use agents; though not for expediency.

 

And yes, if you live here 24/7/365 your connections to the country are definitely stronger; the argument though is somewhat tenuous if the only time the O-A holder leaves is for one weekend in two years to get the second year. Then only has a month at home having organised the main documents; police check online. It's then a rather simple matter of putting the application documents together and getting another visa and returning having been scrutinized in a different way.

Edited November 23, 2019 by UncleMhee

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

i think that's unlikely, travel insurance is very cheap in comparison to health insurance and as you get older you are more likely to need hospital treatment. Every year you are 10% more likely to die

Travel insurance may well be a lot cheaper when compared to health insurance, but a sizeable chunk of the tourist brigade still require some inducement to take out a suitable policy - which being cheerfully allowed to enter Thailand without one clearly does not provide!

[ubonjoe]

27 minutes ago, UncleMhee said:

And yes, if you live here 24/7/365 your connections to the country are definitely stronger; the argument though is somewhat tenuous if the only time the O-A holder leaves is for one weekend in two years to get the second year.

But I do not think that they have even thought of that.  You have to understand that the bureaucrats at the Ministry of Public Health that pushed for it have no clue about how people use the OA visa.

[scubascuba3]

17 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Travel insurance may well be a lot cheaper when compared to health insurance, but a sizeable chunk of the tourist brigade still require some inducement to take out a suitable policy - which being cheerfully allowed to enter Thailand without one clearly does not provide!

It's the same in every country I've visited, they don't insist on travel insurance, they realise if you need medical treatment whilst in their country you are liable, same here

[Peter Denis]

26 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Travel insurance may well be a lot cheaper when compared to health insurance, but a sizeable chunk of the tourist brigade still require some inducement to take out a suitable policy - which being cheerfully allowed to enter Thailand without one clearly does not provide!

Talking about travel-insurance > I made the effort to contact World Nomads, explaining the whole thing and specifically asking whether they would be inclined to provide the signed Certificate when I would take a full year travel-insurance policy with them.  I also made it clear that that would be a very very attractive proposition for most OA Visa holders, and hence a good business opportunity.

They had their legal department take a look at it, but they declined and from their responses it looks like it was more of a semantics issue > we do not do health-insurance.

The irony being that in their standard travel-policy the coverage when you get sick or have an accident and need treatment in a hospital is way beyond the ridiculous 400K/40K inbound-outbound patient care. 

And on top of that with their policy - which more than fully covers the health-insurance requirement - you would also get all other travel-insurance benefits (like repatriation, legal assistance, etc.) at a price comparable with what the approved thai health-insurance companies are offering for IO approved health-insurance policies.

A missed opportunity > but maybe it gets them thinking when more OA Visa holders approach them with similar questions.

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Peter Denis

[OJAS]

13 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Yea, I think this pretty much spells out the near future for EVERYONE visiting Thailand soon (regardless of visa status).  The writing is on the walls and the fat lady is getting ready to sing.

 

 

KEY WORDS:  TOURISTS AND FOREIGNERS OF ALL GROUPS

If any extension of the insurance requirement to tourists and foreigners of all groups is dependent on the outcome of an inter-governmental study, then we can, in practice, probably kiss goodbye to any chance of implementation any time soon, I think (despite the "urgency" which, it is claimed, will be applied to it). In the meantime, the Immigration Bureau will no doubt continue to target with whatever is still left of the expat retiree community with further "punitive" measures which will be applied with zeal and gusto as in the case of the insurance requirement.

Edited November 23, 2019 by OJAS

[jackdd]

8 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

it looks like it was more of a semantics issue

It's more of a "they don't cover things which a health insurance would cover" issue

https://www.worldnomads.com/eu/travel-insurance/whats-covered/travel-health

Edited November 23, 2019 by jackdd

[saiber]

20 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Talking about travel-insurance > I made the effort to contact World Nomads, explaining the whole thing and specifically asking whether they would be inclined to provide the signed Certificate when I would take a full year travel-insurance policy with them.  I also made it clear that that would be a very very attractive proposition for most OA Visa holders, and hence a good business opportunity.

They had their legal department take a look at it, but they declined and from their responses it looks like it was more of a semantics issue > we do not do health-insurance.

The irony being that in their standard travel-policy the coverage when you get sick or have an accident and need treatment in a hospital is way beyond the ridiculous 400K/40K inbound-outbound patient care. 

And on top of that with their policy - which more than fully covers the health-insurance requirement - you would also get all other travel-insurance benefits (like repatriation, legal assistance, etc.) at a price comparable with what the approved thai health-insurance companies are offering for IO approved health-insurance policies.

A missed opportunity > but maybe it gets them thinking when more OA Visa holders approach them with similar questions.

 

I did exactly the same with my German insurer ( Hanse Merkur ). They also checked and after a while I got the signed and stamped certificate posted back to me. 

[OJAS]

39 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

It's the same in every country I've visited, they don't insist on travel insurance, they realise if you need medical treatment whilst in their country you are liable, same here

You are equally liable if you are a tourist who incurs a major accident while indulging in a risky activity (like diving or riding a quad bike) without adequate (or, indeed, any) travel insurance cover. But, in stark contrast to their attitude towards retirees and health insurance, the powers-that-be in LOS seem remarkably chilled out and relaxed at the present time in comparison about hospitals being left with significant unpaid bills by tourists who have suffered negative consequences for participating in risky activities!

Edited November 23, 2019 by OJAS

[UKresonant]

13 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Yea, I think this pretty much spells out the near future for EVERYONE visiting Thailand soon (regardless of visa status).  The writing is on the walls and the fat lady is getting ready to sing.

 

 

KEY WORDS:  TOURISTS AND FOREIGNERS OF ALL GROUPS

It does look like they want to have an impractical solution contrived for all visa classes, if the same design team has been tasked with that. 

 

They obviously could not obtain a group policy to insure against their losses, and ask for a flat fee contribution (with transparency of their statistical information for justification of such a fee ????). 

 

Will they publish the O-A issuance rates pre&post October 31st?

[wealthychef]

On 11/6/2019 at 9:41 AM, Jingthing said:

Why would they refuse entry when a person is eligible for a 30 day stamp? 

they didn't.  They refused to honor the OA visa, but agreed to issue a tourist visa. 

[moontang]

20 hours ago, Pib said:

Well said.  I also got an OA Visa 11 years ago before retiring/moving to Thailand as it was easy to get...the recommend visa at the time if over 50 and retiring to Thailand...guess that's why they call it a retirement visa.  Now on my 11th retirement extension of stay based on that OA visa from Christmas past. 

Me too.  It was the easy way.  I lived thirty minutes from Kalorama, and O wasn't even a choice, and OA gave me almost two years with one in out at Maesai..also gave me time to bring over the 800k in chunks.  I haven't been to Make in 11 years and don't really miss it.  

[Thaidream]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

agree with you.

Immediately after the the cabinet resolution was done they  proposed a fee on entry to the country for tourists but it got shot down due to its effect on the tourism numbers.

I think they consider those on OA visas more likely to leave the country after running up medical bills than those on extensions of stay. Most people staying here on extensions of stay have stronger ties to the country and are unlikely to leave the country to avoid paying medical bills.

All the more reason for believing that immigrations intent for the police order is not for those applying for extensions of stay.

completely agree.  Just the numbers alone would leave one to believe that 30 Million tourists per year  versus 80,000 Long Stayers would generate many more bills due to motorcycle accidents; adventure tours; carelessness  etc.  The tourists are more prone to be taken to a private hospital to be treated where a long term expat who may not be able to get any insurace would go to a Government hospital and pay cash for their treatment.

 

I also agree that the Ministry of Health  has no  concept of how Insurance actually works- placing  people in  a separate group age 50-75 assures high prices and poor coverage as well as anyone above that age with few posibilities of even getting insurance.  The Malaysian long stay program has a medical insurance requirement but states that anyone who cannot obtain the insurance the requirement is waived.

 

If long stayers are placed in the Medical  portion of the Thai Social Security System-  they would pay a rate each month and be insured for  life.  The added income into the system would provide  good revenue and the excess used to cover losses to the 30 Baht scheme.

 

There are so many ways to get  long stayers the  proper coverage and access to Healthcare.  For whatever reason, they picked the worst scenario I could imagine and as a result nothing positive is achieved.

 

[moontang]

8 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

completely agree.  Just the numbers alone would leave one to believe that 30 Million tourists per year  versus 80,000 Long Stayers would generate many more bills due to motorcycle accidents; adventure tours; carelessness  etc.  The tourists are more prone to be taken to a private hospital to be treated where a long term expat who may not be able to get any insurace would go to a Government hospital and pay cash for their treatment.

 

I also agree that the Ministry of Health  has no  concept of how Insurance actually works- placing  people in  a separate group age 50-75 assures high prices and poor coverage as well as anyone above that age with few posibilities of even getting insurance.  The Malaysian long stay program has a medical insurance requirement but states that anyone who cannot obtain the insurance the requirement is waived.

 

If long stayers are placed in the Medical  portion of the Thai Social Security System-  they would pay a rate each month and be insured for  life.  The added income into the system would provide  good revenue and the excess used to cover losses to the 30 Baht scheme.

 

There are so many ways to get  long stayers the  proper coverage and access to Healthcare.  For whatever reason, they picked the worst scenario I could imagine and as a result nothing positive is achieved.

 

But social security is paid for by payroll deductions..and you seem to be underestimating the costs of caring for the elderly, even in Thailand.  Medicare expenses run about 15000 USD per person, per year in the US..even cutting that by 75%, you are talking about a large amount of money.

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, UncleMhee said:

I think of my printed policy as a "foreign insurance certificate". Or are you talking about something else. 

I think it maybe a can of worms on your 2nd year entry where an IO may deny you because of not understanding the original policy actually lasts two years. Hopefully i'm wrong on that! Of course it could be clarified and noted on the visa by the embassy.

 

He is very much talking about something else. Imm will not accept or review your policy.

 

There is an official "foreign policy certificate" which you download on the longstay.tgia website. But good luck getting a foreign insurance company to sign it.

 

However you ought not to need the certificate at entry if the Embassy or Consulate made the notation in your visa which they are supposed to, indicating that insurance requirement was met and showing the date the policy expires. You are supposed to provide the "foreign policy certificate" (and, often, policy documents) at visa application. Some Embassies/Consulates  may agree to accept policy document only if (as is usually the case) you cannot get the "foreign policy certificate" signed, but it is up to each Embassy/Consulate.

 

On any subsequent entries on the same visa (i.e. during the year the visa is still valid) they should go by the policy date indicated on the visa notation.

 

 

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Just the numbers alone would leave one to believe that 30 Million tourists per year  versus 80,000 Long Stayers would generate many more bills due to motorcycle accidents; adventure tours; carelessness  etc. 

The 80.000 long-stayers (retirees / over 50) comprise both the OA Visa holders and the O - retirement Visa holders.

I looked for but did not find any actual figures on the breakdown between those 2 categories.

Estimations range from 5% to 50% for the OA category > so I guess that 20 % will be close to the actual number.

Which means that approx 16.000 OA Visa holders will be affected by this health-insurance requirement, when IO enforces it on holders of OA Visas issued pre Oct 31.

The effect on unpaid hospital-bills of targeting that small population (compared to the 30 million visitors per year), will be negligible. 

And if the hidden idea was to create a lucrative extra income for the thai insurance-business, there are other schemes possible to ensure that retirees would consider subscribing to thai health-insurance, without creating the rightful outrage the present scheme has provoked.

Hope that reason prevails!  

Edited November 23, 2019 by Peter Denis