O/A visa and insurance experience today

[Exploring Thailand]

There have been a few comments suggesting that we write to our consulates and embassies to express our concerns. I wonder if it might be an idea to create a petition expressing our concerns and then all email our consulates and embassies with a link to the petition. It might carry more weight than a few individuals writing to various different embassies and consulates. I doubt many people will write actually write to the embassies, but I'd guess quite a few would sign an online petition. 

[La Migra]

When I read the police and immigration orders - I thought the insurance requirement applied to everyone entering on O-A Visas
after the 31st of October.  If it was the first, or subsequent entry - after the 31st you had to have the note from the Embassy or Consulate on the visa, or prove to the IO that you had the coverage.  Regardless of when the visa was issued.  From a policy implementation standpoint (the goal is to have the visa holders have insurance) this makes sense.

Sorry.

 

[britishjohn]

3 minutes ago, david555 said:

if they are difficult on this already , how they go treat the ones trying to change their non O-A to  the non"O".....? If they see started with the Non O-A

The thought did occur to me also, as this is exactly what I intend to do.

At the moment I'm feeling a bit trapped in Thailand as I'm not even certain I'll be allowed back in on my re entry permit.

[brianj1964]

7 minutes ago, britishjohn said:

When you enter the country on an OA in your first year you get a permission to stay for another year which allows you to get up to 2 years out of it before extending.

Maybe I got this all wrong but as I understand it, your permission to stay will only be granted for the insurance period.

If your insurance policy expires lets say around the same time as your visa, how will you be able to get an extra year out of it unless you take out a two year health policy ?

So my first year is good but I'm guessing if I leave and return to stretch the O/A to a second year I will need the insurance, I will wait to see if anyone else with the same visa that expires sooner than mine reports their experience here.

[britishjohn]

2 minutes ago, brianj1964 said:

So my first year is good but I'm guessing if I leave and return to stretch the O/A to a second year I will need the insurance, I will wait to see if anyone else with the same visa that expires sooner than mine reports their experience here.

What I'm saying is this, lets say you leave and re enter on the 11th month of your OA, normally you get another year permission to stay at that point. But what happens if your insurance policy only has a month left on it ?

[LivinLOS]

17 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Agreed-  even the Thai veresion states the order applies only to O-A Visa's issued after 31 Octobere 2019.  

 

How can a law/order/regulation apply to anyone who has a Visa/extension stamp  PRIOR to 31 October 2019.  This would make the change retroactive which in every country I have ever been- not only unfair but illegal.

 

If this is indeed the case- letters need to be written to the isuing Thai Embassy/Consulate with copies to the Foreign Minister- Ministry of Foreign Affairs and  the Health Minister-  Ministry of Health.   I can't remember if Thailand has an Attorney General but they also need to be notified.

 

 

Your reading it that way. 

 

The order states that it applies to OA visas. It also states that from the 31st October the following conditions will apply. 

 

Please highlight any text in the order which is not the way I describe, as I haven't noticed it.

[david555]

3 minutes ago, britishjohn said:

The thought did occur to me also, as this is exactly what I intend to do.

At the moment I'm feeling a bit trapped in Thailand as I'm not even certain I'll be allowed back in on my re entry permit.

I  get already longtime homesickness to the Shinnawatra era  les problems for us , China admirer in the drivers seat now

[Maestro]

Strange that a policy with deductible should not qualify, as it offers a better protection against unpaid hospital bills, for example with THB 300,000 deductible it covers expenses up to THB 700,000. The only reason I can think of for disallowing is the lower premium for a policy with deductible and if a percentage of the premium goes into somebody's pocket this reduces that person's income.

[Roy Baht]

48 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I was initially too but they just clarified this was a mistake. Can't take a deductible on a polucy issued to meet Imm requirements.

Yes, Thai-style insurance typically has zero deductible and limited coverage--the exact opposite of US-style insurance. (In fact, my agent had never heard of a "deductible". She also had never heard of 40K outpatient. No Thai gets that much.)  Also, they want to bundle it together with life insurance, which they say lessens the likelihood of them dropping you when you make a medical claim but increases the chance of your wife killing you.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Roy Baht

[Roy Baht]

20 minutes ago, david555 said:

if they are difficult on this already , how they go treat the ones trying to change their non O-A to  the non"O".....? If they see started with the Non O-A

They started with the OXs, have now moved to the OAs and I think eventually health insurance will be required for all long stay Os over 50. And all tourists will be required to chip in for some kind of travel/accident insurance.

[NewGuy]

I’m not sure if this is the right thread/forum to post my story.

 

Yesterday I went to Jomtien for an extension of my 15 year-old Non OA visa. The existing renewal date was December 5, 2019. I brought along copies of two sheets that showed my Aetna (previously BUPA) coverage. I don’t have out patient coverage. I’m 74.

 

They told me I needed insurance from one of the companies on the website already posted in this thread. They told me I had to use this website, not do it on my own. I spotted that one such company was Aetna, pointed this out and my application proceeded.
 

I picked up my passport today. The renewal date was changed to the date of the insurance policy (Nov 11, in my case). I had asked that I maintain my previous date as it was lucky (Dec 5, some will understand). They were firm saying the Non OA date would be changed to the policy date.

 

I did not bring up the outpatient issue.

 

I’ve been advised to change to a Non O visa next year by the bar crowd.  I will maintain my 165,000 Baht insurance 2,000,000 coverage). Later I will post a “how to do/should I do it” question when the dust has settled.

 

Cheers all.

Edited November 6, 2019 by NewGuy

[Exploring Thailand]

2 minutes ago, Maestro said:

Strange that a policy with deductible should not qualify, as it offers a better protection against unpaid hospital bills, for example with THB 300,000 deductible it covers expenses up to THB 700,000. The only reason I can think of for disallowing is the lower premium for a policy with deductible and if a percentage of the premium goes into somebody's pocket this reduces that person's income.

I think it will be because they are worried that the insured won't be able to find the first 300k. They've decided that you must have a minimum of 400k coverage. They won't be happy if 300k of that is a deductible.

[Sheryl]

18 minutes ago, britishjohn said:

What I'm saying is this, lets say you leave and re enter on the 11th month of your OA, normally you get another year permission to stay at that point. But what happens if your insurance policy only has a month left on it ?

You get stamped in for only the time remaining on your insurance. It is going to be a  hassle for people who travel out of the country often esoecially if on short notice. If just making 1 trip towards the end of the visa period to get another year, you just make sure to renew your insurance before that. Modt policies can be renewed in advance of the actual expiration date 

[david555]

1 minute ago, Roy Baht said:

They started with the OXs, have now moved to the OAs and I think eventually health insurance will be required for all long stay Os over 50. And all tourists will be required to chip in for some kind of travel/accident insurance.

Never had a problem followed all rules with my non O never an agent and aleway kept my more than 800+baht on the Thai bank , but I ask myself when it is my turn ..?

 

Anyway May 2022 i plan out Thai anyway back to home country , only hoping to strech it until then  ?

[Sheryl]

38 minutes ago, britishjohn said:

When you enter the country on an OA in your first year you get a permission to stay for another year which allows you to get up to 2 years out of it before extending.

Maybe I got this all wrong but as I understand it, your permission to stay will only be granted for the insurance period.

If your insurance policy expires lets say around the same time as your visa, how will you be able to get an extra year out of it unless you take out a two year health policy ?

You get a one year stay on each entry while the visa is valid. You get up to 2 years only if you leave and re enter just before the visa expires i.e. almost a year after your first entry  so just renew the insurance before that.

[Mango Bob]

58 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I was initially too but they just clarified this was a mistake. Can't take a deductible on a polucy issued to meet Imm requirements.

I was told this yesterday by the agent.  It is only on certain policies not all of them.  The Standard Extra policy they said I could.  The Standard Extra is not a imm policy.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Mango Bob

[GeorgeCross]

6 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

I think it will be because they are worried that the insured won't be able to find the first 300k. They've decided that you must have a minimum of 400k coverage. They won't be happy if 300k of that is a deductible.

 

they would be worried that a person who has been mandated to keep 400K in the bank wouldn't be able to find 300K? 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by GeorgeCross

[Exploring Thailand]

4 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

they would be worried that a person who has been mandated to keep 400K in the bank wouldn't be able to find 300K?

 

only in lalaland lols

 

That's the case for anyone extending an OA via a retirement extension, but those of us who have a current OA don't need to have any money in the bank. The same is true for new applications for an OA. You have to have money in the bank prior to the application, after the visa is granted the money is yours to do with as you wish. You can get an OA without a penny in a Thai bank.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Exploring Thailand

[Thaidream]

24 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

unfair maybe but illegal? doubt it, their country, their rules.

 

they changed the retirement extension financials retroactively this year too. maybe advise them of this too. 

They did not change the financials - so that is not an issue-  in the past when they change the financials they did indeed grandfather those already on extensions under the  old financials. Some people here on extensions for retirement  do not have to put  800K in the bank but 200K.

 

As far as  retroactive laws- the official term is ex post facto and  while I am not a lawyer- IMO  an ex post facto law is illegal.  For example- 5 years ago a person was caught smoking and fined 1000 Baht.  In 2019 the fine was raised to 5000 Baht.  There is no way the person caught 5 years ago would now have his case reconsidered and have to pay the other 4,000 Baht.

 

IMO this is the same issue-   the current police order states as of 31 October 2019 anyone  obtaining  an O-A Visa needs med insurance.  It says nothing about the law being applied retroactively.  IMO the extension issue applies only to anyone who has an O-A Visa with a date after 31 Oct 2019 that enters a Thai border/airport or extends the visa .

 

It absolutely makes no sense that this change in law/police order should be interpreted as applying to anyone with an O-A stamp PRIOR to 31 October 2019.  A foreign person in good faith applies and obtains an O-A Visa in 2000 and moves  their home to Thailand- extends year after year with the proper financials.  Now  that expat retiree is age 80- cannot obtain any health coverage.   Deny his extension?  Deport him?   

 

It is completely irrational to  make this requirement  retroactive......

 

 

[Maestro]

31 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Agreed-  even the Thai version states the order applies only to O-A Visa's issued after 31 Octobere 2019.

 

There are several documents out there about this health insurance requirement mentioning the date 31 October 2019. Which one are you referring to? Is it this paragraph in the Memorandum 0029.161/W 4603 dated 27.09.2019?

 

 

 

[zydeco]

4 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

they would be worried that a person who has been mandated to keep 400K in the bank wouldn't be able to find 300K? 

 

 

 

Maybe they're worried that if you go below 400,000 then you will not be able to get another extension and then they couldn't force you to buy more insurance.

[Sheryl]

43 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

...

How can a law/order/regulation apply to anyone who has a Visa/extension stamp  PRIOR to 31 October 2019.  This would make the change retroactive which in every country I have ever been- not only unfair but illegal.

 

 

Legally it is not retroactive because it is applied only to new permissions of stay/extensions of stay. Any permission already granted us protected until its end date and the order specifies this.

 

What many of us hadn't fully grasped -- myself included --  is that each extension of stay is for one year only with no guarantee of renewal and certainly no guarantee of renewal on the same terms as before.  Each extension is a totally new transaction.

 

Now in the past people who had entered the country prior to a certain date were "grandfathered" when eligibility criteria changed and I agree that would be the fairest thing to do. ...and what I had always assumed would be done. But they did not do that when they changed the rules for the 800k method (effectively adding a 400k bond to be posted) and they apparently haven't done so with the insurance requirement either though the wording is a bit unclear.

[Mango Bob]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

I was initially too but they just clarified this was a mistake. Can't take a deductible on a polucy issued to meet Imm requirements.

I was told this yesterday by the agent.  It is only on certain policies not all of them.  The Standard Extra policy they said I could.

[Mango Bob]

This what is says on the policy for the Standard Extra which is a 50% discount on the policy cost.

 

ส่วนลดเพิ่มเติม (Discount Options) ผู้เอาประกันภัยรับผิดชอบจ่ายค่ารักษาพยาบาล 300,000 บาทแรก 300,000 Baht Deductible Option (You pay the first 300,000 Baht of your eligible medical expenses)

 

[Thaidream]

3 minutes ago, Maestro said:

There are several documents out there about this health insurance requirement mentioning the date 31 October 2019. Which one are you referring to? Is it this paragraph in the Memorandum 0029.161/W 4603 dated 27.09.2019

The doccument I refer to is the actual Police Order in English and Thai which gives the effective date as 31 October 2019 and states only applies to O-A Visa.

 

The other Memoranda  refer to implementation- such as the Embassy marking the passport with a note re insurance.  Others refer to extnesions but my thinking is that the extension requirements apply only to  an O-A issued after  October 31, 2019 as at some point the person may go out of Thailand and re-enter (show the insurance again) and eventually some will extend their stay for a year by going to  Immigration- since the original O-A will be dated after 31 October 2019- subject to insurance.

 

In none of the docucments I have read does it say the order applies to anyone having an O-A original Visa PRIOR to 31 October 2019.   If the intent was to make this order retroactive- IMO it would have to have some implementation memo saying that was the case.  Have I missed seeing this docucment and does it exist?

[Maestro]

38 minutes ago, britishjohn said:

What I'm saying is this, lets say you leave and re enter on the 11th month of your OA, normally you get another year permission to stay at that point. But what happens if your insurance policy only has a month left on it ?

 

In the case you describe you should expect the immigration official at the entry point to act in accordance with this paragraph of the Memorandum 0029.161/W 4603 dated 27.09.2019:

 

[Sheryl]

16 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

There are several documents out there about this health insurance requirement mentioning the date 31 October 2019. Which one are you referring to? Is it this paragraph in the Memorandum 0029.161/W 4603 dated 27.09.2019?

 

 

 

 

Reading this one can understand why the IOs at entry points are applying it the way they are.

[Thaidream]

10 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Now in the past people who had entered the country prior to a certain date were "grandfathered" when eligibility criteria changed and I agree that would be the fairest thing to do. ...and what I had always assumed would be done. But they did not do that when they changed the rules for the 800k method (effectively adding a 400k bond to be posted) and they apparently haven't done so with the insurance requirement either though the wording is a bit unclear.

I understand  what you are saying- but  there was no real change in the 800K- it has remained the same amount- the grandthering came in when the actual amount was changed to 800K.

 

IMO-  if what you say is correct- they are changing their interpretation of  retroactive and ex post facto which IMO is still illegal and frankly needs to be challenged- hence letters to the proper ministries.

 

The sad thing is that people really do need proper insurance but what is being done is patently unfair because even if a person buys the sham coverage- they still do not have proper insurance.

[LivinLOS]

25 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

There are several documents out there about this health insurance requirement mentioning the date 31 October 2019. Which one are you referring to? Is it this paragraph in the Memorandum 0029.161/W 4603 dated 27.09.2019?

 

 

 

You can repeat it until blue in the face, and show them the precise text of the published documents, and yet they will continue to try to read it backwards. How can people claim its unclear, or badly worded, I simply dont know. 

IMO a lot of those comes from the official ThaiVisa line that it wouldnt apply to extensions, then it wouldnt apply to people arriving on a pre issued visa, etc etc.. I also dont understand why this line was so firmly stated as so many people who dont log in here daily believe what they read. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by LivinLOS

[Maestro]

39 minutes ago, Roy Baht said:

They started with the OXs, have now moved to the OAs and I think eventually health insurance will be required for all long stay Os over 50. And all tourists will be required to chip in for some kind of travel/accident insurance.

 

Paragraph 3 of the Cabinet resolution on 2 April 2019 has already laid the basis for the expansion of the health insurance requirements to other groups of foreigners: