Democrats accuse Trump of abusing power, obstructing impeachment probe

[Sujo]

8 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

Wow, has Adam Schiff being spying on a member of congress (Nunes)?

Good lord!

No, it was presented as evidence to the committee by the telecommunications company.

 

Good lord.

[JHolmesJr]

5 minutes ago, Sujo said:

No, it was presented as evidence to the committee by the telecommunications company.

 

Good lord.

 

what conspiracy theory does this give rise to in your mind?

[johnnybangkok]

4 hours ago, Puchaiyank said:

He has not done anything that would remove him from office...

I see we have the usual Trump apologists out again today.

Your POTUS (as he isn't that for a lot of people) has undermined the constitutional strength of the US from the day he was elected and with this debacle, is trying to say the office of POTUS is bigger and more important than the checks and balances put in place by the Founding Fathers.

Whether it's getting his people to ignore congressional subphoenas (John Eisenberg, legal adviser to the National Security Council, his deputy, Michael Ellis, Robert Blair, a top aide to acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, Mick Mulvaney himself and Brian McCormack, an aide at the White House Office of Management and Budget have all refused congressional subpoenas to appear at the hearings); or article 1 of the Constitution, which vests the House with the ‘sole power of impeachment' to which he has obstructed and directly challenged at every turn; or Clause 8 of the Constitution, which bars federal officeholders from accepting gifts from foreign governments (whilst Trump's continues to host foreign leaders in the Trump International Hotel in Washington or his attempt to get the G7 conference at Trump National in Miami amongst his many, many, many misdemeanors), his duty to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States' is obviously not there.

Whether you believe or don't believe Trump is guilty of 'high crimes and misdemeanors' there is a more important battle going on that will shape the US for decades to come. Does one man have the power and the ability to ignore congress and defy the Constitution that so many Americans hold sacred?

And let's be under no illusions, this is EXACTLY what Trump is doing. 

So cry 'pure theatre' or 'nothing to see here' but your willful ignorance of these very important points really negates all of your arguments and paints you as more anti-American than any Trump detractor can ever be as at least they have Americas interests at the very heart of their debate.

What do you have?

[Cory1848]

4 hours ago, Puchaiyank said:

He has not done anything that would remove him from office...

He has repeatedly compromised US national security for his own personal political gain. If that's not reason to remove him from office, I don't know what is.

[Cory1848]

19 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

45 wasn't buff like that even in his youth. What's with the 45 cult of personality to promote such ridiculous imagery? 

Google “Ben Garrison” for lots more of this stuff (the cookie jar cartoon posted earlier) -- Garrison always draws a buffed-up, movie-star Trump, and I guess Trump fans eat it up. I’m sure future historians will look at these cartoons (and lots of other things) in trying to assess the weird cultism of our own time.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Cory1848 said:

Google “Ben Garrison” for lots more of this stuff (the cookie jar cartoon posted earlier) -- Garrison always draws a buffed-up, movie-star Trump, and I guess Trump fans eat it up. I’m sure future historians will look at these cartoons (and lots of other things) in trying to assess the weird cultism of our own time.

My impression is that it's another symptom of the white supremacist theme of this very dangerous cult of personality movement. 

[Sujo]

49 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

 

what conspiracy theory does this give rise to in your mind?

I didnt state anything about it. You were the on jumping to a conspiracy conclusion.

 

I simply stated a fact to show your conspiracy theory was a typical trump fan fallacy.

[The Theory]

47 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

such ridiculous imagery?

I’m not really anyone’s fan, neither  Trump nor any any Democrat. In fact I believe that this “2 party game” will continue without any changes as long as there are always 2 players. 

[Becker]

Link: Impeachment Investigators Got Rudy Giuliani's Phone Records—And They’re Quite Revealing

 

"Rudy Giuliani and one of his indicted Ukrainian associates exchanged a flurry of phone calls with Rep. Devin Nunes (R-CA), the top Republican on Congress’ impeachment investigation panel, amid a Giuliani-led effort to dig up dirt on President Donald Trump’s political opponents in Ukraine.

The House Intelligence Committee obtained phone records from AT&T showing extensive communications in early April involving Nunes, Giuliani, Lev Parnas, and The Hill columnist John Solomon, according to records released in the committee’s formal report on its investigation underlying impeachment charges against President Donald Trump.

The records shed new light on the relationship between Nunes, one of the impeachment inquiries most vehement critics, and the individuals at the center of what committee Democrats describe as an illicit campaign to weaponize U.S. foreign policy to Trump’s political advantage."

 

Look, loooook, that's Biden over there. Don't look here, look over theeeeere!

Edited December 4, 2019 by Becker

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, The Theory said:

I’m not really anyone’s fan, neither  Trump nor any any Democrat. In fact I believe that this “2 party game” will continue without any changes as long as there are always 2 players. 

Uh huh. You post blatant 45 fan propaganda and you actually expect anyone to believe that you're not in that camp?

[The Theory]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

You post blatant 45 fan propaganda

I don’t care what others (or you) think about me ???? or they believe me or not. That was what it was. One more thing: I liked the graphic post. It says a lot.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, The Theory said:

I don’t care what others (or you) think about me ???? or they believe me or not. That was what it was. One more thing: I liked the graphic post. It says a lot.

It's extreme pro 45 propaganda which of course you're free to like a lot. Bye.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Jingthing

[Cory1848]

43 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My impression is that it's another symptom of the white supremacist theme of this very dangerous cult of personality movement. 

Garrison’s drawings are totally racist; his depictions of blacks and other minorities recall cartoon depictions of Irish people at the turn of the twentieth century, before the Irish became white. Trump of course was flattered by the depictions of himself and invited Garrison to a “Social Media Summit” at the White House earlier this year, but after serious blowback Garrison got disinvited; there was some news coverage of that. The fact that his cartoons appear everywhere, including forums like this one, is, as you mention, symptomatic of the era.

[Cory1848]

13 minutes ago, The Theory said:

I don’t care what others (or you) think about me ???? or they believe me or not. That was what it was. One more thing: I liked the graphic post. It says a lot.

Yeah. It says a lot.

[Thaidream]

6 hours ago, smutcakes said:

am far from a Trump Lover, but i do get the sneaking feeling that all these ongoing impeachment process, moaning and groaning by the Democrats is not going to do them any favors come vote time.

 

Personally i would just prefer them to get on with trying to win votes, publicizing their policies on what and how they will go about being in power.

 

CNN for me is nearly unwatchable, they have literally been beating the same drum for 4 years, 24 hours a day. There is simply no news, no independence- literally all they, their panelists and guests do is whinge about this and that.

 

As a neutral, and i suspect many others it pushes me away from the Democrats rather than leading me to vote for them. (The fact that their nomination lineup is so uninspiring does not help either)

I would agrre-  Trump admitted that he did what the Dems said he did but he believes it was not wrong and most of his supporters also believe it was not wrong.

 

IMO, it was wrong and an abuse of power but for it to rise to an impeachable offense- there has to be a real consense amongst the American people that he mustbe removed.

 

There is no such consensus.  The Republican Congress is not seeking his Impeachment and there is no way the Senate will convict him.

 

As much as I dislike Trump and believe he is a horrible President- I want the impeachment investigation to end in a censure only.

 

Let the 2020 vote move forward . Either the Dems can defeat him or not.  IMO, if the impeachment moves forward and Trump is acquitted in the Senate- he will be re-elected.

 

[Mick501]

Quote

 

Dems have been accusing Trump of one thing or other for his entire presidency, and no doubt will continue to do so through his second term.  It's gotten to the point where now it's just white noise to all but the most rabid Dems.

 

If they devoted to same energy to policy development they'd be unbeatable, but apparently endless anger at losing is their preferred strategy.

[Becker]

14 minutes ago, Mick501 said:

Dems have been accusing Trump of one thing or other for his entire presidency, and no doubt will continue to do so through his second term.  It's gotten to the point where now it's just white noise to all but the most rabid Dems.

 

If they devoted to same energy to policy development they'd be unbeatable, but apparently endless anger at losing is their preferred strategy.

Meanwhile, in the real world....

 

Link: Impeachment report finds 'stark evidence of misconduct'

 

"Withering in tone and rich with detail, the 300-page impeachment report released by the House Intelligence Committee on Tuesday afternoon sharpened congressional Democrats’ case against President Trump, whom it charged with the “prioritization of his personal political benefit over the national interest.”

The report contains no articles of impeachment; those will be drafted by the House Judiciary Committee, which will hold its own hearing Wednesday. But the report clearly lays out the case against Trump, alleging he exerted improper pressure on Ukraine in seeking an investigation into his political rival, and that he subsequently attempted to obstruct the congressional investigation into that pressure campaign."

[JCauto]

6 hours ago, smutcakes said:

I am far from a Trump Lover, but i do get the sneaking feeling that all these ongoing impeachment process, moaning and groaning by the Democrats is not going to do them any favors come vote time.

 

Personally i would just prefer them to get on with trying to win votes, publicizing their policies on what and how they will go about being in power.

 

CNN for me is nearly unwatchable, they have literally been beating the same drum for 4 years, 24 hours a day. There is simply no news, no independence- literally all they, their panelists and guests do is whinge about this and that.

 

As a neutral, and i suspect many others it pushes me away from the Democrats rather than leading me to vote for them. (The fact that their nomination lineup is so uninspiring does not help either)

So you don't believe that Presidents or Congress are required to follow the law or the constitution? 

 

You don't understand that what Trump has been proven to have done is clearly use of his office for personal political gain? 

You don't understand the clearly spoken words of insiders who were directed to ensure the Ukrainians launched the fraudulent investigation in return for freeing of $400 Million of military aid they desperately needed to thwart Russian aggression in the Crimea? Such as Trump's personally appointed and directed Ambassador to the EU who stated in English "I know that members of this committee have frequently framed these complicated issues in the form of a simple question: Was there a 'quid pro quo?' As I testified previously, with regard to the requested White House call and White House meeting, the answer is yes," Sondland said.

 

Or are you going to try to parse that as meaning "something else"? The White House and GOP case against the Impeachment has shifted from "no quid pro quo" to "doesn't matter if it was" to "WHAT ABOUT HUNTER BIDEN AND CROWDSTRIKE", two completely and fully debunked conspiracy theories.

So, to be clear, you don't believe the sworn testimony under oath of a range of highly respected non-partisan civil service professionals and Trump appointees who all confirmed the above. You do believe the ones who cast doubt on the quid pro quo (until it was proven to be true), then built a case that there was nothing illegal if there were a quid pro quo (until it was demonstrated that this is a clearer constitutional violation than anything Nixon did) and are now reduced to spouting disproven conspiracy theories propagated by Vladimir Putin, who always has the US best interests at heart. Don't see anything wrong with your logic there?

 

Oh, one last thing - the reason there has been no testimony from those who directly heard Trump say anything directly is that the White House has forbidden anyone from testifying, in defiance of legally compelling subpeonas from Congress. Note that no criminal has ever been set free because they had overwhelming evidence from others of a criminal action but that nobody had clearly recorded them saying that they done it.

 

 

[malibukid]

Donny Boy your going down.  just save us some $$$ and do the honorable thing.  go back to doing what you are good at, like swindling some contractors.

[malibukid]

28 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I would agrre-  Trump admitted that he did what the Dems said he did but he believes it was not wrong and most of his supporters also believe it was not wrong.

 

IMO, it was wrong and an abuse of power but for it to rise to an impeachable offense- there has to be a real consense amongst the American people that he mustbe removed.

 

There is no such consensus.  The Republican Congress is not seeking his Impeachment and there is no way the Senate will convict him.

 

As much as I dislike Trump and believe he is a horrible President- I want the impeachment investigation to end in a censure only.

 

Let the 2020 vote move forward . Either the Dems can defeat him or not.  IMO, if the impeachment moves forward and Trump is acquitted in the Senate- he will be re-elected.

 

most of the  America's know deleted about constitutional law

[Becker]

13 minutes ago, malibukid said:

Donny Boy your going down.  just save us some $$$ and do the honorable thing.  go back to doing what you are good at, like swindling some contractors.

Actually, he was caught so he sucks even at that. He should go back to declaring bankruptcy. He's done it six times already so I'm sure he'll get the hang of it in the end.

 

PS. Come to think of it there actually was one thing he succeeded in doing on the first try and that was running like a chicken when his country came calling and asked of him to do his duty, and when you think about it that's no mean feat considering his debilitating bone spur condition!

Edited December 4, 2019 by Becker

[buick]

there is zero chance of president trump being impeached.  it won't make it through the senate.  the republican's risk losing the presidency (meaning another candidate in 2020) if some of them rollover and make the impeachment happen in the senate.  they'd rather keep trump as their candidate for 2020 than turn it over to the democrats.

 

unfortunately facts and such don't really come into play in these political games.  it is all about keeping your party in control.  lies will be told millions of times in these efforts, and that is just during the period of one presidential election (and the lies will be told by both parties).

 

 

[atyclb]

8 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

 

There certainly is no shortage of constitutional law scholars here.

 

LMAO and rumour has it but one of them actually attended law school and was admitted to the bar

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, buick said:

there is zero chance of president trump being impeached.  it won't make it through the senate.  the republican's risk losing the presidency (meaning another candidate in 2020) if some of them rollover and make the impeachment happen in the senate.  they'd rather keep trump as their candidate for 2020 than turn it over to the democrats.

 

unfortunately facts and such don't really come into play in these political games.  it is all about keeping your party in control.  lies will be told millions of times in these efforts, and that is just during the period of one presidential election (and the lies will be told by both parties).

 

 

You're incorrectly not separating impeachment in the house with conviction in the senate. Hint - - Bill Clinton was impeached and 45 probably will be as well. 

[atyclb]

i am a usa lifelong registered democrat but this whole thing is beyond silly already at very least from the point of mueller testimony.  sure there are reasonable dem politicians but the ones leading the 3 ring circus damage the entire party

[Skallywag]

4 hours ago, Puchaiyank said:

The VP and others have taken the position that any response would appear to dignify an otherwise farsal Democratic show...

Impeachment is a process that exists under constitutional law.  It is not a "Democratic show" .  The withholding of the appropriated military aid to the Ukraine was illegal. "No one from the Trump administration has been able to point to any legal authority that allowed Trump to withhold the military aid to the Ukraine."  

They do not respond because they have no proof that POTUS was performing his duties legally.

[candide]

3 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

Wow, has Adam Schiff being spying on a member of congress (Nunes)?

Good lord!

 

3 hours ago, Sujo said:

No, it was presented as evidence to the committee by the telecommunications company.

 

Good lord.

And also confirmed by Giuliani associate's lawyer.

Wait! Didn't Nunes state that he would sue CNN and the Daily beast for diffusing the lawyer's statement? ????

https://www.vox.com/2019/11/25/20982011/nunes-cnn-daily-beast-lawsuits-parnas-ukraine

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by candide

[Becker]

20 minutes ago, atyclb said:

i am a usa lifelong registered democrat.......

Sure you are....

[Cory1848]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

I would agrre-  Trump admitted that he did what the Dems said he did but he believes it was not wrong and most of his supporters also believe it was not wrong.

 

IMO, it was wrong and an abuse of power but for it to rise to an impeachable offense- there has to be a real consense amongst the American people that he mustbe removed.

 

There is no such consensus.  The Republican Congress is not seeking his Impeachment and there is no way the Senate will convict him.

 

As much as I dislike Trump and believe he is a horrible President- I want the impeachment investigation to end in a censure only.

 

Let the 2020 vote move forward . Either the Dems can defeat him or not.  IMO, if the impeachment moves forward and Trump is acquitted in the Senate- he will be re-elected.

 

It is irrelevant what Trump “believes” (ignorance of the law is no excuse). If his supporters also “believe” that his bribing of a foreign leader (for instance) was not wrong, then I can only suggest a stronger emphasis on basic civics and the Constitution in primary education. Whether or not an action is impeachable is not dependent on the “consensus” of the American people; it is firmly based in the Constitution (see above) and in law.

 

The House Intelligence Committee has made a strong case for impeachment, and it was their constitutional duty to examine just that, given the rather flagrant evidence that kept flying in their face. If Senate Republicans continue with the charade that Trump is innocent of wrongdoing, then they are most definitely NOT following their constitutional duty, and if there were any justice they would be duly voted out of office for dereliction of duty.

 

Sadly, what you write otherwise may indeed be how things play out, although even if he’s acquitted in the Senate, hopefully he’ll be so tarnished by the process that most voters will turn on him ...

[Becker]

Link: Lev Parnas' lawyer publicly shames Devin Nunes for not recusing himself from impeachment hearing