Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[sandyf]

25 minutes ago, transam said:

.......leave the UK and be controlled by Brussels and big daddy Germany.....????

Nothing wrong with that, and England can be the 51st state, win,win, all round.

[transam]

3 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Nothing wrong with that, and England can be the 51st state, win,win, all round.

I think you maybe a little confused, but then I expect that.

Great news about the UK and Japan getting things together eh....

[welovesundaysatspace]

41 minutes ago, teatree said:

Ha...if the UK is such an oppressive, Soivet style dictatorship then why did it allow a democratic referendum on Scotland leaving?  What a load of dribble.

You answered your own question: As a vassal state in the UKSSR, you have to beg someone to “allow” you a referendum. If Scotland was a sovereign state, it could decide these matters on their own. That’s how being an EU member is different from being an UKSSR vassal. 

[teatree]

20 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You answered your own question: As a vassal state in the UKSSR, you have to beg someone to “allow” you a referendum. If Scotland was a sovereign state, it could decide these matters on their own. That’s how being an EU member is different from being an UKSSR vassal. 

You could say that about any country.  If England wanted out it would need permission from Westminster (that is how a country works).  If Lombardy wanted out of Italy it would need to go through Rome. Etc etc etc.

 

The difference is that the UK is one of the very few countries willing to allow democracy to follow its course and let the people decide.  Therefore calling it the UKSSR is frankly absurd and makes you look like a rabid English hater.

[welovesundaysatspace]

4 minutes ago, teatree said:

You could say that about any country.  If England wanted out it would need permission from Westminster (that is how a country works).  If Lombardy wanted out of Italy it would need to go through Rome. Etc etc etc.

EU member states don’t need ask for permission to leave (or even just permission to hold a referendum). 

 

Quote

 

The difference is that the UK is one of the very few countries willing to allow democracy to follow its course and let the people decide.

It doesn’t. If it did, it would let the Scots decide their own fate. But it doesn’t. 
 

Quote

Therefore calling it the UKSSR is frankly absurd and makes you look like a rabid English hater.

I’m just using the Brexiteer rhetoric and turn it against them. I don’t hate England. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by welovesundaysatspace

[teatree]

25 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

EU member states don’t need ask for permission to leave (or even just permission to hold a referendum). 

 

It doesn’t. If it did, it would let the Scots decide their own fate. But it doesn’t. 
 

I’m just using the Brexiteer rhetoric and turn it against them. I don’t hate England. 

Scotland is part of the country called the UK.  It has devolved powers but cannot unilaterally vote to leave under current arrangements.  It had a chance to leave this arrangement but declined.  That is the way it is right now....a region of a country, just as England, Wales and NI are.  And any region in any part of any country in the world would have to go a similar process to Scotland if they wanted independence so please don't give me all this oppresion nonsense.  Scotland could have voted out and more importantly they had the chance.

 

Of course the EU and the UK are different.  One is a country and one is a bloc of countries.  I am not arguing against that.  I just don't see being part of the EU as independence.  Perhaps it would mean more independence than part of the UK, but still not true independence.

 

One thing you should consider about the EU is that had the UK government refused to grant a referendum (as Spain did with Catalonia) then the EU would have backed it to the hilt (as it did when Spain refused to grant Catalania a referendum).  Seems the EU isnt as much of a believer in democracy as the UK...hmmmm who would have guessed?

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

I'll take that as a yes then shall I. If we didn't share a border I would quite likely agree with you, and with a border comes extra responsibilities like our countries security. Of course should you get your separation from England and then ask to join the EU, the EU would stipulate a hard border between us. So don't trivialise the separation, it has a lot to do with the rest of the UK and England.

But that is a very distant second in terms of importance. There are more countries with land borders than not - there is no reason that Scotland and England cannot make it work. 

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, transam said:

No, its about MP's. No good dismissing the fact that Scots controlled the UK for many years..The SNP has one objective, removing itself from the Union, that's it. 

Of course that's it - but it's hardly news. That is what I have been supporting for the past 30 years, and what they have been working towards.

 

I must point out that one of the challenges from unionists is that we are all one UK and that regional differences are not played out at national level. You clearly don't subscribe to that view.

[jak2002003]

How come the people that were so into UK leaving EU are the ones so against Scotland having independents? 

 

And the people that wanted to stay in the EU are the ones that want Scotland to have independents???

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

But that is a very distant second in terms of importance. There are more countries with land borders than not - there is no reason that Scotland and England cannot make it work. 

How come it's second in terms of importance, because you say so? It cannot possibly work, you'll have two goverments pulling in opposite directions and never the twain shall meet.

I saw a Survation poll recently but am unable to locate it now stating that in terms of priorities that separation is about 7th on the list, but in your leaders eyes it is number 1 priority, she was put on this earth to separate the Scots from the English. 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

How come it's second in terms of importance, because you say so? It cannot possibly work, you'll have two goverments pulling in opposite directions and never the twain shall meet.

 

Of course it is my opinion - if you can find a way to objectively rank such matters then I am all ears. 

 

And so what if our governments have different perspectives and objectives? How do you think other countries manage? Scotland is England's second biggest export market, and England is equally important to Scotland in terms of trade. Of course they will make it work like any other neighbouring countries. 

 

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

I saw a Survation poll recently but am unable to locate it now stating that in terms of priorities that separation is about 7th on the list, but in your leaders eyes it is number 1 priority, she was put on this earth to separate the Scots from the English. 

That is somewhat melodramatic - there is no plan that I am aware of for a Trumpian wall to be built. If a border can work between Northern Ireland and the republic, there is absolutely no reason that a similar crossing cannot be implemented between Scotland and England. 

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

How come the people that were so into UK leaving EU are the ones so against Scotland having independents? 

 

And the people that wanted to stay in the EU are the ones that want Scotland to have independents???

It's very simple - the nature of the EU is very much more democratic than that of the UK. 

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

How come the people that were so into UK leaving EU are the ones so against Scotland having independents? 

 

And the people that wanted to stay in the EU are the ones that want Scotland to have independents???

Because the UK had a democratic (damn, the D word again) vote in 2016 and decided to leave the EU, likewise the Scots had a democratic vote in 2014 to remain within the United Kingdom, the problems start to arise when democratic votes are ignored by the losing side.

[7by7]

21 hours ago, vogie said:

21 hours ago, stevenl said:

So England determines what happens to Scotland? You're being ridiculous.

 

So EU should determine the faith of UK leaving or not? You're being hypocritical.

Sorry I just can't compete with posters who don't think that breaking up the UK is nothing to do with the rest of the UK.

You have made a post that is senseless and you're calling me ridiculous. Goodbye!

In your quote you have (deliberately?) removed the important part of the post which shows his point is not about breaking up the UK!

 

Namely

21 hours ago, stevenl said:

Btw, the remark you're answering to was a reply to a post that mentioned Scottish internal affairs, so 'nothing to do with England'.

 

This is correct. Powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament deal with Scottish internal affairs and thus are nothing to do with England.

 

But this was also the case long before devolution; possibly all the way back to the Acts of Union!

 

For the basics I suggest that you read up on the West Lothian question.

Quote

The "West Lothian question" itself was first posed in 1977 during a British House of Commons debate about Scottish and Welsh devolution proposals. In the 14 November sitting, Tam Dalyell, the Labour MP for the Scottish constituency of West Lothian, asked,

For how long will English constituencies and English Honourable members tolerate ... at least 119 Honourable Members from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland exercising an important, and probably often decisive, effect on English politics while they themselves have no say in the same matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

40 minutes ago, teatree said:

Scotland is part of the country called the UK.

The United Kingdom comprises of four countries. Scotland is one of it. 
 

Quote

  It has devolved powers but cannot unilaterally vote to leave under current arrangements.  It had a chance to leave this arrangement but declined.  That is the way it is right now....

Exactly. So you agree to what I said: A member country of the UK is not sovereign. Otherwise it could unilaterally decide to leave. 

 

Quote

I just don't see being part of the EU as independence.  Perhaps it would mean more independence than part of the UK, but still not true independence.

The big difference is that EU member states can sovereignly decide on their own whether they are ok with trading a bit of independence for the benefits of the membership. Same as I as an individual can decide to hand over a bit of my personal independence to my employer in return for a paycheck, but no one can force me to stay in that relationship. That’s a big difference to being a member of the UK.  

 

Quote

One thing you should consider about the EU is that had the UK government refused to grant a referendum (as Spain did with Catalonia) then the EU would have backed it to the hilt (as it did when Spain refused to grant Catalania a referendum).  Seems the EU isnt as much of a believer in democracy as the UK...hmmmm who would have guessed?

I don’t know what the EU would have done. I don’t have a white crystal ball. What would you expect the EU to do that you consider “democracy”?
 

Edited July 30, 2020 by welovesundaysatspace

[Phulublub]

I wonder if we have any anti-Independence Scots here?  Or even any anti-Independence English,Welsh or NIrish who have lived in Scotland for any significant length of time? 

 

I would suggest the latter group really, really, really do not understand, or do not want to understand. 

 

I lived in Scotland for more than half my life, voted against independence, but did so for the same reasons I voted Remain in the EU referendum - I believe we are better off working together closely with our neighbours and friends.  And in a political Unon where we have influence to help steer changes rather than outside where we are subject to them without any real input.  It did not help that the SNP lied (abusing many of the same arguments that the Brexiters used). 

 

I respect the likes of Jim Sillars and Margo McDonald who set for the their case but honestly acknowledged that there would be economic costs - something Salmond et al refused to do and sincerely wish we had more leaders like them who give an honest appraisal and allow voters to reach their decision on facts and truly held beliefs rather than spin, liesand deciet.

 

But with the UK leaving the EU, I wonder how I would vote tomorrow if I still lived in Scotland and there was another independence vote.

 

PH

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Phulublub

[melvinmelvin]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

Because the UK had a democratic (damn, the D word again) vote in 2016 and decided to leave the EU, likewise the Scots had a democratic vote in 2014 to remain within the United Kingdom, the problems start to arise when democratic votes are ignored by the losing side.

not ignored

 

uk is leaving xmas time

scotland is still there

 

 

[7by7]

5 hours ago, vogie said:

Of course should you get your separation from England and then ask to join the EU, the EU would stipulate a hard border between us. So don't trivialise the separation, it has a lot to do with the rest of the UK and England.

 But the hard border between one part of the UK, Great Britain, and another part, Northern Ireland, conceded in the Brexit negotiations by Cummings and Johnson is ok with you?

 

Consistency is not one of your strongpoints!

[7by7]

5 hours ago, transam said:

No, its about MP's. No good dismissing the fact that Scots controlled the UK for many years..

 Labour controlled the UK for 13 years under Blair and Brown. But could only do so with the backing of English and Welsh MPs!

 

5 hours ago, transam said:

The SNP has one objective, removing itself from the Union, that's it. 

Wow! Who'd have thought it! Maybe that's why they call themselves the Scottish Nationalist Party!

[transam]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 Labour controlled the UK for 13 years under Blair and Brown. But could only do so with the backing of English and Welsh MPs!

 

Wow! Who'd have thought it! Maybe that's why they call themselves the Scottish Nationalist Party!

Oh, hello..........????

[Rookiescot]

58 minutes ago, teatree said:

Scotland is part of the country called the UK.  It has devolved powers but cannot unilaterally vote to leave under current arrangements.  It had a chance to leave this arrangement but declined.  That is the way it is right now....a region of a country, just as England, Wales and NI are.  And any region in any part of any country in the world would have to go a similar process to Scotland if they wanted independence so please don't give me all this oppresion nonsense.  Scotland could have voted out and more importantly they had the chance.

 

Of course the EU and the UK are different.  One is a country and one is a bloc of countries.  I am not arguing against that.  I just don't see being part of the EU as independence.  Perhaps it would mean more independence than part of the UK, but still not true independence.

 

One thing you should consider about the EU is that had the UK government refused to grant a referendum (as Spain did with Catalonia) then the EU would have backed it to the hilt (as it did when Spain refused to grant Catalania a referendum).  Seems the EU isnt as much of a believer in democracy as the UK...hmmmm who would have guessed?

Your entire argument just fell apart.

Scotland is not a region. It is a country. You giving examples of regions in Spain and Italy are simply not comparable.  

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

not ignored

 

uk is leaving xmas time

scotland is still there

 

 

Of course you are correct melvin, four years on and the remainers are still crying in their soup, as for the Scots Nats, substitute soup for porridge.????

[teatree]

7 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

The United Kingdom comprises of four countries. Scotland is one of it. 
 

Exactly. So you agree to what I said: A member country of the UK is not a sovereign state. Otherwise it could unilaterally decide to leave. 

 

The big difference is that EU member states can sovereignly decide on their own whether they are ok with trading a bit of independence for the benefits of the membership. Same as I as an individual can decide to hand over a bit of my personal independence to my employer in return for a paycheck, but no one can force me to stay in that relationship. That’s a big difference to being a member of the UK.  

 

I don’t know what the EU would have done. I don’t have a white crystal ball. What would you expect the EU to do that you consider “democracy”?
 

I think you need to distinguish between two different definitions of what country means.

 

The UK is a country.  Technically speaking.  It has a capital (London) and its goverenment is elected by the constituants of whole of the UK and represented at Westminster.  THIS IS THE SOVEREIGN STATE.  

 

England, NI, Scotland and Wales are also countries individually but not in the same sense.  It is more of a culural and ethnic sense of the word.  Individually these countries may have some devolution but they are still underneath the UK. So no, individually they are not sovereign states.  The sovereign state is the UK.

 

Sayimg that Sturgeon should have unilateral rights to declare independence is like saying  the Lomdon Assembley should have the same rights to declare an independent London city state.  No, they are both part of the UK governmemt at Westminster (you know the UK as a country in the 1st definition above, the one connected with law) and must 1st seek approval from the UK parliamemt.

[7by7]

29 minutes ago, vogie said:

Because the UK had a democratic (damn, the D word again) vote in 2016 and decided to leave the EU, likewise the Scots had a democratic vote in 2014 to remain within the United Kingdom, the problems start to arise when democratic votes are ignored by the losing side.

 The basis of the 2014 vote was whether or not Scotland should remain in a UK which was a member of the EU.

 

The UK is no longer a member of the EU; totally different situation.

 

You go on and on about democracy; but wont allow the Scots to decide on the issue again after such a major change of circumstances.

 

Afraid of losing if they were given that choice?

[teatree]

10 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Your entire argument just fell apart.

Scotland is not a region. It is a country. You giving examples of regions in Spain and Italy are simply not comparable.  

Catalonia has its own language.

 

The Basque region has its iwn language and terrorists willing to kill to get independence.  Do your homework son.

 

And tecnically speaking the UK is the country.  In legal terms the UK is the sovereign state based in London.  

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by teatree

[stevenl]

8 minutes ago, teatree said:

I think you need to distinguish between two different definitions of what country means.

 

The UK is a country.  Technically speaking.  It has a capital (London) and its goverenment is elected by the constituants of whole of the UK and represented at Westminster.  THIS IS THE SOVEREIGN STATE.  

 

England, NI, Scotland and Wales are also countries individually but not in the same sense.  It is more of a culural and ethnic sense of the word.  Individually these countries may have some devolution but they are still underneath the UK. So no, individually they are not sovereign states.  The sovereign state is the UK.

 

Sayimg that Sturgeon should have unilateral rights to declare independence is like saying  the Lomdon Assembley should have the same rights to declare an independent London city state.  No, they are both part of the UK governmemt at Westminster (you know the UK as a country in the 1st definition above, the one connected with law) and must 1st seek approval from the UK parliamemt.

Totally wrong. Scotland is a country with it's own parliament. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom

Edited July 30, 2020 by stevenl

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, teatree said:

Catalonia has its pwn language.

 

And tecnically speaking the UK is the country.  In legal terms the UK is the sovereign state based in London.  

 

 

Scotland has its own legal system. Yet another clue that it is a country not a region.

Regional language differences is a completely asinine point. If countries were defined by language what would happen to Switzerland? Or Austria? Or Belgium? Or any one of about 30 countries worldwide which encompass different languages?

 

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, teatree said:

I think you need to distinguish between two different definitions of what country means.

 

The UK is a country.  Technically speaking.  It has a capital (London) and its goverenment is elected by the constituants of whole of the UK and represented at Westminster.  THIS IS THE SOVEREIGN STATE.  

 

England, NI, Scotland and Wales are also countries individually but not in the same sense.  It is more of a culural and ethnic sense of the word.  Individually these countries may have some devolution but they are still underneath the UK. So no, individually they are not sovereign states.  The sovereign state is the UK.

 

Sayimg that Sturgeon should have unilateral rights to declare independence is like saying  the Lomdon Assembley should have the same rights to declare an independent London city state.  No, they are both part of the UK governmemt at Westminster (you know the UK as a country in the 1st definition above, the one connected with law) and must 1st seek approval from the UK parliamemt.

Technically speaking, that is a load of nonsense. I suggest you read up a bit more about sovereignty within the different countries of the UK, specifically in relation to the Claim of Right 1989.

 

"On 4 July 2018, the House of Commons officially endorsed the principles of the Claim of Right, agreeing that the people of Scotland are sovereign"

[laosnative]

On 12/13/2019 at 12:35 PM, Somtamnication said:

I will be the first fat b@st@rd to manually increase, brick by brick,  the height of Hadrian's Wall, its entire length, if need be! God Save the Queen!

Jimmy Krankie ........Hope you get what you wish for.......Did the Scottish people say no to this already?

By a majority vote......Leave it alone.....

FREEDOM...........

[teatree]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Totally wrong. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom

Care to explain rather than just post an assertion and run away?