Buy a Condo advice

[SkyRider]

I've been thinking about buying a house or a condo in Bangkok or Sumat Prakan.  I've given up on a house because a foreigner cannot own land, and I think the 30 year lease is too risky.  

 

I also think buying a condo is risky, buy not as risky as a house.  (I've been paying rent and it has been zero return on investment.)

 

Any advice on buying a condo would be appreciated.  Thank you.  

[beachproperty]

DON'T.....You have zero return renting but if you buy you'll be out the purchase price, have maintenance costs, and maybe a lousy neighbor who your stuck with.

[Peterw42]

How can you be getting a zero return on investment when you haven't made an investment.

 

Whether or not to buy a Condo would very much depend on personal circumstances, not sure that there is any blanket advice that may/may not cover your circumstances.

 

 

 

[ezzra]

If you're planning to buy now is the perfect time as the market is saturated with properties for sale in all areas and all sizes and prices, if you're in Thailand for the long haul than yes buy a condo, not a good idea as investment or renting, i'n stuck for couple of units for sale in Sukhumvit Rd for months now with not even one caller...

[SkyRider]

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

How can you be getting a zero return on investment when you haven't made an investment.

 

Whether or not to buy a Condo would very much depend on personal circumstances, not sure that there is any blanket advice that may/may not cover your circumstances.

 

 

 

What I meant is, I am not getting anything in return for the money I'm paying in rent. 

 

I would just appreciate any advice at all, I want to thoroughly research whether to do this or not, research the risks, and what to look out for if buying.  

[SkyRider]

6 minutes ago, ezzra said:

If you're planning to buy now is the perfect time as the market is saturated with properties for sale in all areas and all sizes and prices, if you're in Thailand for the long haul than yes buy a condo, not a good idea as investment or renting, i'n stuck for couple of units for sale in Sukhumvit Rd for months now with not even one caller...

I plan it to be for the long haul. Although it does concern me that I am not a citizen in this country, and who knows what will happen regarding being able to stay long term.  

[ChipButty]

Make sure you buy one with a Foreign Freehold at the moment it's certainly a buyers market and be careful not to buy where they are all owned by Chinese because all they do is rent them out to STR If you found somewhere you like maybe spend a few days there and see what goes on at night time what the noise level is like.

I tend to think the older condo's are constructed better these new ones the walls are paper thin,

Personally I would look to buy one that maybe needs a bit refurbishment and new furniture then its exactly has you want it.

Also check on the maintenance in the common area's especially the pool is a good sign

[Peterw42]

30 minutes ago, SkyRider said:

What I meant is, I am not getting anything in return for the money I'm paying in rent. 

 

I would just appreciate any advice at all, I want to thoroughly research whether to do this or not, research the risks, and what to look out for if buying.  

There are always two schools of thought, people who never pay rent and people who never buy. 

 

Personally, I have never regretted buying a condo. I am retired and fixed income so I want to fix my outgoings as well, I am not looking for any capital gain etc. $40k sitting in a bank in Australia was giving me 2% interest, not enough to pay the rent here, the same $40k in a condo and I never pay rent ever again, Thats 8k-10k a month I have to spend on other things.(indirectly a 8-10% return that can only go up). It suits my circumstances.

 

I dont think you can make broad generalisations to do with the Thai property market, At some locations and price points there are great priced condos that will hold a resale value, give a good return etc. Other market segments are just ridiculous, over priced, no resale, no return etc. 

 

Unfortunately, there isnt a lot of data available on any Thai real estate, What a property is listed for and what it actually sells for can be wildly different and not public knowledge. I watch condos regularly change hands in my block for around 1.5m baht, Every now and then someone sells one for 1m baht, every now and then someone manages to sell one for 3m baht.

 

I think the old adage of you make money on real estate "when you buy it, not when you sell it" is true in Thailand.

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Peterw42

[beachproperty]

You have to consider if you buy in Bangkok and pay say 5 million baht ....how much could you earn investing it ? 5%? if so that's 250,000 baht or about 21,000 baht a month you could use to rent a place.

[Henryford]

The buy/rent decision is the same here as almost anywhere in the world. If you intend to stay here a long time 10+ years then buy, if for a short term or if you are not sure about Thailand then rent. Buying my condo 13 years ago was the best thing i ever did. I have broken even now, live in effect rent free and own a nice place. It helped of course that the Pound was 71 then. With exchange rates now not so easy.

[Dan O]

Be very careful and do your research. I did a consulting study on condo's in BKK and found that out of the 12 condo projects I studied the management of the common property areas are not funded in any way for Capital Expenses or Capital Reserves to cover wear and tear or aging replacments. The typical condo fees that they indicate for common area support and maintenence are generally funding amenties within the facility like gyms, salons, shops or other fee for use areas which generate income for the owners or management but pay no fees toward the overall Capital Reserves for the common areas. Those future maintenance and upkeep fees can be back charged to condo owners in future years as an adjustment without your consent unless properly documented in the condo documents and regulations. 

[mokwit]

19 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Those future maintenance and upkeep fees can be back charged to condo owners in future years as an adjustment without your consent unless properly documented in the condo documents and regulations.

Here let me fix that:  'In some cases maintenance and upkeep fees have been back charged to condo owners.............' 

 

Thanks for highlighting an often overlooked issue. People in my condo got hit with this - chartged for replacement capex of building infrastructure.

 

There were some very useful tips given in a thread on this subject by someone - one of the points he made was to buy in a condo with many units* so that things like lift replacement would be spread more thinly - many other points like that- obviously knew his stuff - sorry I can't remember which thread so as to post a link.

 

*also OCCUPIED units.

Edited December 22, 2019 by mokwit

[mokwit]

Oh yeah North facing with condos on either side i.e. no outside wall getting the sun.

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Be very careful and do your research. I did a consulting study on condo's in BKK and found that out of the 12 condo projects I studied the management of the common property areas are not funded in any way for Capital Expenses or Capital Reserves to cover wear and tear or aging replacments. The typical condo fees that they indicate for common area support and maintenence are generally funding amenties within the facility like gyms, salons, shops or other fee for use areas which generate income for the owners or management but pay no fees toward the overall Capital Reserves for the common areas. Those future maintenance and upkeep fees can be back charged to condo owners in future years as an adjustment without your consent unless properly documented in the condo documents and regulations. 

Isn't there an initial sinking fund that will cover future capital expenses, at least for a few years. My 8 year old block was recently repainted and the money came from the sinking fund. The sinking fund isnt empty yet, so there are still some capital reserves in place. 

Can Condo fees or extra levies be raised without the owners consent/vote?

[ChipButty]

14 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Those future maintenance and upkeep fees can be back charged to condo owners in future years as an adjustment without your consent unless properly documented in the condo documents and regulations. 

Not a lot of people know about that 

[ChipButty]

Thai's dont like paying the management fee's so poor maintenance I remember years ago looking around a few moo baan's and you can see they are not being maintained the pool areas looking old and dirty so I gave up on that idea

[mokwit]

2 minutes ago, ChipButty said:

Thai's dont like paying the management fee's so poor maintenance I remember years ago looking around a few moo baan's and you can see they are not being maintained the pool areas looking old and dirty so I gave up on that idea

This situation in condos will get worse if visa restrictions continue to restrict the numbers of tenants who can sign for a 6 month or one year lease.

 

as I posted elsewehere 'Ultimately if tenants who can sign a 6 month or 1 year contract become thinner on the ground as they are, buildings that previously voted to ban AirBnB will vote to allow it unless owner occupiers are the majority. Otherwise, no tenants will mean no communal fees paid. Buildings that were liveable will become unliveable and buyers of condos will become fewer as you will be buying an apartment in a cross between a refugee camp and a youth hostel and will on;y be able to visit depending on how much time you can get a visa for.'

[ChipButty]

6 minutes ago, mokwit said:

This situation in condos will get worse if visa restrictions continue to restrict the numbers of tenants who can sign for a 6 month or one year lease.

 

as I posted elsewehere 'Ultimately if tenants who can sign a 6 month or 1 year contract become thinner on the ground as they are, buildings that previously voted to ban AirBnB will vote to allow it unless owner occupiers are the majority. Otherwise, no tenants will mean no communal fees paid. Buildings that were liveable will become unliveable and buyers of condos will become fewer as you will be buying an apartment in a cross between a refugee camp and a youth hostel and will on;y be able to visit depending on how much time you can get a visa for.'

I always thought that problem would come, Airbnb love them or hate them as long as them units have a good occupancy rate the fee's will get paid take that away the whole project will collapse 

I dont know about BKK as I dont live there no more but down here in Phuket the long term renters seem to have dried up lots of empty villas 

Edited December 22, 2019 by ChipButty

[mokwit]

1 minute ago, ChipButty said:

I always thought that problem would come, Airbnb love them or hate them as long as them units have a good occupancy rate the fee's will get paid take that away the whole project will collapse 

Exactly. Those who bought  for rental income will dig their heels in and say "no AirBnB, no fees - we bought to rent out". What is the juristic person going to do, ban an owner who lives elsewhere and non existent tenants from using the communal facilities? If that doesn't work they can do what?

[Peterw42]

5 minutes ago, mokwit said:

This situation in condos will get worse if visa restrictions continue to restrict the numbers of tenants who can sign for a 6 month or one year lease.

 

as I posted elsewehere 'Ultimately if tenants who can sign a 6 month or 1 year contract become thinner on the ground as they are, buildings that previously voted to ban AirBnB will vote to allow it unless owner occupiers are the majority. Otherwise, no tenants will mean no communal fees paid. Buildings that were liveable will become unliveable and buyers of condos will become fewer as you will be buying an apartment in a cross between a refugee camp and a youth hostel and will on;y be able to visit depending on how much time you can get a visa for.'

Not all blocks, or their owners are dependant on rentals, well run blocks that have banned Airbnb etc are often owner occupied. People own condos for a variety of circumstances, live in, holiday house, an investment that they leave empty etc.

 

I think you will find the majority of blocks are not dependant on being rental businesses.

[mokwit]

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Not all blocks, or their owners are dependant on rentals, well run blocks that have banned Airbnb etc are often owner occupied. People own condos for a variety of circumstances, live in, holiday house, an investment that they leave empty etc.

 

I think you will find the majority of blocks are not dependant on being rental businesses.

You are maybe not wrong, but many Thais buy condos to rent out, and in some buildings they may be enough of a voting force.

Edited December 22, 2019 by mokwit

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

If you're planning to buy now is the perfect time as the market is saturated with properties for sale in all areas and all sizes and prices, if you're in Thailand for the long haul than yes buy a condo, not a good idea as investment or renting, i'n stuck for couple of units for sale in Sukhumvit Rd for months now with not even one caller...

Perfect time to buy?and you,ve got 2 gaffs  up for sale for months and not one caller?????????? Sounds it.

Edited December 22, 2019 by kingdong

[ChipButty]

Half the staff at Sansiri buy up the units to rent out and get the option to buy before it's come out of the ground most of Sansiri's customers are Thai and maybe buy 3 or 4 units at a time what do you think they are doing with them?

[spiekerjozef]

Renting is money down the drain...

[mokwit]

Just now, spiekerjozef said:

Renting is money down the drain...

Unless you have no visa security. Every visa I used to stay here 11 years between working and becoming eligible for a retirement visa has been closed off.

[mngmn]

4 hours ago, spiekerjozef said:

Renting is money down the drain...

Not if you can invest the purchase price for a greater return than the rent. My Australian super fund returned 13% last year. In other words 21,000 baht a month on 2 million baht. Can easily rent a 2 million baht condo for less than 21,000/month. Note that a benchmark rate of 4-5% is more realistic though.

 

Buying a property you will never be able to sell in your lifetime is also money down the drain. If the money is invested you can access some of it if needed for say medical bills. If you tie your money up in property you can't sell part of it, only sell the whole thing.

 

On the other hand, owning a property provides certainty and security in the event of rents increasing faster than the cost of living. You don't have to put up with the landlord's rubbish furniture and colour scheme. You don't have to fight the landlord to get your deposit back if you move. And of course moving is always an option if the building deteriorates or you have neighbours from hell.

[xylophone]

8 hours ago, SkyRider said:

What I meant is, I am not getting anything in return for the money I'm paying in rent. 

 

I would just appreciate any advice at all, I want to thoroughly research whether to do this or not, research the risks, and what to look out for if buying.  

Well I've bought and sold two properties here, sold a condo for a friend, and I'm now renting.

 

Add to that the fact that two other friends have had major problems with buildings going up next to (and I mean within centimetres) of their property and it has cost them a great deal of money and many years to fight the developers to try and get some compensation – – as of now one has, and one hasn't.

 

Like other posters have said I was getting a fairly good rate of return in my home country for any funds invested, so easy to do the sums with regards to buying versus renting.

 

Other considerations I had when I eventually sold up and moved into a rental apartment, were the fact that I am only a guest here, and if they decide to change their minds, then I will be out of the door with no compensation paid for any property I own.

 

Following on from that, as can be seen around the country, there are many properties for sale, ranging from very small condos up to large villas, and the market is stagnant and has been for some time, so trying to sell a property if one wants to move/leave the country is tantamount to winning the lottery.

 

And trying to get something done about an unruly neighbour here is very difficult indeed, and furthermore if they are Thai, then that makes the job even harder.

 

Had I known what I know now, when I bought my first property, then I certainly would not have purchased.

 

Now I am free to go wherever I want, whenever I want, with the minimum of fuss and no worries – – and that is of paramount importance to me at my time of life.

[scubascuba3]

9 hours ago, SkyRider said:

I plan it to be for the long haul. Although it does concern me that I am not a citizen in this country, and who knows what will happen regarding being able to stay long term.  

Also you may not like the place after a period of time. Rent for a few years to get a better feel for locations and any changes in visas, insurance etc.

 

Also depends on age, if 70 I wouldn't bother buying

Edited December 22, 2019 by scubascuba3

[SkyRider]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Also you may not like the place after a period of time. Rent for a few years to get a better feel for locations and any changes in visas, insurance etc.

 

Also depends on age, if 70 I wouldn't bother buying

I have to think long and hard about this, it's a huge decision, full of risks, and not being a citizen of this country certainly concerns me. 

 

I was thinking about finding a building I like that has condos for both rent and sale.  Rent in that building for a year (or more), see what I think of it, and if I like it, maybe buy a unit in that building.  

 

My budget is no more then 1.5 million baht.  (I've been here for 7 years, and have spent about 500,000 in rent. That's one third of 1.5 million that could have been invested in a condo).

 

I saw a condo today that seemed clean and cute, with a nice small swimming pool, asking 800,000. 

But then I found out that some of the units have termites.  

My girlfriend was told that the management is only spraying in the rooms where the people let them in. That seems like a huge problem to me.  

[SkyRider]

4 hours ago, xylophone said:

Well I've bought and sold two properties here, sold a condo for a friend, and I'm now renting.

 

Add to that the fact that two other friends have had major problems with buildings going up next to (and I mean within centimetres) of their property and it has cost them a great deal of money and many years to fight the developers to try and get some compensation – – as of now one has, and one hasn't.

 

Like other posters have said I was getting a fairly good rate of return in my home country for any funds invested, so easy to do the sums with regards to buying versus renting.

 

Other considerations I had when I eventually sold up and moved into a rental apartment, were the fact that I am only a guest here, and if they decide to change their minds, then I will be out of the door with no compensation paid for any property I own.

 

Following on from that, as can be seen around the country, there are many properties for sale, ranging from very small condos up to large villas, and the market is stagnant and has been for some time, so trying to sell a property if one wants to move/leave the country is tantamount to winning the lottery.

 

And trying to get something done about an unruly neighbour here is very difficult indeed, and furthermore if they are Thai, then that makes the job even harder.

 

Had I known what I know now, when I bought my first property, then I certainly would not have purchased.

 

Now I am free to go wherever I want, whenever I want, with the minimum of fuss and no worries – – and that is of paramount importance to me at my time of life.

Yes, as I posted before, not being a citizen of this country concerns me.  So does unruly neighbors, and if I want to leave, I might not be able to sell it.

 

You're renting an apartment Xylophone, not a condo? Isn't the electricity much more expensive in an apartment?