Can people steal my chanot land?

[agrow]

the wife lost a fair amount of her farm land when the area was upgraded to cha note. we had built a small house for the daughter on it, about 2 .5 mt off the side boundary, when the surveyors came wife was in oz with me ,so they went on what the neighbor said was the boundary, now the house is 1mt off the boundary. when we saw what had happened we went to lands office but too late the round pegs were all ready in,  . easy to pick side boundary as father a long time ago had planted a tree at each end  ,now the trees belong to neighbor. so yes they can cheat u.

 

[justin case]

SQUATTER rights...what do they say... if someone proves they live there on your wife's land, they can CLAIM IT

[bubba45]

 My wife and I were out of the country for an extended period (work) and the F’ing zip line people took some of our chanote land. Probably not even half a raí, but they sliced off an irregular end for themselves. It’s what happens when you are not there. Then try getting it back!  We already had a house on the land, too, so it was developed. 
On the other side someone built ON our property line. Actually slightly over it. When we came back and wife complained that they had violated building codes, land office told her “well no one complained”. We’ve been fighting in court for several years now to try to remedy it. We won over a year ago, but the structure is still there. 
Morale:  if you’re not there, vigilant, and on guard 24/7, and Thai, you are wide open. It’s the Wild West, chanotes or not. And needless to say, if you think the authorities would bother to inform a non-Thai of such an issue, you’ve not been in Thailand long enough. 
Good luck. 

[Grandpa Cool]

I understand that Chanote is actually a satellite survey and it's impossible to fudge.

Correct me if I'm wrong 

[KhaoYai]

Just a quick answer as I'm short on time - my apologies if someone has already pointed any of this out, I don't have time to read every post.

 

I am surprised that the land office require you to point out where your markers are. One of the differences between Chanotte and Nor Sor 3 land is that Chanotte has been properly measured and surveyed - by the land office. To the best of my knowledge Chanotte markers are fixed by GPS so even if the are dug up and moved (illegal), it should be a simple task to find their true positions.  Are you sure something is not being lost in the translation? Could it be that they are requesting your permission to go on the land to check?

 

Secondly, from what others have posted, it would appear that Thailand has a law of adverse possesion - where land can be claimed by someone who has been using it for a period of time.  These laws exist in many countries and the ones I know of are not quite as simple as has been described. You need to get a lawyer to explain how Thai law works on this. There are usually conditions attached that state the steps and measures that have to exist before a claim of adverse possesion where can be made. It is not as simpe as just using the land.

 

In UK law for example, the period is 7 years before a squatter (for want of a better word) can lay claim to land. If the owner can prove they have contacted the 'squatter' and requested them to cease any activity they are conducting on the land and tells them to vacate it, that would usually be enough to negate any adverse possesion claim.

 

Every adverse possesion law that I know of contains some form of clause stating the amount of time a claimant must have occupied/used the land for before they can make a claim and this period must be uninterputed. A notice to quite (as described above) would be classed as an interuption so therefore reset that time period. You need to establish what the Thai law says on these points.

 

From what others have written, the time period that must pass before a claim for adverse possesion can be made appears to be 10 years in Thailand. You state that the land was transfered to your wife in 2013. Again, in other countries, the transfer of the land would constitute a 'use' therefore if a 'use' occured in 2013, nobody would be able to claim their use has been uninterupted until at least 2023. I would be very surprised if the Thai law does not contain similar clauses.

 

However, you are talking about land in Thailand and all sorts of 'strange' things can happen via corrupt officials/lawyers. You really need to employ the services of a good lawyer in the area and get them to deal with this. I have no contacts on Samui but I know someone in the property business on Phuket (not a million miles away) who may be able to recommend a lawyer/give you some help. PM me if you want their details.

 

Once you get this sorted out - remember the 10 year period and do whatever is required under Thai law to maintain your possesion - i.e. perform a 'use' of the land and/or notify anyone using the land illegally to quit. A huge rent bill is often enough to get rid of squatters and, depending on the law in the country in question, a tenant can be deemed to have entered into a rental contract simple by virtue of the fact they are using the land.

[metempsychotic]

16 hours ago, swissie said:

Post 12 & 13 are still valid. Period.
Only thing disturbing is the fact that none of your neighbors qualify for Chanote-Papers. How did you manage to upgrade your property to "Chanote" and your neighbors were (appearantly) not able do do the same?       Quote: "All the surrounding land is NS3 so no chanot markers". ???

There might be the "root of the problem".

It costs money to upgrade, the neighbors have not yet seen fit to do so.

[Boycie]

Does your official land ownership paper have a red or green Thai garuda symbol at the top?

 

Many people confuse their land ownership papers by calling them 'Chanotes', but really they are holding a lower land titled paper. (Nor Sor 3 Gor/NS3G, Nor Sor 3 Kor/NS3K) Green coloured garudas.

 

Chanote is the common name given to land ownership papers of Nor Sor 4 with a Red coloured garuda.

 

Your situation sounds similiar to what happened to myself a few years ago. We wanted to upgrade our land from NS3 to NS3G and the land office sent out letters to the owners of ajoining land, which was already NS3G. They have 30 days to contest. I believe with Chanote land, this doesn't happen.

[Stevemercer]

We got our Chanote land surveyed by the Land Office a year ago before we purchased the land (5 rai). We particularly wanted to do this before going to the expense of building a boundary fence.

 

The 'new survey' resulted in some of the concrete markers being moved slightly. I think we lost 1 metre along one boundary, but gained 1.5 metres along another boundary. The neighbours were present to sign off on the finished survey.

 

One neighbour disputed whether a tree right on the boundary was on his land or our land. Apparently it had some value for timeber. We needed to cut it down to allow sufficient access. He wanted 70,000 Baht before he would accept it was on our land. The former land owner (who lived next door) sided with us and the neighbour caved. We'd been careful to keep sweet with the old guy by throwing a bit of work his way!

 

After we treated the surveying team to lunch they redid one of the boundaries adjoining an easement and public land, and gave us an extra metre along that 50 metre boundary.

 

In conclusion, I don't think you will loose any land, but you could loose a few nice shade trees and have a boundary or two shaved if you do not have a representative present.

 

But I would not loose any sleep if you were not able to organise a representative.

 

[GreasyFingers]

21 hours ago, Nepal4me said:

The second letter is just a document that allows us to send a representative.

Op, your land is defined by coordinates that are available from the Land Office (though maybe not readily if an old Samui family are your neighbours). There are private surveyors on Samui but I am not sure if they are allowed to legally locate boundaries. They would be my first contact as lawyers know nothing about boundaries, only the law. The surveyors could locate your corners by GPS but there may still be some negotiation with the neighbours as that is the Thai way. It depends if the neighbours were consulted when your land was originally surveyed in the conversion to chanote.

[Kwasaki]

22 hours ago, Nepal4me said:

The letter states that if we do not dispute or agree or disagree, the land office will automatically agree with my neighbour's measurement....whether it agrees with our Chanot paper or not.

You in Canada they know that, time to rip your Mrs off unless you can be bothered.

[khunPer]

21 hours ago, Nepal4me said:

I wonder if anybody has any words of wisdom that might be able to help our situation?

I have land on Samui, also originally bought as NS3 in 2004 and upgraded to Chanote little more than 10-years ago.

 

It's a normal procedure that all neighbors are going to be present when the land office comes and measure a land plot, and place markers; I've been through the process.

 

Chanote land is more precise measured – with satelite – than the NS3 markers, and there can also be other reasons for change of land marker position. For example can NS3 beachfront land on Samui be larger than later allowed, wherefore chanote title markers are moved more inland, i.e. away from the beach.

 

When the land is measured the land owner – or the land owner's representative – and all neighbors agree about the position of the post(s).

 

In old time Samui were the land markers coconut palms – even a row of palms – which often were plantet/set on agreed positions. Later when deeds and more exact measure for official markers were made, the neighbors needed to agree. My one Thai neighbor told me that he had planted a specific coconut as land marker, and that palm is indeed exactly in the middle of the chanote line, but at NS3 position on the beach, so we in a way each own "half a coconut palm", but in theory the palm belongs to the Marine Department that owns the beach. On the opposite side is also a palm as NS3 marker, but that is just inside my land according to the chanote line, so that palm tree is mine, i.e. I alone can decide to harvest the coconuts...????

 

In my case it was no big deal, as the original NS3 posts were visible. My girlfriend, that represented med at that time, had to drive to a building construction market, the local Home Mart, to buy cement for the land office representatives to place the new chanote markers in. After finishing the measure they wished to be invited for lunch, all together, but a very modest Thai-style lunch.

 

I had photos of the original markers and their position. It's a good idea to take photos in case of any dispute later.

 

The chanote markers should be measured very precise, but I don't know the allowed tolerance in the satelite measure, presume it's kind of GPS.

 

If you are not present, and one or more neighbors claim their land marked in a (slightly) different position, you cannot argue against it, and the land marker might be placed there. I presume – presume because of the satelite measure – that it might be few centimeters, but that can also be enough for problems; 10-20 centimeter can be enough for a wall is inside or outside one's land.

 

A farang land-owner close to my land had build a wall and entrance rod without proper measure of his land markers, and when his new neighbor wished their land upgraded from NS3 to chanote, his wall and entrance road was at one end about half a meter inside the neighbor's land, and he had to move both entrance and wall, as he did not want to buy extra land for a price relative to the high price the new owner had paid.

 

You should find someone to represent the owner at day of measure, and make sure they have a copy of your title deed, which should show clear indication of distance between all markers.

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, Boycie said:

Your situation sounds similiar to what happened to myself a few years ago. We wanted to upgrade our land from NS3 to NS3G and the land office sent out letters to the owners of ajoining land, which was already NS3G. They have 30 days to contest. I believe with Chanote land, this doesn't happen.

I presume it's the same all overThailand, that when you upgrade from NS3 or NS3G to chanote title deed, there is a 30-day period where others can claim right for the NS3 deed. That was the case when I got land upgraded at Samui, has to wait 30 days.

[khunPer]

5 hours ago, justin case said:

SQUATTER rights...what do they say... if someone proves they live there on your wife's land, they can CLAIM IT

For chanote titled land it's 10 years.

[khunPer]

20 hours ago, swissie said:

The squatters can squat for the next 200 years, it will not nullify your proper Chanote Papers.
If squatters could "neutralise" even Chanote Papers, every piece of land that exists in Thailand would be up for Legal-Questioning!
Even with no Land-Markers physically present, surveyors can establish your Land-Boundaries by using the Land-Markers of your neighbors.

No, 10 years is enough to claim a chanote title land...

Quote

If a squatter is in possession of land for an uninterrupted period of 10 years in case of a Chanote (section 1382) ('and have peacefully and openly possessed the property belonging to another, with the intention to be its owner he acquires ownership of it'), they can apply to the Land Office for a deed of ownership. So, if you hold land under Chanote but a squatter takes possession and you do nothing to remove that squatter from the land for 10 years, then you could lose that land to the squatter. As this is only one year in case of possession (section 1374 Civil and Commercial Code) it is not uncommon for someone else to claim possession over (part of) such land.

Source: Samui for Sale, "Thailand Land Title Deeds"

[GreasyFingers]

10 hours ago, khunPer said:

I presume – presume because of the satelite measure – that it might be few centimeters, but that can also be enough for problems; 10-20 centimeter can be enough for a wall is inside or outside one's land.

There are that many satellites available now to the GPS/GNNS systems that they should be able to measure to the centimetre, or 2 at the worst.

[IvorBiggun2]

Quote

Allocation of land and private land surveys.

Quote

 

What does cadastral mean? It just means a map containing a metes-and-bounds description of all parcels of land owned by everybody throughout a country. In Thailand it contains ownership, tenure and the precise location of all owned property. Some, but not all parcels in Thailand are also defined by GPS coordinates.

To do a survey, land office officials have the right to enter anyone's land during the daytime, as long as the owner has been properly notified. Under Section 66 of the Land Code, these officials can make minor changes in the land, such as dig holes or cut down branches to enable them to do the survey, as long as doing so causes as little damage to the property as possible.

So what if a survey team comes to your house to do a survey? And what if part of your house is blocking their view, so they knock that part down?

Of course, they shouldn't have done this, because they had alternatives. They might, for example, have brought a tall ladder to see over your roof. If they knocked down your house to do this you would have a claim against them, as discussed in a later column.

Surveyors put down reference marks or monuments, for example small bricks or stakes with metal tops, to show where boundaries are. Nobody but these officials can remove them, even the owners of the land on which they've been placed. Let's say, for example, that you're putting a wall around a house that you're renting. Right where you want to put the wall is a little brick monument put in place by land office surveyors a couple of years ago.

You can't do anything to the monument without the permission of the land office. If the land office says no, you can appeal this decision administratively to the interior minister if you do so within 15 days of of the land office's rejection of your request. The minister has 60 days to accept or reject your request, and if he or she doesn't respond within this period, your request is considered granted. The minister's decision is final.

 

 

[Postmaster]

If you are not using it and do not need it ask the neighbour to make you an offer to buy it from you.

[RocketDog]

On 12/23/2019 at 12:37 AM, jackdd said:

Afaik if somebody has used / inhabited land (without a rental contract or similar) in Thailand for at least 10 years he automatically aquires the right to continue doing this. He doesn't become the owner, but the owner has no legal means to remove this person from this land.

Same system in USA. Not just squatting on land but also other actions such as cutting firewood, diverting water features, gardening, etc. 

[Janner1]

On 12/22/2019 at 11:18 PM, sirineou said:

I don't even know why they would need you.your property markers were already surveyed and filed at the land office.

Incompetence springs to mind as a reason!

The poster should do what an earlier reply said “ have a holiday go back and sort it “ because after they have screwed its up there is no chance to sort it in the future. They will simply say You were not here so it is your fault.

Good luck

[GreasyFingers]

8 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

 

I do not know what you are quoting from but whoever wrote that knows very little about how surveyors work and boundary definition.

[IvorBiggun2]

31 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

I do not know what you are quoting from but whoever wrote that knows very little about how surveyors work and boundary definition.

Bangkok Post.   Oct 14 2012

 

Quote

James Finch of Chavalit Finch and Partners ([email protected])
and Nilobon Tangprasit of Siam City Law Offices Ltd ([email protected]).
Researchers: Arnon Rungthanakarn and Sitra Horsinchai.

So the above know 'very little'?

[GreasyFingers]

9 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Bangkok Post.   Oct 14 2012

 

So the above know 'very little'?

As I said in a previous post lawyers no nothing about boundaries, that is what surveyors are for. Actually I had assumed your quote was written by a lawyer as it was banal.

[LivinLOS]

On 12/22/2019 at 4:51 PM, swissie said:

"I don't even know why they would need you.your property markers were already surveyed and filed at the land office."

 

If that's not enough, then I don't know what is!

Because if they cant find the markers (very common, even without neighbours purposefully removing them) its common to shave off a few meters for a small payment to the surveyor who comes. 

I saw them take a 6m chunk one entire property line off a Phuket seaview plot. 

[LivinLOS]

On 12/23/2019 at 12:01 AM, baansgr said:

If your land was upgraded to Cha note and as you said has markers, land office will have a record of this, also co ordinates are on your Cha note so don't understand why there would be any discrepency  on adjoining land plots to yours. Didn't make sense

Because the surveyors use GPS which is +- 6 - 8m accurate.. They surveyors are both lazy and may also take payment. 

If the chanote markers can not be found (ones around my land had degraded to stumps, but we found the important corner markers) then they will 'by eye' mark out new ones.. Anyone who has been in Thailand for longer than a few weeks will understand the potential for abuse and likelyhood of it happening. 

This is why putting in walls, posts, clear delineation between plots is a required investment for the absentee landlord. 

[LivinLOS]

On 12/23/2019 at 9:42 AM, Grandpa Cool said:

I understand that Chanote is actually a satellite survey and it's impossible to fudge.

Correct me if I'm wrong 

how accurate do you think the basic 50 usd GPS's the land office surveyors carry is ?? +-8m so 16m in either direction is still 'accurate' ?? 

[GreasyFingers]

On 12/26/2019 at 10:02 AM, LivinLOS said:

Because the surveyors use GPS which is +- 6 - 8m accurate.. They surveyors are both lazy and may also take payment. 

And they still quote them to 3 decimal places in their Land Office records. A surveyor would not use a hand held GPS to mark or locate a boundary for chanote purposes. I could pace out the boundaries to better than 8 metres so you need to rethink you observations. If they have the right equipment they can get down to 1 cm accuracy.

[IvorBiggun2]

Had my Chanote titled land surveyed in 2005. They just turned up and started searching for the markers. I asked why they didn't use GPS and I was told they didn't have one. All the markers were found to be correct according to the land title map and none of the neighbours, who were watching,

complained so everyone was happy.????

[Dumbastheycome]

A property in my wife's name was upgraded to Chanote and I am sure when the numbered markers  were set they were also given GPS  co ordinates.  Maybe that is more recent thing?

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, GreasyFingers said:

And they still quote them to 3 decimal places in their Land Office records. A surveyor would not use a hand held GPS to mark or locate a boundary for chanote purposes. I could pace out the boundaries to better than 8 metres so you need to rethink you observations. If they have the right equipment they can get down to 1 cm accuracy.

I watched it done 3 or 4 times with an absolute junk piece of cheap handheld GPS (my garmin model was 5x the price and quality of what he had in his hand) and while his was skipping around 5m this way or that unable to get a strong fix he even asked me what mine said !!! Also as this was on Phuket and his had no altimeter (mine had a barometric pressure one which had been set calibrated to sea level.. not really accurate but better than nothing) and he wanted to know what the height reading was as it all lead to building permit legality. That was the state of chanote surveying in the 2000 - 2010 years on Phuket, and a chanote once issued is still a chanote. 

 

The one where they stole a 6m wide strip was a huge deal, the surveyor knew he was doing it, and strangely wasnt getting huge money for it (maybe 10k or so) it was done on the south kamala hillside and I have no idea if the other ower protested or what came of the end result legally, only know he modified the plot boundry by a huge margin. 

 

Yes there are all kinds of higher end surveying tools out there, or even mil spec GPS codes, but the land officers doing those surveys had worse equipment than you now get in a 100 buck smartphone. 
 

[Tounge Thaied]

Lots of advice, lots of discussion... please do update us on how this situation finally plays out please.