Bad day at CM Imm: Retirement extension

[LawrenceN]

Some of you may recall that I reported last year about how well my retirement extension went last year, based on income, no consul letter. I'm in my 9th year. This year, it didn't go so well.

 

Before I get into the details, I want you to know I need advice on what to do if my next try fails, so please consider that as you read. The amount of money is not a problem, and I'm not trying to skirt the rules on the cheap.

 

The trouble started last year with Bangkok Bank's announcement that they could no longer accept a non-standard ACH (Automated Clearing House) transfer. I have two sources of retirement income, one public, one private. The public one was already using the compatible format. Bangkok Bank told me the private pension company didn't meet the standard. BB was warning that transfers would fail starting April 1, 2019. So I dutifully worked out a new way to transfer with them.

 

Since the April deposit, my deposits from the private pension show a BAHTNET code. The public deposits show FTT, as they always have done. I wasn't too concerned, because I was getting a statement every month showing that the private pension money was deposited to Bangkok Bank. It came in every month as before. Any reasonable person can see that the money was deposited from the same source to the same account in the same amount as it had been. Unfortunately, reasonable people aren't employed at CM Immigration.

 

Oh, by the way, the mixed Income/deposit method no longer appears to be an option at CM. I have 500,000+ on deposit, but Imm wasn't interested in adding the monthly verifiable FTT deposit.

 

Imm sent me back to BB. BB acknowledge the deposits came from abroad, and gave me a supplementary report showing the transfer came from my source through Standard Charter Bank into my BB account. They gave me one of those for every month since April. The kind assistant manager at BB gave me her business card and said Imm could call her to explain. I don't have much hope that that will do any good, because Imm is so inflexible about their precious regulations, even when they're making them up on the fly.

 

My current extension expires Jan 30. Where does this leave me? What are my options? I have a life here, nowhere to return to in the US. I should mention that my public pension alone is more than 40k baht per month, so enough to meet the income requirement for a marriage extension. Are there any other good options? I'm not eager to get into the barely legal tourist visa carousel.

 

Serious, knowledgeable comments welcome.

[DrJack54]

OP, sounds like your being hard done by.

Your last resort option if your statements from BB fail would be to exit Thailand re-enter visa exempt and start over. Could you obtain more money from o/s to build up the 500k and use money in bank method with conversion of ve to non o at imm.

Would you consider an agent as alternative. Poor suggestions but last resort stuff.

[Moonlover]

I don't understand what the issue is. BATHNET transactions are clearly foreign deposits and you should be able to get an FET (foreign Exchange Transaction) form from your bank. I used then to prove that some of my pension deposits were authentic.

[LawrenceN]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

OP, sounds like your being hard done by.

Your last resort option if your statements from BB fail would be to exit Thailand re-enter visa exempt and start over. Could you obtain more money from o/s to build up the 500k and use money in bank method with conversion of ve to non o at imm.

Would you consider an agent as alternative. Poor suggestions but last resort stuff.

Thanks, worth considering. 

 

I had always thought the income method was sufficient. I will probably now bring my deposit account up to 800k and be done with it. I was resisting letting someone else decide what to do with my funds. We have money sitting around unused in the States, just never thought that parking it here doing nothing was beneficial, given that the income method worked OK in the past. But it's too late for this year.

[LawrenceN]

3 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I don't understand what the issue is. BATHNET transactions are clearly foreign deposits and you should be able to get an FET (foreign Exchange Transaction) form from your bank. I used then to prove that some of my pension deposits were authentic.

I'll ask about the FET form. Good idea. Thanks!

 

I don't understand either. Imm evidently thinks it makes a difference. That's the only stumbling block. I vaguely recall someone mentioning last year that certain domestic transfers are marked as BAHTNET.

Edited January 8, 2020 by LawrenceN

[bkk6060]

I never understand why people have pensions, etc. transferred directly into Thai accounts.

From my experience, a total resolution to the transfer issue is to have them sent into your home country bank.

Then, wire transfer to BKB they will post as " international transfer".

Yes, it cost me $25 so what no issues or hassles so far.

[saengd]

You have enough funds on deposit and incoming every month to qualify for a marriage visa, I recently converted my O-A visa reason for stay in Chiang Mai from retirement to marriage, I suggest you do the same. The agent who did this for me was Assist Thaivisa, the cost was 8,900 Baht.

[LivinLOS]

40 minutes ago, LawrenceN said:

Any reasonable person can see that the money was deposited from the same source to the same account in the same amount as it had been.

The system isnt about being reasonable.. It is about complying with the demands.. 

If you get through this year, why not consolidate your pensions into a transferwise borderless bank account, then send that in monthly marked the correct way for Thai visa purposes, and be sure. 

[LawrenceN]

4 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I never understand why people have pensions, etc. transferred directly into Thai accounts.

From my experience, a total resolution to the transfer issue is to have them sent into your home country bank.

Then, wire transfer to BKB they will post as " international transfer".

Yes, it cost me $25 so what no issues or hassles so far.

I gave you a 'like' for this, but I don't really understand. My pension fund is doing a wire transfer, at no cost to me. I think I understand from my multiple trips to the bank today is that my pension company uses Standard Charter as an intermediary, so it looks like BAHTNET.

[LivinLOS]

7 minutes ago, LawrenceN said:

I gave you a 'like' for this, but I don't really understand. My pension fund is doing a wire transfer, at no cost to me. I think I understand from my multiple trips to the bank today is that my pension company uses Standard Charter as an intermediary, so it looks like BAHTNET.

What he is saying is.. Given you need to control the houw and the when of pension payments.. Instead of dealing with Thai banking and all the communication and issues.. 

Pay the pension into an account in your home country (My suggestion was transferwise as it is easy to set up and global.. but any home bank will do) aggregate all your incoming amounts there.. then YOU control the timing and system of payments. 

[Moonlover]

5 minutes ago, LawrenceN said:

I gave you a 'like' for this, but I don't really understand. My pension fund is doing a wire transfer, at no cost to me. I think I understand from my multiple trips to the bank today is that my pension company uses Standard Charter as an intermediary, so it looks like BAHTNET.

I had a similar issue with my pension payments. They came in via CitiBank and showed up as BATHNET. However the aforementioned FET made it quite clear to even the densest IO that it was a foreign transaction. It even gave the name and address of the source. I think this will resolve your problem.

[LawrenceN]

Just now, LivinLOS said:

What he is saying is.. Given you need to control the houw and the when of pension payments.. Instead of dealing with Thai banking and all the communication and issues.. 

Pay the pension into an account in your home country (My suggestion was transferwise as it is easy to set up and global.. but any home bank will do) aggregate all your incoming amounts there.. then YOU control the timing and system of payments. 

What I still don't understand is, how will I know in advance that the transfer will show the FTT code that Imm demands? I could jump through a lot of hoops and still be on square 1. It's still gotta be transferred into BkkBk somehow. How do I control which method the sending institution uses? As I mentioned above, the pension fund wire transfers the money, but they do it without meeting the ACH standard that BB requires.

[LivinLOS]

2 minutes ago, LawrenceN said:

What I still don't understand is, how will I know in advance that the transfer will show the FTT code that Imm demands? I could jump through a lot of hoops and still be on square 1. It's still gotta be transferred into BkkBk somehow. How do I control which method the sending institution uses? As I mentioned above, the pension fund wire transfers the money, but they do it without meeting the ACH standard that BB requires.

Direct bank to bank international overseas transfers have that code.. Your pension service presumably uses a partner bank or clearing bank (more common with americans than europeans I think). 

Or as I suggested, using transferwise which has a specific option to send it that way, and has that code. 

[LawrenceN]

7 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I had a similar issue with my pension payments. They came in via CitiBank and showed up as BATHNET. However the aforementioned FET made it quite clear to even the densest IO that it was a foreign transaction. It even gave the name and address of the source. I think this will resolve your problem.

What Immigration office do you use? My impression is that Chiang Mai is rigid and makes up rules as they go. It didn't seem to matter today that I could demonstrate the source of the funds. They just wanted to see the magic FTT code in the statements. Can anyone confirm that they used Moonlover's method, the FET, and got the desired results at Chiang Mai?

[Peter Denis]

Hi Lawrence,

It's appalling that your IO doesn't accept the foreign origin of the funds on your bank-account, even though - as you rightly mention - every reasonable person can see that the money was deposited from the same source to the same account in the same amount as it had been. Unfortunately, reasonable people aren't employed at CM Immigration.

You have time till end of January before your permission to stay expires.

So I would suggest you go back with the additional documentation your BKK Bank source provided you with.

Chances are you have a different immigration officer handling your case, and that might make all the difference in the world.

If that still doesn't work, you could do the following:

1. Exit Thailand and re-enter VisaExempt which will give a 30 days permission to stay.  That VisaExempt entry can be extended with an additional 30 days at any IO (cost 1900 THB), in case you would be short on time for the next steps.

2. Send the equivalent of 800.000 THB over from your foreign account to your thai bank-account, and make sure that the transaction will be coded as coming from abroad on your thai bank-book.

3. Apply for a 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa at the IO of the place where you want to stay long-term in Thailand.  This has to be done 15 days (some offices require 21 days) before the permission to stay from your (extended) VisaExempt entry expires.

Attached the requirements below.  

Please note that Clause 8 of the requirements asking for evidence of a Rental Agreement between the Applicant and the Landlord, as well as a Location map of the house is ONLY applicable when you apply at Chiang Wattana (CW government complex in Bangkok).

However it might be useful to enquire at your local IO whether they impose additional requirements not mentioned in the document linked above.

4. In the last month of that 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa, you can apply for a 1-year extension of stay at the same IO where you made the 90-day Non Imm O - retirement application.

The origins of the 800K in your thai bank-account don't need to be proven again, but the money has to be at least 2 months in your thai bank-account before doing the application for extension.

That will be no problem as you needed to have the 800K already on your thai bank-account when applying for the 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa 2-3 months earlier.

5. Once your 1-year extension of stay has been granted, you actually have same status as you had previously.

Because the conditions and requirements for an extension of stay based on an OA - retirement Visa or on an O - retirement Visa are the same.  But with a nice extra bonus, because when applying for the Non Imm O - retirement Visa there is no need to subscribe to the bogus thai-approved health-insurance scam.

 

Note: If you are married to a thai national, you can follow the exact same steps as outlined above.  But instead of applying for a 90-day Non Imm O - retirement Visa and subsequent extension, you can do it for reason of marriage (instead of retirement).  The requirements are somewhat different (you would of course have to provide proof of being married) , but the bonus there is that you only need to provide evidence of 400K on your thai bank-account.

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

1551323081128 - Non Imm O retirement requirements.pdf

Edited January 8, 2020 by Peter Denis

[LawrenceN]

3 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Direct bank to bank international overseas transfers have that code.. Your pension service presumably uses a partner bank or clearing bank (more common with americans than europeans I think). 

Or as I suggested, using transferwise which has a specific option to send it that way, and has that code. 

I like the Transferwise idea, will probably go with that. Thanks!

[Peter Denis]

3 minutes ago, LawrenceN said:

I like the Transferwise idea, will probably go with that. Thanks!

Some info on TransferWise > https://transferwise.com/

TransferWise is a very fast and inexpensive way to transfer funds from your foreign bank-account to a thai bank-account.  Many TVF members are making use of that service, and there are many threads on it on the Forum.

TransferWise uses the mid-exchange rate (which is the actual conversion rate and not the inflated rate that banks charge you) and charges a relatively small fee for its service.

Their 'trick' is that they do not physically transfer your funds, but they have agreements with partner-banks in Thailand and your transfer is actually a domestic transfer, as it is their partner-bank that transfers the funds to your bank-account.

When you need to prove to your Immigration Office that the funds on your thai bank-account originated from abroad, that can cause a problem.

However, the transfer WILL show up in your Thai bank account as an International Transfer WHEN:

1. your account is from one of the three partner banks TW use (Bangkok bank, Kasikorn bank and TMB)

2. you have (previously) requested that TW tag that bank as your preferred direct transfer route (you only have to do this once, NOT for every transfer)

3. you designate that account as the receiving Thai account on your transfer applications and

4. you choose the "long term stay in Thailand option in the reason for transfer in your transfer applications.

If your Thai bank-account is NOT with one of the three partner banks TW WILL still route your transfer via one of those three banks, to be forwarded (immediately) to your own account. But, because the final leg of the transfer is between two Thai banks the code shown in your own bank account will be a "local transfer" code and NOT an International Transfer.

So when it is required to prove to IO that the funds on your thai bank-account originated from abroad,

simply make sure that the 4 conditions have been fulfilled the first time you do a test-transfer and check whether the correct international transfer-code appears next to the transaction in your bank-book.  If that's the case, you can from then on use TransferWise to do all your foreign transfers to that thai bank-account and they will show up as international transfers.

 

 

[LawrenceN]

To Peter Denis:

I'm not quoting, just to avoid repeating all of that. But . . .

Now that's what I call a thorough response. Thanks for that wealth of information. That's an outline worth saving.

(Do I need to say no sarcasm intended? I hope not.)

[MeePeeMai]

7 minutes ago, LawrenceN said:

I like the Transferwise idea, will probably go with that. Thanks!

Just make sure that when you do your money transfers with TransferWise, you chose the option "Funds for long term stay in Thailand" (when asked what your reason is for sending the money).  That way (using a Bangkok bank acct), your TransferWise deposits will be coded as FTT.

[DrJack54]

OP, just one added point. If CM won't accept your additional info and you end up being forced to start over with new non o, keep in mind you can obtain one at consulates outside of Thailand. The one important difference is that you do not have to demonstrate the origin of the funds. As you already have 500k in Thai bank and only need add 300k more it may suit you better. 

Side note if you can afford it stick 800k in FD account and just leave it.

Edited January 8, 2020 by DrJack54

[Peter Denis]

13 minutes ago, LawrenceN said:

To Peter Denis:

Hi Lawrence, I just PM-ed you a comprehensive roadmap on how to convert to a Non Imm O - retirement Visa.

It contains more options and detail than the outline provided in post #18.

Cheers and success!

[HampiK]

45 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I never understand why people have pensions, etc. transferred directly into Thai accounts.

From my experience, a total resolution to the transfer issue is to have them sent into your home country bank.

Then, wire transfer to BKB they will post as " international transfer".

Yes, it cost me $25 so what no issues or hassles so far.

Some have the problem to keep the bank in their home country. Not every country have the same standards for who is allowed to keep an open account. Or it was the easiest way at that time.

Else I would agree (if you still have an home country bank-account) put your pensions there and transfer little bit more than the minimum required... and if you need more money.. wait for good/better exchange rate.

[tgeezer]

Speak in English, ask to see a Senior Officer and ask him or her what you are to do, pointing out that you can not change the past. They know that it is a technicality but they must be under instructions to treat every applicant as a new applicant.  

[Maestro]

7 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

It's appalling that your IO doesn't accept the foreign origin of the funds on your bank-account, even though - as you rightly mention - every reasonable person can see that the money was deposited from the same source to the same account in the same amount as it had been. Unfortunately, reasonable people aren't employed at CM Immigration.

 

From the opening post of this topic I understand that that the OP has not yet submitted to immigration the bank's letter confirming the foreign source of the income. It is this letter that matters to immigration, not the codes in the bank book.

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post and the replies to it.

[Maestro]

13 hours ago, LawrenceN said:

Oh, by the way, the mixed Income/deposit method no longer appears to be an option at CM. I have 500,000+ on deposit, but Imm wasn't interested in adding the monthly verifiable FTT deposit.

 

The revised version of the requirements for the retirement extension (Police Order 548/2562) no longer has the combination of income and money in the bank as an option.

 

//Edit: The Police Order does allow the combination of income and money in the bank.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Maestro
As per my edit note.

[Jingthing]

34 minutes ago, Maestro said:

 

The revised version of the requirements for the retirement extension (Police Order 548/2562) no longer has the combination of income and money in the bank as an option.

Are you sure about that?

That seems to be about health insurance for O-A.

From your link second page item (5) is about the combination method.

So you're saying that is gone now?

I'm not seeing that.

 

 

[Maestro]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Are you sure about that?

That seems to be about health insurance for O-A.

From your link second page item (5) is about the combination method.

So you're saying that is gone now?

I'm not seeing that.

 

Oops, I read the Police Order too fast and missed that paragraph (5) specifically allows the combination of income and money in the bank.

 

Thank you catching the error, Jingthing.

[legend49]

15 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

I never understand why people have pensions, etc. transferred directly into Thai accounts.

From my experience, a total resolution to the transfer issue is to have them sent into your home country bank.

Then, wire transfer to BKB they will post as " international transfer".

Yes, it cost me $25 so what no issues or hassles so far.

You have a good bank, HSBC increased my international transfers from $22 to $50. No wonder the banks are rich.

[LawrenceN]

7 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

From the opening post of this topic I understand that that the OP has not yet submitted to immigration the bank's letter confirming the foreign source of the income. It is this letter that matters to immigration, not the codes in the bank book.

I guess I neglected to say that above. BB won't certify that the deposits came from abroad. The asst. mgr. says her hands are tied by regulations. Someone suggested requesting an FET. I plan to do that.