Germany's other migration wave: the pensioner exodus

[Dustdevil]

9 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

It's like a frog in a boiling pot. How on God's green earth does somebody sit around for 4 or 5 decades and then suddenly realize they haven't prepared for retirement? 

 

The economic refugees also compound the problem as now they are a government expense and do not pay the taxes or contribute to their homeland. If you do personally I am not aiming this at you. I am talking about people who live solely off of government entitlements, never visit their home country, and have no other income source, except maybe a small savings. 

 

I can only speak for the situation in the USA but I feel that when you ditch America your SS should be cut. Living abroad is a privilege and a personal choice.

 

When pension schemes were thought up to give people basic security people weren't flying around the world. The money spent abroad doesn't feed the economy back home and creates a burden for the next generation who will not be lucky enough to receive benefits at the same age or if ever.

 

Government schemes are meant to aid retirement. Anybody in their right mind has separate investments to achieve a more comfortable retirement.

 

I just can't imagine sitting around for 40 or 50 years and then wake up one morning and conclude I had better move to Bulgaria. Do they not have retirement planners over there?

 

That's the problem. People think the government will take care of them and give it no more thought. When the government fails to provide anything other than the most basic existence they are in disbelief. 

 

This is nothing more than an equation. When you put the minimum in you get the minimum out. Oh, and don't assume the gubernment got your back with all dem entitlements.

 

 

 

 

 

I can't see any moral, political or legal reason why your social security should be cut just because you leave the United States. You've been paying into the system for decades.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Dustdevil

[Dustdevil]

Surprisingly low social security for an EU citizen. Combined for a couple only 1200 Euros? The average benefit for retired workers in the U.S. is $17,536 per annum or $1461/mo. http://www.pensionrights.org/publications/statistic/income-social-security

That's for one person. It's not quite enough to live in the U.S. I live in a city of 400,000 (including suburban townships) and I can live on $1800-1900 a month if I don't dine out much, and that includes car ownership. It also includes the $300 or so I pay in premiums per month for Medicare, which, with the supplemental program I choose, allows me 100% access without any co-pays or deductibles, and I can go straight to any specialist I want--even at famous hospitals like Johns Hopkins (but not the Mayo Clinic) if I felt the need. But my town has excellent hospitals and specialists. Medicare and supplement cover In-patient hospital care 100% for at least a year or so. I guess I wouldn't give up my situation to live in Thailand. The only place there I really like is Chiang Mai and the air there is so hazardous.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Dustdevil

[StayinThailand2much]

19 hours ago, TheDark said:

What is this all about?

 

I thought pensions are more like 2500 to 3500 euros per person?

What's going on here? Are pensions around Europe really that low in general? 1200 per person or even 600 per person?

That's <deleted> up. 

In Germany, pensions are paid directly from social security contributions of current employees. While employment has risen in Germany in recent years, wages and salaries have declined. Germany has pretty much the lowest wages in all of Western Europe. More pensioners, and lower or stagnant pay of the employed means less money transferred to pensioners.

 

Taxes are, at the same time, by far the highest (besides Scandinavia). So are living costs, esp. for housing and electricity. No wonder, that Germans have some of the lowest life-savings among OECD countries, well behind Greeks, Portuguese, and the Spanish.

 

 

[chrisandsu]

29 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You think factory workers, bus drivers, road sweepers, shelf stackers, cabbies, dustmen et al have spare money to make investments? You must be living in a different world to me.

Especially when those investments are being top upped by mythical money (quantitiveeasing) Once that money topples so will Jonny big balls .

[Beggar]

4 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

So are living costs, esp. for housing and electricity. No wonder, that Germans have the lowest life-savings among OECD countries. 

What should they save for? The EZB destroyes most pension plans and obviously nobody really seems to care much. 

[fvw53]

10 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

It's like a frog in a boiling pot. How on God's green earth does somebody sit around for 4 or 5 decades and then suddenly realize they haven't prepared for retirement? 

 

The economic refugees also compound the problem as now they are a government expense and do not pay the taxes or contribute to their homeland. If you do personally I am not aiming this at you. I am talking about people who live solely off of government entitlements, never visit their home country, and have no other income source, except maybe a small savings. 

 

I can only speak for the situation in the USA but I feel that when you ditch America your SS should be cut. Living abroad is a privilege and a personal choice.

 

When pension schemes were thought up to give people basic security people weren't flying around the world. The money spent abroad doesn't feed the economy back home and creates a burden for the next generation who will not be lucky enough to receive benefits at the same age or if ever.

 

Government schemes are meant to aid retirement. Anybody in their right mind has separate investments to achieve a more comfortable retirement.

 

I just can't imagine sitting around for 40 or 50 years and then wake up one morning and conclude I had better move to Bulgaria. Do they not have retirement planners over there?

 

That's the problem. People think the government will take care of them and give it no more thought. When the government fails to provide anything other than the most basic existence they are in disbelief. 

 

This is nothing more than an equation. When you put the minimum in you get the minimum out. Oh, and don't assume the gubernment got your back with all dem entitlements.

 

 

 

 

 

It would be interesting to know how many Americans work for 7 USD per hour and how those people plan for their pension

[Mansell]

How wonderful that you think if we leave the US we should forfeit our Social Security payments. Glad that you have no say in these things. If you are here in Thailand and on SS, please feel free to decline your payments and put your money where your mouth is......I doubt that will happen until piggies fly.

I payed into the system for decades and it is my money....but thanks for your altruistic suggestion....Not!

[hansnl]

10 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

It's like a frog in a boiling pot. How on God's green earth does somebody sit around for 4 or 5 decades and then suddenly realize they haven't prepared for retirement? 

 

The economic refugees also compound the problem as now they are a government expense and do not pay the taxes or contribute to their homeland. If you do personally I am not aiming this at you. I am talking about people who live solely off of government entitlements, never visit their home country, and have no other income source, except maybe a small savings. 

 

I can only speak for the situation in the USA but I feel that when you ditch America your SS should be cut. Living abroad is a privilege and a personal choice.

 

When pension schemes were thought up to give people basic security people weren't flying around the world. The money spent abroad doesn't feed the economy back home and creates a burden for the next generation who will not be lucky enough to receive benefits at the same age or if ever.

 

Government schemes are meant to aid retirement. Anybody in their right mind has separate investments to achieve a more comfortable retirement.

 

I just can't imagine sitting around for 40 or 50 years and then wake up one morning and conclude I had better move to Bulgaria. Do they not have retirement planners over there?

 

That's the problem. People think the government will take care of them and give it no more thought. When the government fails to provide anything other than the most basic existence they are in disbelief. 

 

This is nothing more than an equation. When you put the minimum in you get the minimum out. Oh, and don't assume the gubernment got your back with all dem entitlements.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, but people in Europe do prepare for retirement, by paying premiums for pension funds, the problem is the government is stealing from these pension funds leaving the pensioners with not enough.

For example, my pension fund has doubled it's funds since 2008 and makes an annual growth of 6%, besides receiving paid in premiums.

The government has decided, probably, to bring the pensioners to poverty by forbidding the pension funds to index the pensions.

Because prices, rents, taxes go up, the pensioners get poorer.

Now, the pension funds have so much money they could easily index the pensions, but are not allowed to do so because of government rules.

My pension fund, for example, has so much money it could easily pay and index for the next thirty years even if no premiums come in or would there be any profit on investments.

Same thing in many other countries in Europe.

And the EU is very interested in this capital, which is frightening.

The capital? 1500 billion Euro.

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Dustdevil said:

I can't see any moral, political or legal reason why your social security should be cut just because you leave the United States. You've been paying into the system for decades.

Exactly.

Also the level of the benefit is directly linked to the amount paid in.

Also a large portion of retired Americans abroad have returned to their country of origin such as the Philippines and Mexico.

Happily there is no political will to cut off Americans abroad in such a brutal manner.

[Proboscis]

12 hours ago, champers said:

The French bring chaos to the country if Government messes with their pensions. Fair play to them.

 

Have you seen the pension mess in France? Different rates to different types of employment, sectors etc.

 

I met a retiree from the French navy in Asia who, now in his mid forties, lives very well on his pension and does not have to work. Who pays this? The taxpayer, of course.

[Jingthing]

The phenomenon of retired economic refugee has been a real thing for a very long time. People from relatively richer countries moving abroad to improve their quality of life, generally fitting into these rough categories:

 

-- To be able to retire at all, EVER, in their home country

-- To be able to retire EARLIER than they would have been able to in their home country

-- To be able to afford extra amenities that wouldn't be possible in their home countries 

 

People that can afford to retire in their home country in comfort and security also retire abroad but they can't really be seen as fitting into any label of economic refugees. Some may even move to places much more expensive than their home countries. 

 

As far as the destination countries, they are of course always free to adjust their rules to attract more, fewer, or even no retired economic refugees.

 

I think there is a consensus understanding that Thailand in recent years has become objectively less welcoming to lower wealth retired expats though there are still many that will stay and move here that fit into the rough categories I listed above.

 

So Thailand may be on a long term trend to phase out retired expat economic refugees but for the foreseeable future anyway there will be others still seeking that demographic and probably new countries that will open up to that in the future. Some countries in Africa comes to mind for longer term potential.

[zydeco]

11 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

I can only speak for the situation in the USA but I feel that when you ditch America your SS should be cut. Living abroad is a privilege and a personal choice.

How many US government paychecks do you get?

[wwest5829]

10 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

Such an American way of looking at things . Not everyone in this life is blessed with a job/self employment that can earn enough to be able to save enough or anything in retirement. Europeans are forced to pay excessively high taxes to offset the cost of old age . When they get there after a lifetime of work inflation has outstripped the money they are supposed to live on ! I say get rid of welfare altogether and get rid of parasite economic migrants . 

Careful not to brand Americans by this bent opinion. I am another American and oppose his point of view. Yes, I made unwise employment decisions remaining to teach in a lower paying state after earning my B.A. My Social security payments (which both myself and my employer paid into over my 41 years of teaching) this year is $1306.00 per month. And he declares I should not get this because I cannot live as well in the U.S. on my total sustainable monthly budget of a little more than $2400.00 a month (so I draw the difference from savings, retirement funds to meet the required Thailand retirement income of 65K baht). The working middle class in many of our western nations is facing the same issues. The growth in the income/wealth gap is evidencing itself veryapparently in both this Retirement issue and in the justified frustration/anger being evidenced in political madness.

[wwest5829]

8 hours ago, candide said:

You conveniently omitted a part of the quote in order to support your prejudiced view. The exact quote is:

"Others in that category interviewed by Reuters here cited the perception that asylum seekers were getting more financial support than pensioners."

Others...perception...

 

More generally, Germany's problem is the decrease of population so that there are not enough young people to pay for old people's pensions. Immigration is the only way for Germany to finance pensions and to maintain growth.

Agreed, the aging population and lower birth rate must be taken into account. Ironically, out of justified economic frustration/anger immigrants are pointed at as the problem rather than recognition that, like it or not, those immigrants are required to fill the needed occupation and increase the tax revenues. Sticky wicket ...

[KhunBENQ]

Surprised to see that the thread drew interest.

German workers pension system is doomed and one of the worst in central Europe.

It can't and won't work with the existing and developing demographics.

Sooner or later pension fund will have to be filled with tax money.

Everyone knows and politicians doing some kludge, putting plaster here and there.

Average pension in the west is about 1200 Euro per month.

 

Completely different situation for public servants where the low end is about 2500 Euro per month. All paid from tax money and a huge growing burden.

[zydeco]

2 hours ago, Dustdevil said:

I can't see any moral, political or legal reason why your social security should be cut just because you leave the United States. You've been paying into the system for decades.

CryingDick seems to have a rant and rage going against expats in Thailand. Frankly, I don't know why he posts on TVF. I'm not objecting to his posts, just asking why chooses to post here, with at least 12 hours difference between Thailand and his own time zone. There must be plenty of more localized forums that work in real time for him. His posts here are usually just attacks.  While this is a topic about German expats, for instance, he has elected to try and turn it into one that almost trolls American expats exclusively. I don't know his motivations.

 

I do know, however, that on a more general note these forums are filled with embittered former expats who simply couldn't hack it living abroad. And because they failed, they are hoping to see anyone who has managed to live here even partially successfully fail as miserably as they did. I'm not accusing CryingDick of that, of course. It's just a general observation. 

 

The German couple look happy to me. I'm glad they found circumstances that make their life more meaningful. A lot of us in Thailand are doing the same thing. Yes, it's cheaper to live here. But there are other things that matter as well. Traditionally, there has been less stress, a slower pace to living, a chance to go with the flow rather than chase after the best car, the best house, the fanciest wine, the most sparkling jewelry. And a lot of the failed expats out there simply hate those expats in Thailand who have achieved this.

[micmichd]

13 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

About says it all. And not only in Germany.

People that don't work, never have and never will get more than pensioners in Germany. And the majority of those are Germans. 

 

Germany by constitution is obliged to grant eqal access to social benefits to everyone (regardless of where they come from) So, the only solution for Germany would be a return to Bismarck's system of social security for active workers only.

Sounds cruel, but there is no other way in the long run. Or else Germany will become a communist nanny state where everyone lives at the poverty level - and none of the successful (the "elite") will be allowed to leave the country. 

Don't make a mistake: for the average jobless German you are already elite if you have a good job. And their envy will follow you. 

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, micmichd said:

People that don't work, never have and never will get more than pensioners in Germany. And the majority of those are Germans. 

 

Germany by constitution is obliged to grant eqal access to social benefits to everyone (regardless of where they come from) So, the only solution for Germany would be a return to Bismarck's system of social security for active workers only.

Sounds cruel, but there is no other way in the long run. Or else Germany will become a communist nanny state where everyone lives at the poverty level - and none of the successful (the "elite") will be allowed to leave the country. 

Don't make a mistake: for the average jobless German you are already elite if you have a good job. And their envy will follow you. 

There was me thinking Germany was the richest European country, with the biggest pensions.

The two poor retirees shown in the OP, seem to be getting double my Brit government pension.

[yogi100]

11 hours ago, Cryingdick said:

It's like a frog in a boiling pot. How on God's green earth does somebody sit around for 4 or 5 decades and then suddenly realize they haven't prepared for retirement? 

 

The economic refugees also compound the problem as now they are a government expense and do not pay the taxes or contribute to their homeland. If you do personally I am not aiming this at you. I am talking about people who live solely off of government entitlements, never visit their home country, and have no other income source, except maybe a small savings. 

 

I can only speak for the situation in the USA but I feel that when you ditch America your SS should be cut. Living abroad is a privilege and a personal choice.

 

When pension schemes were thought up to give people basic security people weren't flying around the world. The money spent abroad doesn't feed the economy back home and creates a burden for the next generation who will not be lucky enough to receive benefits at the same age or if ever.

 

Government schemes are meant to aid retirement. Anybody in their right mind has separate investments to achieve a more comfortable retirement.

 

I just can't imagine sitting around for 40 or 50 years and then wake up one morning and conclude I had better move to Bulgaria. Do they not have retirement planners over there?

 

That's the problem. People think the government will take care of them and give it no more thought. When the government fails to provide anything other than the most basic existence they are in disbelief. 

 

This is nothing more than an equation. When you put the minimum in you get the minimum out. Oh, and don't assume the gubernment got your back with all dem entitlements.

 

 

 

 

 

When we work in the UK we have to pay into a national fund to pay for our health care and pension provision. We are not offered the choice, there is no choice unless we want to pay for additional arrangements. I believe it's a similar arrangement in the Fatherland. Living abroad maybe a choice but it is certainly not a privilege.

 

As it is a UK pensioner could never afford to live overseas unless he has made the necessary additional arrangements. But few of them have been in a position to do so. Millions of our OAPs live on about 6000 baht a week. That speaks for itself.

 

When you retire you should be able to live where you like and draw your pension and receive health care when needed. We've paid for it after all. The gimmegrants rarely have.

 

Liberal politicians have been so eager to flood our countries with hordes of useless bloodsucking immigrants that they've realised finally that there are no longer sufficient funds in the pot. So who has to suffer, the very people who have in some cases spent a lifetime hoping to fill that same pot up.

 

But it's our own fault because we've been too stupid for too long and too scared of being called racists to do anything about it.

[micmichd]

12 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

There was me thinking Germany was the richest European country, with the biggest pensions.

The two poor retirees shown in the OP, seem to be getting double my Brit government pension.

The poor retirees in the OP count as 2 individuals, while you probably count as 1 individual. So, no difference really. 

 

German pensions for individuals for individual labour are not high. Swiss, Dutch, and even Greek pensioners are better off. But Germany has all kinds of family add-ons for households (not for individuals), and these get higher and higher. The retirees in the OP obviously don't get these family add-ons, and that's why they had to leave Germany. 

[abrahamzvi]

14 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

When a country spends more money on housing , feeding , healthcare , police , on a section of the country who will contribute next to nothing other then a kebab then they do on their own people who created the prosperity then they should be ashamed . 

I do agree that the government should do more to make sure retirees are able to make a living of their retirement benefits, which would mean that a complete overhaul of the system will have to take place, but the way the state treats refugees is something Germans should be proud of, I am!

[rickudon]

In the UK, until recently there was no legal requirement to have a private or company pension, only the state pension was compulsory - which is based on what you need to survive (not including rent). So many pensioners live just above the poverty line. My last job provided no company pension and only legal minimum wage - i took it because i had been made redundant from my previous job and never did find another similar professional  one. My state pension is 137 GBP per week (about 5,500 baht).

Fortunately my previous 2 jobs did include good index linked pensions - otherwise no way could i live here in Thailand, but even they only add up to 1200 GBP per month - before tax .....

 

Private pensions are a joke - my ex-wife in the UK paid into one for 25 years, and got a magnificent 600 GBP - A YEAR! She retired 5 years ago - but is still working as she couldn't survive otherwise (not old enough for state pension yet). And we were both considered middle class by occupation - I hate to think how the average shop worker survives when they retire.

 

Because of divorce i had no home, so staying in the UK after retirement was not really an option - would have cost me half my pension for rent. In most of western Europe, housing, transport and home fuel costs eat up most of your income, significant saving is not that easy. The options for many pensioners in Europe are bleak, migrating is often the best option.

 

[abrahamzvi]

10 hours ago, candide said:

You conveniently omitted a part of the quote in order to support your prejudiced view. The exact quote is:

"Others in that category interviewed by Reuters here cited the perception that asylum seekers were getting more financial support than pensioners."

Others...perception...

 

More generally, Germany's problem is the decrease of population so that there are not enough young people to pay for old people's pensions. Immigration is the only way for Germany to finance pensions and to maintain growth.

You are right in as much as the decrease of population is one factor, but even with more young people paying in, the present system can't make sure that pensions allowing low income earners to lead a decent life on retirement are paid. A complete overhaul is needed, following the Dutch system, or the Swiss one. If the present system isn't overhauled, it will go bust, unless the tax payer supports it to the tune of 75 to 85%, which no government can afford.

[micmichd]

48 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

When we work in the UK we have to pay into a national fund to pay for our health care and pension provision. We are not offered the choice, there is no choice unless we want to pay for additional arrangements. I believe it's a similar arrangement in the Fatherland. Living abroad maybe a choice but it is certainly not a privilege.

 

As it is a UK pensioner could never afford to live overseas unless he has made the necessary additional arrangements. But few of them have been in a position to do so. Millions of our OAPs live on about 6000 baht a week. That speaks for itself.

 

When you retire you should be able to live where you like and draw your pension and receive health care when needed. We've paid for it after all. The gimmegrants rarely have.

 

Liberal politicians have been so eager to flood our countries with hordes of useless bloodsucking immigrants that they've realised finally that there are no longer sufficient funds in the pot. So who has to suffer, the very people who have in some cases spent a lifetime hoping to fill that same pot up.

 

But it's our own fault because we've been too stupid for too long and too scared of being called racists to do anything about it.

Remember the so-called "German re-unification in 1989 when milions of East Germans threatened to occupy West Germany if they don't get Deutsche Mark? 

That's where big parts of West German pensions went - just to make Germany Great again.

 

And then came millions of Germans from Russia. Most of them could not speak a word of German. But they called themselves Germans, so they had not to claim asylum to get pampered by the German nanny state.  

 

The Arabian and African immigrants came much later so they can't be the reason why the German pensions are so low. 

[CMNightRider]

19 hours ago, TheDark said:

What is this all about?

 

I thought pensions are more like 2500 to 3500 euros per person?

What's going on here? Are pensions around Europe really that low in general? 1200 per person or even 600 per person?

That's <deleted> up. 

The average Thai would love to have a pension of 1,200 euros a month.  Most of the Thai Immigration officers who process our yearly visa's barely have two nickels to rub together. 

[yogi100]

4 minutes ago, micmichd said:

Remember the so-called "German re-unification in 1989 when milions of East Germans threatened to occupy West Germany if they don't get Deutsche Mark? 

That's where big parts of West German pensions went - just to make Germany Great again.

 

And then came millions of Germans from Russia. Most of them could not speak a word of German. But they called themselves Germans, so they had not to claim asylum to get pampered by the German nanny state.  

 

The Arabian and African immigrants came much later so they can't be the reason why the German pensions are so low. 

You see we in the UK we don't hear too much about that.

 

According to the BBC the 'new Germans' are integrating nicely and their eagerness to fit in and work are the reason why the country and its economy is prospering.

 

However we did hear Merkel say back in 2010 that the multicultural experiment in Germany has been a massive failure. But we naturally assumed that she must have been on the schnapps to come out with such obvious nonsense.

[yogi100]

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

My UK government pension is 150 pounds/week (620 pounds/month).

So is mine.

[BritManToo]

18 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Most of the Thai Immigration officers who process our yearly visa's barely have two nickels to rub together. 

Only if you count their official wage.

[ThomasThBKK]

12 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

You see we in the UK we don't hear too much about that.

 

According to the BBC the 'new Germans' are integrating nicely and their eagerness to fit in and work are the reason why the country and its economy is prospering.

 

However we did hear Merkel say back in 2010 that the multicultural experiment in Germany has been a massive failure. But we naturally assumed that she must have been on the schnapps to come out with such obvious nonsense.

  

All studies suggest the BBC is right: https://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2019/05/how-has-germanys-economy-been-affected-by-the-recent-surge-in-immigration.html

 

But maybe the US FED doesn't know much about economics? Who knows.

 

 

Quote

By the numbers: Most unauthorized immigrants in Europe lived in Germany (1 million–1.2 million), the U.K. (800,000–1.2 million), Italy (500,000–700,000) or France (300,000–400,000).

• Unauthorized immigrants account for no more than 2%, and in most cases less than 1%, of populations in countries across Europe.

In the U.S., meanwhile, Pew's estimate as of 2017 is 10.5 million unauthorized immigrants, or 3.2% of the total population.

• While nearly half in the U.S. hail from Mexico, that's only the case for 20% of those arriving in the last five years, with similar numbers coming from Northern Triangle countries (17%) and countries in Asia (23%).

There's also no difference in terms of illegal immigration between the UK and germany: https://www.axios.com/illegal-immigrants-europe-uk-germany-refugees-6e4b8556-a263-4db2-9a03-b8ebc8276423.html 

 

 

 

 

 

[sirineou]

5 hours ago, DPKANKAN said:

And not just Germany. I could not live on my UK pension here in Thailand, after 43 years of paying in, let alone the UK!!!

I know, I worked in the High Rise construction industry in Manhattan , putting up buildings I would never afford to live in all my life.

The fat cats are getting fatter  and the rest of the population is left to fight over the crumbs arguing with each other about the merits of "Capitalism" over 'Socialism" . IMO we for the most part are idiots and deserve what we get.