Illogical Thailand

[ThaiGoon]

Jai yen, khun thaigoon. I think it is understandable that the OP must have encountered a significant no. of occasions where a thai person has acted in an illogical manner to him. That he just picked one example to find out the reason behind it. And he has stressed already that he is not trying to bash the whole nation.

Try to focus on what his main point is.

I know that he must have had a number of bad experiences with some Thai people. But the fact that he picked one of the trivial incidents to illustrate his point does suggest perhaps his way of thinking might not be as logical as he believes.

[mrt273nva]

I mean, if you really believed that occasionally you got treated badly by some Thai people, what urged you to create a thread titled "illogical Thailand"? Could you explain me a bit of your logic behind this?

My logic behind the post is an attempt to gain a bit more insight into the Thai psyche. It is fact that different cultures use different logic to shape their daily life. Just because I recognize that fact does not mean that it is wrong or right. I just want more perceptive so that my life as well as others can get along better in interpersonal Thai/farang relationships.

You seem to be a very disturbed individual in which I would like to seek more insight aswell. What makes you tick? What makes others tick?

Do you understand my logic now?

[ThaiGoon]

It's pretty obvious one of the things that makes me tick (or disturbs me) is illogical people who think they are logical.

[meemiathai]

At least I understood you, MRT!

Anyway, lets have some fights here! It is good for health. Being too logical all the time makes a human brain tired sometimes.

[mrt273nva]

It's pretty obvious one of the things that makes me tick (or disturbs me) is illogical people who think they are logical.

You are one of those people that is impossible to create a dialogue with. I won’t even waste my time with you. Does anyone else have anything constructive to add to this discussion?

[seagull]

It's pretty obvious one of the things that makes me tick (or disturbs me) is illogical people who think they are logical.

You are one of those people that is impossible to create a dialogue with. I won't even waste my time with you. Does anyone else have anything constructive to add to this discussion?

Yes I have! Let's have a bashers forum where there is no mods, and it is free-for-all. .

Ok, I know, it is not constructive and off topic. I am gone!

[kiakaha]

western logic : conceive an action, recursively consider "if-then-else" consequences, then perform or not perform the action or consider an alternate action and repeat the logic process

thai logic : conceive and perform an action in a simultaneous thought, consequences not considered but handled later on with 1 teaspoon of "mai pen rai" and a pinch of "kraeng jai"

[A_Traveller]

The issue here is that there is a body of research which shows that Asians do view the world differently from Europeans/Americans. In short form, Asians are more likely to see holistically and, for convenience I'll use the term farang, see in a granular {logical?} manner.

An example of this was the use of an image of an aquarium, consistently Asian students would see the shoaling of the fish and the relationships within that whereas the Caucasian's would 'see' the destination of the shoal.

Examples of this work was undertaken by Kitayama, Duffy, & Kawamura, and academically published a few years ago {2003 ?}.

There's a book distilling this by Richard Nisbet (sp?) called The Geography of Thought which is a worthwhile introduction to this subject.

Regards

[PeaceBlondie]

The example that was given, about trying something on in a store before deciding if you'll buy it, is a good example of the cultural differences. I brought my own motorcycle helmet from the West, size XL or XXL. I have a huge head! The first time I tried to buy another one, my Thai boyfriend took me to a big local vendor. Excuse me, but you simply cannot buy a helmet that you'll use for hundreds of hours, without seeing if it even fits over your ears. The vendor had nothing above Western size small. When I said I couldn't buy one, my boyfriend informed me that I was rude or illogical for trying them on and then not buying one. Period.

So, that might explain the example.

Scott's post was spot on the mark for employment, but vendor-customer relationships should not be the same. When I was employed as a teacher, I learned that they did not want any suggestions from foreigners. So I stopped talking. At the end, the boss wanted me to come by at the end of the month to pick up my paycheck. I tried to explain that due to her country, her school's director, and herself, I had to fly around the world and wouldn't be there. She's a nice bright lady, but she was four degrees of separation apart from me, in understanding the predicament she had helped put me in.

I've given up on wishing that most Thaiswill think like Westerners. I've almost given up trying to get them to understand how we think. So, I'll just figure out what makes them do what they do. I still believe that all human behavior is learned, and caused.

We discovered this week that VIP buses can sell tickets two weeks in advance. My 39 year old boyfriend/ex-manager thought you couldn't do that. He never calls the shop to ask if the bike is ready to pick up; we just ride over there. It relates to how things were done in the 1970's. Or the 1770's.

[jayjayjayjay]

It seems at times that Thailand is without logic. I understand that there must be logic but it is so vastly different from western logic. I am confused on a daily basis as to the inner workings of many of the Thai's minds. I find myself yearning to understand for the sake of my own sanity.

I have developed many of my own theories that usually end up being incorrect.

My latest theory to understand the Thai thought process involves heavy overtones of religion (but I believe Buddhism to be a philosophy not a religion) and a poor educational system. I find that common sense is replaced by superstition.

I am desperately trying to come to terms with some form of logic that I am able to process but I come up short every time. I love Thailand and the Thai people but ###### are they confusing to me.

any thoughts?

mrt, I wouldn't sweat over this guys reation, could have been anything that set him off, fight with the missus, arguement over dogs barking next door, brother-in-law hasn't returned his pickup-for three weeks, found out the missus has a 300,000 baht gambling debt.... etc. feel lucky that in general (and I know it's not everyone) farangs do have more money than Thai's, and every now and then we use this to our advantage.

I know I will never understand the way of thinking (thus logic) for the majority in this country, a lot of it is passed through the generations and only now do I see some Bangkokian reacting a little different. I like to think it goes back to how lucky this country always has been, historically food has always been available, bananas, mangoes, the list of native fruits must be pages long, plentiful fish, you even find crabs in upcountry roadside water pools. In summary, they have never had to work particularily hard to get by. As a race of people they have had the simpliest agronomy to provide year round food. The lack of challenges for general survival has resulted in a gentle (mostly) family orientated, social but sometimes irresponsible culture. Logical thinking, has never developed, maybe one in 5 Thais have what I find to be common sense and logical thinking.

[qwertz]

It seems at times that Thailand is without logic. I understand that there must be logic but it is so vastly different from western logic. I am confused on a daily basis as to the inner workings of many of the Thai's minds. I find myself yearning to understand for the sake of my own sanity.

I have developed many of my own theories that usually end up being incorrect.

My latest theory to understand the Thai thought process involves heavy overtones of religion (but I believe Buddhism to be a philosophy not a religion) and a poor educational system. I find that common sense is replaced by superstition.

I am desperately trying to come to terms with some form of logic that I am able to process but I come up short every time. I love Thailand and the Thai people but ###### are they confusing to me.

any thoughts?

mrt, I wouldn't sweat over this guys reation, could have been anything that set him off, fight with the missus, arguement over dogs barking next door, brother-in-law hasn't returned his pickup-for three weeks, found out the missus has a 300,000 baht gambling debt.... etc. feel lucky that in general (and I know it's not everyone) farangs do have more money than Thai's, and every now and then we use this to our advantage.

I know I will never understand the way of thinking (thus logic) for the majority in this country, a lot of it is passed through the generations and only now do I see some Bangkokian reacting a little different. I like to think it goes back to how lucky this country always has been, historically food has always been available, bananas, mangoes, the list of native fruits must be pages long, plentiful fish, you even find crabs in upcountry roadside water pools. In summary, they have never had to work particularily hard to get by. As a race of people they have had the simpliest agronomy to provide year round food. The lack of challenges for general survival has resulted in a gentle (mostly) family orientated, social but sometimes irresponsible culture. Logical thinking, has never developed, maybe one in 5 Thais have what I find to be common sense and logical thinking.

Not only there, sir.

[mrt273nva]

It seems at times that Thailand is without logic. I understand that there must be logic but it is so vastly different from western logic. I am confused on a daily basis as to the inner workings of many of the Thai's minds. I find myself yearning to understand for the sake of my own sanity.

I have developed many of my own theories that usually end up being incorrect.

My latest theory to understand the Thai thought process involves heavy overtones of religion (but I believe Buddhism to be a philosophy not a religion) and a poor educational system. I find that common sense is replaced by superstition.

I am desperately trying to come to terms with some form of logic that I am able to process but I come up short every time. I love Thailand and the Thai people but ###### are they confusing to me.

any thoughts?

mrt, I wouldn't sweat over this guys reation, could have been anything that set him off, fight with the missus, arguement over dogs barking next door, brother-in-law hasn't returned his pickup-for three weeks, found out the missus has a 300,000 baht gambling debt.... etc. feel lucky that in general (and I know it's not everyone) farangs do have more money than Thai's, and every now and then we use this to our advantage.

I know I will never understand the way of thinking (thus logic) for the majority in this country, a lot of it is passed through the generations and only now do I see some Bangkokian reacting a little different. I like to think it goes back to how lucky this country always has been, historically food has always been available, bananas, mangoes, the list of native fruits must be pages long, plentiful fish, you even find crabs in upcountry roadside water pools. In summary, they have never had to work particularily hard to get by. As a race of people they have had the simpliest agronomy to provide year round food. The lack of challenges for general survival has resulted in a gentle (mostly) family orientated, social but sometimes irresponsible culture. Logical thinking, has never developed, maybe one in 5 Thais have what I find to be common sense and logical thinking.

Not only there, sir.

[jayjayjayjay]

It seems at times that Thailand is without logic. I understand that there must be logic but it is so vastly different from western logic. I am confused on a daily basis as to the inner workings of many of the Thai's minds. I find myself yearning to understand for the sake of my own sanity.

I have developed many of my own theories that usually end up being incorrect.

My latest theory to understand the Thai thought process involves heavy overtones of religion (but I believe Buddhism to be a philosophy not a religion) and a poor educational system. I find that common sense is replaced by superstition.

I am desperately trying to come to terms with some form of logic that I am able to process but I come up short every time. I love Thailand and the Thai people but ###### are they confusing to me.

any thoughts?

mrt, I wouldn't sweat over this guys reation, could have been anything that set him off, fight with the missus, arguement over dogs barking next door, brother-in-law hasn't returned his pickup-for three weeks, found out the missus has a 300,000 baht gambling debt.... etc. feel lucky that in general (and I know it's not everyone) farangs do have more money than Thai's, and every now and then we use this to our advantage.

I know I will never understand the way of thinking (thus logic) for the majority in this country, a lot of it is passed through the generations and only now do I see some Bangkokian reacting a little different. I like to think it goes back to how lucky this country always has been, historically food has always been available, bananas, mangoes, the list of native fruits must be pages long, plentiful fish, you even find crabs in upcountry roadside water pools. In summary, they have never had to work particularily hard to get by. As a race of people they have had the simpliest agronomy to provide year round food. The lack of challenges for general survival has resulted in a gentle (mostly) family orientated, social but sometimes irresponsible culture. Logical thinking, has never developed, maybe one in 5 Thais have what I find to be common sense and logical thinking.

Not only there, sir.

Edible I meant! ........... then again Som-Tum-Boo aint so edible, where do those crabs come from

[canuckamuck]

western logic : conceive an action, recursively consider "if-then-else" consequences, then perform or not perform the action or consider an alternate action and repeat the logic process

thai logic : conceive and perform an action in a simultaneous thought, consequences not considered but handled later on with 1 teaspoon of "mai pen rai" and a pinch of "kraeng jai"

Bravo: very well stated

[mrt273nva]

here is a quote that i saw the other day that i think fits perfectly with the thai mindset. comes from a farang but sounds very thai.

Making an issue of little things is one of the surest ways to spoil happiness. One's personal pride is felt to be vitally injured by surrender, but there is no quality of human nature so nearly royal as the abilitiy to yield gracefully. It shows small confidence in one's own nature to fear that compromise lessens self-control. To consider constantly the comfort and happiness of another is not a sign of weakness but strength. -- Charles Conrad

[Tod Daniels]

Going on my 3rd year living here with the munchkins in the glorious "Land 'O Thais", I have given up on attempting to unravel thai logic. That statement is an oxymoron if ever there was one.

My observations have shown the munchkins here as completely unable to see or pre-act to events they bring upon themselves. They seem unable to take responsibility for their actions. They are oh-so quick to blame someone else for the subsequent consequences or condition(s) brought on by their actions. Any foresight, forethought, or forward looking behavior seems purely dumb luck. Then again, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again.

You can never ever forget this IS a “developing third world country”. It has a huge majority of the population with a very marginal education (by first world standards). I am NOT talking about the brainwashing of "all things thai" or the "we-be-thai mentality", I mean real, valuable, applicable education. You can't lose sight of that while you are here, ever. It is also foolish to put first world values on a third world country's people, so I leave the previous statements as substantiated fact without any judgment. It is highly unlikely that the glorious "Land 'O Thais" will climb another rung up the ladder, in our lifetime or that of our children and actually become 'first world'. So it is what it is. ..

I interact with and speak munchkin-ese to the munchkins as much as I choose to in my day to day life. Mostly I ignore them, ignore their petty squabbles, ignore their selfishness, their face saving, as well as their inherent superiority complex about all things thai.

In mirror to the OP’s plight; I have seen too many vendors be less than polite when dealing with foreigners. I think it stems from having such a high density of tourists visiting the glorious "Land 'O Thais", as well as the perception that foreigners are rich. It is also a fact that for the most part the munchkins have the insulation of their language to 'hide behind', saying what they want with impunity, and suddenly clamming up when they realize too late you understand & speak munchkin-ese. I am surprised the store keeper continued his rant when you spoke to him in thai. I have not had bad manners or poor behavior continue once the language barrier wasn't the comforting insulating barrier they previously thought it was.

A good friend (a thai national, btw), mentioned to me that while I had become quite proficient in the thai language he was concerned as I was not becoming 'more thai'. I told him I took it as a great compliment and went on to say; I didn't ever want to become 'more thai'. I didn't ever want to start accepting the "thai way" (which to me is dumbing yourself down as far as expectations & accepting less).

I treat the people I interact with how I want to be treated. I am polite, but I do make people help me. I mention to people if I am ahead of them in line, I refuse to allow the clerks to ignore me in favor of a thai, and I don’t have any qualms about calling them on it, oft times to their consternation. Does that make me a bad person? (the real question is; do I care?) Am I perceived as polite in a 'thai way' sense of things? No, of course not, but I’d bite my veins out rather than accept their 'thai way'. I don't advocate this for everyone, but is MY way & worked for me for going on three years. If it makes me a person who refuses to buy into 'thai-ness' so be it.

I am American, I am proud to be from the USA & I refuse to ever lower my standards merely to 'co-exist' peacefully with the munchkins. I live here by choice not chance.

The glorious "Land 'O Thais" is a wacky place, a strange place, but ultimately a very interesting & wonderful place. If you don't dwell on the mysteries of “all things thai” or ever for one second buy into the 'thai way' and if you learn some proficiency in munchkin-ese, then for the most part ignore the munchkins as much as possible; you'll be a lot better off, in fact you’ll be just fine.

*Please note; the views expressed are by the author, and no warranties are expressed or implied, your mileage may vary.

[jasreeve17]

Tod Daniels, what an interesting post.

You are, of course, about to be attacked by many. Not least because of the "muchkins" term, which is derogatory, as I'm sure you know.

For me, I found it well written with many points that I'd agree with.

[mrt273nva]

Tod Daniels, what an interesting post.

You are, of course, about to be attacked by many. Not least because of the "muchkins" term, which is derogatory, as I'm sure you know.

For me, I found it well written with many points that I'd agree with.

no one can attack it. i love it.

sorry to keep this thread alive but i am quite intrested in it.

[dumspero]

Tod-Daniels-

I recognize that you're baiting people with the 'munchkins' reference to have fun. And while I hate political correctness as I suspect you do, neither fun nor anti-political correctness justifies putting down an entire nation of people with name calling.

Good for you you've learned the language and are proud to be an American (the latter being another bait that will prove successful, I'm sure), but your ideas are cluelessly elitist. Why let uneducated Americans vote? Aren't they 'munchkins' too?

Anyway, will have fun reading the responses to your post.

[philliphn]

I know that what happened at the CD store is more complex than the small part of the picture that I might be able to offer some insight into. But here is my 10 Bahts worth.

I think that many Thai people most of whome are not financially even close to "middel class" see alot of "Farangs," all of these "Farangs" are seen as having alot more money than they have. Even a young person from the U.S.A who works at McDonalds, and saved for a vacation would likely have more cash to throw around. I think many Thai people become resentful of this. I live in the U.S.A. I think that essentialy the same thing would happen in the U.S.A, if we had the same economic dynamics at work, and these rich very different looking obviously foreignors with their money coming here. Yes, it is not that simple. Social cultural factors also importantly come into play. However, it is unlikely that a clerk at a store in the U.S.A would behave in the way this individual Thai man did. In the U.S.A his employment would be terminated, unless he was the owner of the store, but jf he was then economic self interest would likely prevent such behavior. A friend of mine who I have a great deal of respect for, who is an expat living in Bangkok, once told me after an experience where I was subjected to some very rude and some what threatening behavior that, " we have their women and we have the money." I know this is a bit of a general statement, but you get the point.

[philliphn]

Now I feel obliged to relate the incident of which I speak.

It was my first vacation in Thailand. I was on the Sky Train with a friend of mine. Just incidentaly my friend is an American whose mother is Vietnamese and father is American. I was wearing a very nice yellow silk shirt that I had bought from a Bangkok Tailor (shame on me) and Blue Jeans. We were both standing near one of the doors. Standing next to the opposite door was a young Thai male. He looked directly at me and started kicking the door next to him repeatedly hard. I watched him from the corner of my eye. I have very good peripheral vision. Fortunately, I was in very good physical shape at that time, so that helped me not to feel that intimidated (perhaps this was a false sense of security). I could add a few other relevant details about my good conditioning at that time, but I don't want to be accused of being a Ninja, because I am not, and I am not on a macho trip. ( I am the Ninja Social Worker, joke). Every one on the Sky Train had to have noticed this unacceptable public behavior. As usual on the Sky Train every one was quiet and typicaly aviodant. Then to my surprise a young Thai male of strong stocky build came behind the kicker. He pinned this mans arms to his side whispered something that I could not hear in his ear. When the Sky Train stopped he escorted the man off the Sky train. I think that he was a ununiformed officer. At that time my other expat friend would debrief me about my experiences of the day to help orient me. That is when he said to me that "we have the money and we have thier women". This was his possible explanation of my encounter. My companion on the Sky Train that day said tht he had ridden the Sky Train many times and had never seen such behavior. He thought that the man might have been on Yaba. It will be many years if ever before I forget that Sky Train trip. However, since then I have ridden the Sky Train many times and have always had a pleasant journey. Somtimes people give curious looks, but then so do I.

[ThaiGoon]

Here's the only thing I can say:

[lannarebirth]

In America, people still do get discrimiated against because of the color of their skins every day. Is that logical? I think not. Do I think all white Americans are like that? No I don't. When I got treated differently by some police officers here( in America) just because I'm Asian, I just thought they were just probably different from the rest of the American police force. The thought of, wow this country sure was a racist country, never came across my mind. But it's weird that on here you can see it on a regular basis that when someone has a bad experience with some Thai people, and they would just come here and ask why all Thai people acted like that. And they think that's logical.

With age comes a better understanding of irony. You noiw reside and attend school in the least racist society on earth. I'm not saying it doesn't exist there, I'm saying it exists to a lesser degree than anywhere else you could be. You say you're a post graduate student in America? You haven't noticed that well over 50% of your felow post grads are asian? In a non asian country? That may be racist, but if it is, you are the beneficiary of that racism. You should strive for objectivity and people would then take what you have to say seriously.

[ThaiGoon]

Nice Lanna. You preached to me about "objectivity", and yet you were the one who came up with this gem: America is "the least racist society on earth." And now we have to take what you say seriously?

I guess when you preach about "objectivity", it's the same as when Bush and Cheney preach about honesty, honor and integrity.

"With age comes a better understanding of irony." You must be considerably younger than me then.

Edited April 6, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[ThaiGoon]

I also probably didn't have the stomach to boast that my country is the least racist country on earth when as recently as the 60's racial segregation still existed...not to mention the fact that even nowadays there's still some certain parts of the country where black folks won't dare wander around (like somewhere in Texas).

Anyway Lanna I'm really impressed with your "objectivity." I sure wanna learn more about "objectivity" from you.

Edited April 6, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[lannarebirth]

Nice Lanna. You preached to me about "objectivity", and yet you were the one who came up with this gem: America is "the least racist society on earth." And now we have to take what you say seriously?

I guess when you preach about "objectivity", it's the same as when Bush and Cheney preach about honesty, honor and integrity.

I'm interested to know where you've travelled in your young life. My experience is based on either visiting, working, or living in 57 countries. You may have seen more than me and are in a better position to judge, but I doubt it.

[ThaiGoon]

I'm interested to know where you've travelled in your young life. My experience is based on either visiting, working, or living in 57 countries. You may have seen more than me and are in a better position to judge, but I doubt it.

Yeah, I'm sure you were in those 57 countries long enough to make that "objective" statement of yours. Let's say you need to be at some place at least a couple of years to really know what's going on there. Judging by your claim, I'd guess that you are probably about 150 years old now?

[Dakhar]

I don't know, but I think it is the width that bothers them the most. But I could be wrong.

Like the fella said, we have the money, and their women.... ofcourse they will be angry with falangs.

Even if they really knew, that the money we have was a struggle to obtain, that falangs just don't lay in a hammok all day trying to decide to swat at the fly or just mai pen rai the thing and some how get paid well for this life style in our home lands.

It matters not to them how it was obtained, it just matters that it is there.....

Thai logic, whew... how long is a piece of string?

[philliphn]

I am a U.S.A citizen. I know very well that their is racism in U.S.A. However, it seems to me that you are benefiting significantly Thai Goon from your association with this racist American country. If you find the U.S.A so objectionable, I invite you to return to Thailand, which is where I would rather be myself. Their must be something of great value as compared to Thailand for you to remain in a country that you so much disdain.

Let us examine the notion of racism further. It seems to me that Thailand is also a very racist country. You know very well how darker skined Thais are treated. This is Thai racism. Also, in Thailand to my sorrow their seems to ba alot of racism against foreighners. In the U.S.A you can buy your own home and actually own it. It does not matter if your are Thai or Eskimo. I will buy a Condo. Thais think that they are better than others simply because they are Thais. I won't deny the truth that many Americans have the same attitude towards non Americas/U.S.A. In Thailand we all know that when it comes to justice foreigner are treated differently than Thais. This is a form of prejudice and injustice. If I get stopped by my local Police Officer, I would not dream of offering a bribe, or expect that simply because I come from an accomplished family that I won't face the same consequences as any law breaker. Though I must admit I perfer to bribe the Thai Police Officer. I try to have a more even handed approach. Do I succeed perhaps not. Do you try? I don't think so!

Edited April 6, 2007 by philliphn

[ThaiGoon]

I don't know, but I think it is the width that bothers them the most. But I could be wrong.

Like the fella said, we have the money, and their women.... ofcourse they will be angry with falangs.

Even if they really knew, that the money we have was a struggle to obtain, that falangs just don't lay in a hammok all day trying to decide to swat at the fly or just mai pen rai the thing and some how get paid well for this life style in our home lands.

It matters not to them how it was obtained, it just matters that it is there.....

Thai logic, whew... how long is a piece of string?

I really don't wanna burst your bubble and say this....(as it's quite disrespectful to some Thai women.) But majority of Thai women you guys have aren't exactly what I could call real keepers. So I don't think we are that angry to see you with them. Honestly.