UK plans to introduce border controls on EU goods after post-Brexit transition

[samran]

4 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Actually you've got that wrong.  Sajid Javid campaigned for and voted to remain in the EU. 

Fair enough. I knew he wasn’t keen on the EU, but didn’t know he voted remain. 

[CG1 Blue]

9 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Ending free movement. This is the important part for you isn't it. Tell me. Are you going to go out and pick crops and fruit for less than the minimum wage?

You think companies taking advantage of foreigners by paying less than the minimum wage is a good thing then? 

[samran]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

You think companies taking advantage of foreigners by paying less than the minimum wage is a good thing then? 

Shouldn’t the question be why are the government letting companies get away with paying less than the minimum wage? Blaming the victims is kind of pointless. 

[sanemax]

4 minutes ago, samran said:

Shouldn’t the question be why are the government letting companies get away with paying less than the minimum wage? Blaming the victims is kind of pointless. 

Which companies are doing that ?

[CG1 Blue]

4 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Well Tony Blair had a big majority, but he was fighting a sitting PM with experience  - John Major - so it was an achievement.

It is a well established historical fact (Like it or not) that the further to the left the Labour Party goes the bigger the Tory majority. Furthermore, in this particular case Boris was fighting the most unpopular party leader in the past 80 years (From all the polls I have read). Vast numbers of voters told Labour canvassers that Corbyn was the reason that they couldn't vote Labour (Like it or not). Boris hadn't got the stones to face Andrew Neil, but Cummings knew that the less of Boris everyone saw, the better the result for the Party would be. 

 

That is why nobody who follows politics - in the UK or Europe is impressed by his majority. In normal circumstances people don't generally vote for lying fat boy toffscum buffoons.

 

It never ceases to amaze me just how thick Boris is. Plenty of grandiose ideas, plenty of grandstanding, but (As his staff said in the Council and the FO) no grasp of detail. 

 

 

You're right that Corbyn was the reason why so many Labour voters could not vote for Labour in the GE. But those die-hard socialists usually would gouge their own eyes out before voting Conservative. But they voted for Boris. 

 

You might say nobody in Europe is impressed by the Tory majority. But cast your mind back just a few months, and think about how the outside world saw the UK Parliament. Remain Tory MPs continually blocking government bills, lawyers taking the government to court, the Speaker making up rules to scupper any progress on Brexit, the place was a laughing stock! 

Compare that to what we have now - a functioning government getting things done. 

[englishoak]

23 minutes ago, samran said:

Shouldn’t the question be why are the government letting companies get away with paying less than the minimum wage? Blaming the victims is kind of pointless. 

Lets be totally honest for a moment, people want cheap stuff, especially food which is essential. Im not an advocate of a minimum wage myself, let the market and demand decide. someone will always be willing to do the job cheaper than the last... Farmers in the UK are often slaves to the likes of Tescos who take 90% of the profits, like the rice mills in Thailand do ... the blame imo isnt with either the farmer paying low wages or the worker willing to do the job for less but mostly the middle behemoths that screw both. The profits and demand for ever increasing ones is imo the biggest problem to all.... 

 

Of course in the bigger picture, theres pensions, shares, markets and economies,we all depend on Tescos etc to make good and more for us... its a vicious circle and all are partly to blame, we are far too used to having anything we want at a low cost and sensitive to prices which in turn feeds back... 

 

Either you accept there will always be winners and losers and life cannot be fair or you dont, if your forever trying to square that circle it will just all come crashing down in a communist state type nightmare.  Somewhere in between is possible maybe for a while but doubt for long, maybe capping all public traded and big business to a max % profit with the rest plowed back into the workers etc might work for a period, but being human and naturally self serving it would quickly descend into a communist nightmare once stared down that road i think.... 

 

I just accept there are those better off than others and life isnt fair so got busy selfishly making my lot and families better. its all any one person can really do i think. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by englishoak

[samran]

18 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Which companies are doing that ?

 

26 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

You think companies taking advantage of foreigners by paying less than the minimum wage is a good thing then? 

The ones CG1 are talking about...

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

So will you all stop pretending its someone elses fault. Man up and take responsibility for your actions and most of all, just get on with it.

I think you're misreading the mood here Rookie. We (on the Brexit side) don't need to blame anyone, because we're ecstatic about leaving the EU! And we're looking forward to taking responsibility for our actions! 

[samran]

6 minutes ago, englishoak said:

Lets be totally honest for a moment, people want cheap stuff, especially food which is essential. Im not an advocate of a minimum wage myself, let the market and demand decide. someone will always be willing to do the job cheaper than the last... Farmers in the UK are often slaves to the likes of Tescos who take 90% of the profits, like the rice mills in Thailand do ... the blame imo isnt with either the farmer paying low wages or the worker willing to do the job for less but mostly the middle behemoths that screw both. The profits and demand for ever increasing ones is imo the biggest problem to all.... 

 

Of course in the bigger picture, theres pensions, shares, markets and economies,we all depend on Tescos etc to make good and more for us... its a vicious circle and all are partly to blame, we are far too used to having anything we want at a low cost and sensitive to prices which in turn feeds back... 

 

Either you accept there will always be winners and losers and life cannot be fair or you dont, if your forever trying to square that circle it will just all come crashing down in a communist state type nightmare.  Somewhere in between is possible maybe for a while but doubt for long, maybe capping all public traded and big business to a max % profit with the rest plowed back into the workers etc might work for a period, but being human and what we are naturally which is self serving it would only descend into a communist nightmare once stared down that road i think.... 

 

I just accept there are those better off than others and life isnt fair so got busy selfishly making my lot and families better. its all any one person can really do i think. 

You bring up some really good points and the dilemma of capitalism.

 

Markets work (mostly) and to paraphrase Adam Smith, they do so off the base of our own selfishness. For me that is fine and it works for me - I run my own business and earn what I earn- and so do plenty others. 
 

But history has shown us that exploitation is rife with lower skilled workers, even though their productivity is not fairly reflected in the compensation they get. How to do that is the challenge. Minimum wage? Collective bargaining based on the productivity share from labour? People debate for years over this stuff. 

[CG1 Blue]

35 minutes ago, samran said:

Shouldn’t the question be why are the government letting companies get away with paying less than the minimum wage? Blaming the victims is kind of pointless. 

I think bosses get away with this practice because the workers are foreign, and happy to keep it 'under he radar'. Because they can shack up with 12 of their mates in a 2 bed house, and still net twice as much as they would for working back home. 

[samran]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

I think bosses get away with this practice because the workers are foreign, and happy to keep it 'under he radar'. Because they can shack up with 12 of their mates in a 2 bed house, and still net twice as much as they would for working back home. 

Foreign workers are less willing to stick up for their rights, particularly if their visa status is temporary. I dare say you’ll see more rather than less of this post brexit as your visa system morphs into something different where more of your work force are going to be ‘temporary’ by definition. 

 

It certainly happens a lot in Australia - a lot of students and working holiday makers are exploited in particular in agriculture or in retail. We are currently seeing a wave of prosecutions in hospitality as well. It isn’t something to be proud of. 

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, englishoak said:

Lets be totally honest for a moment, people want cheap stuff, especially food which is essential. Im not an advocate of a minimum wage myself, let the market and demand decide. someone will always be willing to do the job cheaper than the last... Farmers in the UK are often slaves to the likes of Tescos who take 90% of the profits, like the rice mills in Thailand do ... the blame imo isnt with either the farmer paying low wages or the worker willing to do the job for less but mostly the middle behemoths that screw both. The profits and demand for ever increasing ones is imo the biggest problem to all.... 

 

Of course in the bigger picture, theres pensions, shares, markets and economies,we all depend on Tescos etc to make good and more for us... its a vicious circle and all are partly to blame, we are far too used to having anything we want at a low cost and sensitive to prices which in turn feeds back... 

 

Either you accept there will always be winners and losers and life cannot be fair or you dont, if your forever trying to square that circle it will just all come crashing down in a communist state type nightmare.  Somewhere in between is possible maybe for a while but doubt for long, maybe capping all public traded and big business to a max % profit with the rest plowed back into the workers etc might work for a period, but being human and naturally self serving it would quickly descend into a communist nightmare once stared down that road i think.... 

 

I just accept there are those better off than others and life isnt fair so got busy selfishly making my lot and families better. its all any one person can really do i think. 

I tend to go along with much of what you are saying, although I believe that the minimum wage is a very necessary thing (dare I point out that none of the doom and gloom predicted by business owners before it was introduced came to pass?). 

 

But I don't believe that when Smith talked of an ideal free market he was suggesting that this would involve the huge imbalance we see in terms of power amongst the economic actors. The unions brought about their own downfall, but little in the way of protection has been put in place for workers. In fact, we are seeing workers' rights continue to be under attack. Minimum wages are one of the few things that enforce a degree of protection, but even these are so low so as to still pass the burden of supporting these workers onto the taxpayer at large. 

 

[CG1 Blue]

18 minutes ago, samran said:

 

The ones CG1 are talking about...

Rookie mentioned it first, so I assumed it must be true ????

I'm pretty sure some unscrupulous bosses are getting away with it, but our minimum wage laws do protect most workers. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

No but now you actually need to deliver on all those promises made.

It was easy parroting slogans. Now the real work begins.

Remind us all of these (parroted) "slogans" and promises - just the ones that the present government gave and may have responsibility for honouring. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by nauseus

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

No need; Article 50 is available to all 27 ???????? members who are free to follow ????????'s lead whenever their Govts/Electorate choose.

And Scotland as a sovereign nation can walk out of the union any time it wants.

Nothing Brexiteers can do about it.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

You think companies taking advantage of foreigners by paying less than the minimum wage is a good thing then? 

I never said that.

But we all know it goes on.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Remind us all of these (parroted) "slogans" and promises - just the ones that the present government gave and may have responsibility for honouring. 

Oven ready deal ????

But you Brexiteers have not limited yourselves to just slogans used by Johnson have you?

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

No need; Article 50 is available to all 27 ???????? members who are free to follow ????????'s lead whenever their Govts/Electorate choose.

Whats that got to do with anything?

Good grief the hypocrisy of Brexiteers gets worse by the day. 

[englishoak]

15 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

And Scotland as a sovereign nation can walk out of the union any time it wants.

Nothing Brexiteers can do about it.

 

I dont want to do anything about it, good riddance and good luck would be my parting words... but and its a huge but. Scotland already blew that chance and now want another one and imo it wont be given it under any strong UK gov and make no mistake there is one now

 

There is no leaving unless its legal and consented to by the Union. the same as it was for the UK to leave the EU, there are rules to play by and Scotland cant do diddly squat about leaving without permission to ask the people by Westminster or by the courts via section 30, the latter risks rule by the former for at least another generation. 

 

As usual lad your talking out your backside and using your broken oracle again. 

 

Your talking to your own bubble mate, stop wasting peoples time making up claims that are just plain false. Scotland is going to be Englands bitch and mouth we must feed for a long tome to come yet... I dont like it either but thats the reality 

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, englishoak said:

 

I dont want to do anything about it, good riddance and good luck would be my parting words... but and its a huge but. Scotland already blew that chance and now want another one and imo it wont be given it under any strong UK gov and make no mistake there is one now

 

There is no leaving unless its legal and consented to by the Union. the same as it was for the UK to leave the EU, there are rules to play by and Scotland cant do diddly squat about leaving without permission to ask the people by Westminster or by the courts via section 30, the latter risks rule by the former for at least another generation. 

 

As usual lad your talking out your backside and using your broken oracle again. 

 

Your talking to your own bubble mate, stop wasting peoples time making up claims that are just plain false. Scotland is going to be Englands bitch and mouth we must feed for a long tome to come yet... I dont like it either but thats the reality 

The treaty of union has been broken therefor is null and void.

Holyrood could pass a law on Monday leaving the union and there is nothing Westminster could do about it.

[CG1 Blue]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The treaty of union has been broken therefor is null and void.

Holyrood could pass a law on Monday leaving the union and there is nothing Westminster could do about it.

If that were true surely Sturgeon would have done it a long time ago? 

[englishoak]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

I tend to go along with much of what you are saying, although I believe that the minimum wage is a very necessary thing (dare I point out that none of the doom and gloom predicted by business owners before it was introduced came to pass?). 

 

But I don't believe that when Smith talked of an ideal free market he was suggesting that this would involve the huge imbalance we see in terms of power amongst the economic actors. The unions brought about their own downfall, but little in the way of protection has been put in place for workers. In fact, we are seeing workers' rights continue to be under attack. Minimum wages are one of the few things that enforce a degree of protection, but even these are so low so as to still pass the burden of supporting these workers onto the taxpayer at large. 

 

Heres the problem I see with an enforced minimum wage, it never stays that way, now we are seeing the living wage being pushed and as likely will become the new minimum wage.. then it will be a guaranteed basic income, who knows what next, probably entitled or lawfully enforced company profit shares or something.  I know people are NEVER satisfied and human nature is to want more more MORE.. it is our burden and paradox perhaps

 

The unions are a perfect example of human greed, ive no faith in peoples ability to be fair but not greedy, one mans contentment is another mans resentment... never said capitalism dosnt need a reset from time to time though... I think we missed that chance in 08 when half the world should have crashed and shaken out the corrupt and bad business but they bailed themselves out and will again no doubt... possibly the only reset now likely will be  some black swan event and a total breakdown n our civilization.. I do know capitalism is the best of a bad lot, proven and tried over time, only now the resets have been corrupted so all bets are off.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

If that were true surely Sturgeon would have done it a long time ago? 

She, for some reason many of us cannot fathom, wants to go the section 30 route. It would certainly make for a cleaner and easier break.

But Johnson is never going to grant it.

[englishoak]

8 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The treaty of union has been broken therefor is null and void.

Holyrood could pass a law on Monday leaving the union and there is nothing Westminster could do about it.

 

you forget ive probably more interest in it happening than you have and also asked ( Scottish ) lawyer friends, none agree with you lad You can pretend to yourself all you want but your just plain wrong... sorry but your oracle is as usual broken. 

[Rookiescot]

Just now, englishoak said:

 

you forget ive probably more interest in it happening than you have and also asked ( Scottish ) lawyer friends, none agree with you lad You can pretend to yourself all you want but your just plain wrong... sorry but your oracle is as usual broken. 

Oh you asked your lawyer friends did you?

Have any of your unionist lawyer friends actually read the treaty of union?

I will wager that they have not and if they even exist will have been telling you stuff you just want to hear.

[Jare]

20 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Could you make an effort to move out of the teenage private schoolboy ya boo sucks mentality, It gets tedious having to read comments on this level.

 

So you lot can give it, but you can't take it.

You know, people on the pro-brexit side put forward normal posts and face a barrage of purile replies that are allowed, whilst ones on the opposite side are not. As soon as someone does the same back, you don't like it, and start crying foul... well you can't control comedy, even if the remain side is a joke.

 

20 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Get real, It is individuals not countries who put their money into offshore accounts. These rich individuals (Like David Cameron's dad for one) are much loved by the Tories who would defend their right to deprive the Treasury of billions of pounds in tax revenues, to the last.

What exactly is your point? You sound like you're mimicking me when I corrected the EU this and EU that posts, by pointing out it was individual countries, and companies within them that traded, not the EU.

20 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Are you really naive enough to imagine, that the tax avoiding owners of the Tory gutter press put their vile organs into overdrive, to promote Brexit, because they personally cared about Sovereignty, Immigrants, or Fishing quotas? People that rich are not that stupid.

So now you reveal your bias... with words like "gutter" and "vile" and "stupid", those words apply to the likes of the Remain establishment, the BBC, the Guardian, and other economically illiterate losers, who despite having every propaganda advantage, and attempting unbelievable lies and manipulations, trying to undermined democracy and campaign against the result of the largest democratic vote in history, and support foreign millionaires misusing the courts to undermined the British polticial system, they still lost.

20 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

The fundamental purpose of Brexit is to protect mega rich tax avoiders, the rest for them is just window dressing. 

No, the fundamental purpose of the EU is to protect mega rich tax avoiders, and failed politicians like millionaire socialists who used to preside over the Labour party, the party of the workers... that's why the workers rejected the EU and the Labour party, and you are still in denial of the reality that is around you.

[Jare]

16 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

genious.

I'm sure you mispelt that on purpose.

[Jare]

13 hours ago, samran said:

Ah, the rewriting of history continues. This is 1984-esque.

1984 is the left-wing playbook, sadly so few of them have ever read it, understood it, or both.

You do understand that 1984 was a critique of the statist left, don't you?

The same statist left that believes religiously in the EU.

[englishoak]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Oh you asked your lawyer friends did you?

Have any of your unionist lawyer friends actually read the treaty of union?

I will wager that they have not and if they even exist will have been telling you stuff you just want to hear.

You just dont pay attention do you ?   one more time for the hard of learning then......

 

Im NOT a Unionist, im an English patriot and separatist but also a realist.

 

Yes the lawyers exist and they are true blue Scots independent Patriots like Ruamrudy here.  We have much in common, have great debates and game play likely outcomes over political and other matters. If your a plastic jock just wanting to remain in the EU then it would explain your disbelief that true patriots have far more in common than plastic ones.  

 

Stay mad lad... 

[Jare]

8 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

England does not have a monopoly over people being stupid.

So you believe Scotland has an advantage in that regard?