Novel Coronavirus 2019 (Covid-19) - What you really need to know.

[Seaspray]

Some interesting findings from a recent Chinese study of 1099 confirmed cases from 31 provinces:

 

Quote

This study has shown that fever occurred in only 43.8% of patients with 2019-nCoV ARD on presentation but developed in 87.9% following hospitalization. Severe pneumonia occurred in 15.7% of cases. No radiologic abnormality was noted on initial presentation in 23.9% and 5.2% of severe and non-severe cases respectively while diarrhea was uncommon. The median incubation period of 2019-nCoV ARD was 3.0 days and it had a relatively lower fatality rate than SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV. Disease severity independently predicted the composite endpoint.

Quote

Notably, fever occurred in only 43.8% of patients on initial presentation and developed in 87.9% following hospitalization. Absence of fever in 2019-nCoV ARD is more frequent than in SARS-CoV (1%) and MERS-CoV infection (2%) [19] and such patients may be missed if the surveillance case definition focused heavily on fever detection [14]. Consistent with two recent reports [1,12], lymphopenia was common and, in some cases, severe. However, based on a larger sample size and cases recruited throughout China, we found a markedly lower case fatality rate (1.4%) as compared with that reportedly recently [1,12]. The fatality rate was lower (0.88%) when incorporating additional pilot data from Guangdong province (N=603) where effective prevention has been undertaken (unpublished data). Our findings were consistent with the national official statistics, reporting the mortality of 2.01% in China out of 28,018 cases as of February 6th, 2020

[my emphasis]

 

Also...

 

Quote

The median age was 47.0 years (IQR, 35.0 to 58.0), and 41.9% were females. 2019-nCoV ARD was diagnosed throughout the whole spectrum of age. 0.9% of patients were aged below 15 years. Fever (87.9%) and cough (67.7%) were the most common symptoms, whereas diarrhea (3.7%) and vomiting (5.0%) were rare. 25.2% of patients had at least one underlying disorder (i.e., hypertension, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease). On admission, 926 and 173 patients were categorized into non-severe and severe subgroups, respectively. The age differed significantly between the two groups (mean difference, 7.0, 95%CI, 4.4 to 9.6). Moreover, any underlying disorder was significantly more common in severe cases as compared with non-severe cases (38.2% vs. 22.5%, P<0.001).

 

Clinical characteristics of 2019 novel coronavirus infection in China

 

[scubascuba3]

10 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I know you addressed this to Sheryl but I can make a suggestion if one were really concerned about serious symptoms. 

 

In Chiang Mai (where I live), the best hospital to deal with a serious viral infection would probably be Nakornping Hospital because it is a ‘designated receiving area’ for people with infectious diseases.

 

So, my advice would be to google that term for such a hospital in Pattaya, though I'm guessing you would probably have to travel to Bangkok to find such a hospital.   

 

If less serious symptoms, my bet in Pattaya would be the Bangkok Hospital which is first rate, and if warranted, they would transfer the patient to an appropriate facility.

 

Nothing comes up but if in Pattaya the nearest govt hospital is Pattaya City Hospital, a better and bigger govt hospital further out in Naklua is Bang Lamung Hospital, i would go there

[WaveHunter]

5 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Nothing comes up but if in Pattaya the nearest govt hospital is Pattaya City Hospital, a better and bigger govt hospital further out in Naklua is Bang Lamung Hospital, i would go there

I only mentioned Bangkok Hospital Pattaya because I live nearby to Pattaya (in Pratumnak) part of the year and have been to that hospital.  Even though my issues were minor, I was impressed by how well the hospital is administered and how good the doctors were that I encountered in terms of diagnostic skills as well as compassionate one-to-one interaction with their patients.  Also, IMO it is a just a very Expat-friendly atmosphere.

 

Furthermore, it is the main referral hospital for the Eastern Seaboard of Thailand, has an international reputation for excellence, and maintains world-accreditation by the Joint Commission International (JCI).

 

Finally, they have taken a pretty vocal and proactive stance on Covid-19.  See the article in Pattaya Mail.

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by WaveHunter

[scubascuba3]

11 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I only mentioned Bangkok Hospital Pattaya because I live nearby to Pattaya (in Pratumnak) part of the year and have been to that hospital.  Even though my issues were minor, I was impressed by how well the hospital is administered and how good the doctors were that I encountered in terms of diagnostic skills as well as compassionate one-to-one interaction with their patients.  Also, IMO it is a just a very Expat-friendly atmosphere.

 

Furthermore, it is the main referral hospital for the Eastern Seaboard of Thailand, has an international reputation for excellence, and maintains world-accreditation by the Joint Commission International (JCI).

 

Finally, they have taken a pretty vocal and proactive stance on Covid-19.  See the article in Pattaya Mail.

 

I don't like Bangkok Pattaya hospital, bill padding and a bad doctor i saw plus the most expensive hospital, I'd rather take my chances at one of the others

[Sheryl]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

I only mentioned Bangkok Hospital Pattaya because I live nearby to Pattaya (in Pratumnak) part of the year and have been to that hospital.  Even though my issues were minor, I was impressed by how well the hospital is administered and how good the doctors were that I encountered in terms of diagnostic skills as well as compassionate one-to-one interaction with their patients.  Also, IMO it is a just a very Expat-friendly atmosphere.

 

Furthermore, it is the main referral hospital for the Eastern Seaboard of Thailand, has an international reputation for excellence, and maintains world-accreditation by the Joint Commission International (JCI).

 

Finally, they have taken a pretty vocal and proactive stance on Covid-19.  See the article in Pattaya Mail.

 

 

It is not "the main referral hospital". Referral hospitals exist only in the context of a broader health system. The Thai government health system is one such and has a clear referral network. Bangkok Pattaya is not part of it nor is any other private hospital.

 

The main government hospital in Chonburi town is a regional hospital to which other government hospitals in adjacent provinces refer.

 

BPH is geared towards expats, that is true. And government hospitals most certainly are not, to put it mildly, and can be difficult to use especially if one does not speak Thai.

[WaveHunter]

8 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

It is not "the main referral hospital". Referral hospitals exist only in the context of a broader health system. The Thai government health system is one such and has a clear referral network. Bangkok Pattaya is not part of it nor is any other private hospital.

 

It is certainly geared towards expats, that is true.

 

The main government hospital in Chonburi town is a regional hospital to which other government hospitals in adjacent provinces refer.

While that may be true for Thai Nationals, BHP is the main referral hospital for international patients, and is probably the best equipped hospital in the region, outside of Bangkok.  Personally, if I had a true emergency and was concerned about getting the best treatment possible in a public health emergency situation, with the least possibility of cross-infection, I would be wary of a government hospital.  That's just me, of course.

Edited February 15, 2020 by WaveHunter

[Sheryl]

A post linking to a non-scientific source spouting conspiracy theory nonsense has been removed along with replies to it. If this thread continues to veer into such nonsense and the posting of unreliable, nonscientific links it will be closed.

 

The scientific evidence is clear that this virus is one of many that naturally occur in bats and that it crossed over into the human population via an intermediate cost, possibly pangolins (who were kept live in cages in the Wuhan market and slaughtered on the spot).

 

Slaughtering/eating animals caught in the wild is an excellent way to introduce viruses from wild species into human populations and is what  thought to be led to SARs, MERS, Ebola, Marburg and HIV among many others. And whenever a virus jumps species there will be trouble for the new species encountering it.

 

It does not need  bioterrorism or evil conspiracies to introduce zoonotic pathogens into the human population. Ordinary humans are doing it.

[Sheryl]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

While that may be true for Thai Nationals, BHP is the main referral hospital for international patients, and is probably the best equipped hospital in the region, outside of Bangkok.  Personally, if I had a true emergency and was concerned about getting the best treatment possible in a public health emergency situation, with the least possibility of cross-infection, I would be wary of a government hospital.  That's just me, of course.

 

Again, no, it is not. There is no organized health system in Thailand other than the government one. The government system does not refer to BPH, and the various private hospitals refer within their own individual chains.

 

Samitivej Sri Racha will not refer to Bangkok Pattaya., If they need to refer, they will do so to one of the Samitivej Bangkok hospitals. Djtto Phyathai. Etc.

 

 

[NCC1701A]

On 2/14/2020 at 8:50 AM, WaveHunter said:

 clever one-liners,

well that counts me out.

[WaveHunter]

3 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Again, no, it is not. There is no organized health system in Thailand other than the government one. The government system does not refer to BPH, and the various private hospitals refer within their own individual chains.

 

Samitivej Sri Racha will not refer to Bangkok Pattaya., If they need to refer, they will do so to one of the Samitivej Bangkok hospitals. Djtto Phyathai. Etc.

 

 

Perhaps I am using the term "main referral hospital" incorrectly.  Maybe what I should have said is that BHP is the most "popular" referral hospital when the patient is an expat.  Both times I was referred, the GP made that referral, and other expats I know who have been referred it was the same thing.

 

Irregardless, I would prefer BHP for the other (more important) reasons i explained, and if BHP is not indeed tha main referral hospital it is certainly one of the primary ones, at least as far as expats are concerned...IMHO.

[WaveHunter]

28 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Again, no, it is not. There is no organized health system in Thailand other than the government one. The government system does not refer to BPH, and the various private hospitals refer within their own individual chains.

 

Samitivej Sri Racha will not refer to Bangkok Pattaya., If they need to refer, they will do so to one of the Samitivej Bangkok hospitals. Djtto Phyathai. Etc.

 

 

OK, how is this:  Bangkok Hospital Pattaya, is the largest tertiary referral hospital on the Eastern Seaboard of Thailand, and is the only hospital in Pattaya accredited by the American Joint Commission International.?

 

Will you agree with that statement?

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by WaveHunter

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

OK, how is this:  Bangkok Hospital Pattaya, is the largest tertiary referral hospital on the Eastern Seaboard of Thailand, and is the only hospital in Pattaya accredited by the American Joint Commission International.?

 

Will you agree with that statement?

 

No.  It is not tertiary nor is it  a referral hospital.

 

You appear not to know what these terms mean. They refer to facilities that exist within a formal health system whereby there are facilities at different levels which refer upward according to a specific, official referral pathway. A tertiary level referral hospital would be one that secondary level hospitals refer to, with the secondary levels in turn  receiving referrals from primary care facilities like health centers of community hospitals.

 

Nothing like this exists in private medical care in Thailand.

 

There are 3   tertiary  referral hospitals on the Eastern Seaboard: Chonburi, Rayong and Chantaburi Regional Hospitals.

 

 

[Sheryl]

P.S. BPH is JCI accredited.  So is Samitivej Sri Racha

[BritManToo]

On 2/14/2020 at 11:40 AM, WaveHunter said:

I think it's pretty accepted that anything that decreases your general immunity response such as age, pre-existing health conditions, etc puts  you a greater risk of getting serious complications from Covid-19, as would be the case of any virus. 

Spanish Flu killed the healthy and strong, leaving children and old folks to live.

There appears to be no information on who is susceptible to this disease beyond the one research paper suggesting Asian males in their 30s were most at risk.

 

So no, it's not accepted at all that those with decreased immunity are at greater risk.

"Most influenza outbreaks disproportionately kill the very young and the very old, with a higher survival rate for those in-between. However, the Spanish flu pandemic resulted in a higher than expected mortality rate for young adults."

Edited February 15, 2020 by BritManToo

[WaveHunter]

56 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Spanish Flu killed the healthy and strong, leaving children and old folks to live.

There appears to be no information on who is susceptible to this disease beyond the one research paper suggesting Asian males in their 30s were most at risk.

 

So no, it's not accepted at all that those with decreased immunity are at greater risk.

"Most influenza outbreaks disproportionately kill the very young and the very old, with a higher survival rate for those in-between. However, the Spanish flu pandemic resulted in a higher than expected mortality rate for young adults."

Not to get into a meaningless argument, but if one's immunity response is lessened for any reason, that puts one at greater risk of any sort of viral infection. 

 

Immunity response can be lessened by a variety of factors including advanced age, poor general health, poor lifestyle decisions such as smoking, even lack of sufficient sleep (as I wrote about in a previous posts, and provided links to strong scientific evidence that supports this notion).

 

Of course it is true that anyone (even the young, strong and healthy) can be done in by a viral infection, but impairment of the immune response vastly increases the odds of becoming infected, and those studies I referred to actually quantified it under well controlled, clinical conditions.  I really don't see how anyone can argue with this.

Edited February 15, 2020 by WaveHunter

[BritManToo]

5 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Of course it is true that anyone can catch a viral bug, irregardless of whether or not their immune system is impaired or not, but impairment vastly increases the odds of becoming infected.  I really don't see how anyone can argue with this.

You wanted a scientific discussion, but don't appear to understand the science.

Spanish Flu killed the young and strong, children and the elderly survived.

That is not an argument, that is fact.

Edited February 15, 2020 by BritManToo

[WaveHunter]

Just now, BritManToo said:

You wanted a scientific discussion, but don't appear to understand the science.

What is it I don't understand; or more appropriately, what is it in the studies that I referred to, do those doctors not understand?  I was only reporting what the studies said.

[WaveHunter]

13 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You wanted a scientific discussion, but don't appear to understand the science.

Spanish Flu killed the young and strong, children and the elderly survived.

That is not an argument, that is fact.

If you had bothered to read my reply to you just now you would have seen that I said I agreed with what you said, "...it is true that anyone (even the young, strong and healthy) can be done in by a viral infection..., but then went on and added, "...but impairment of the immune response vastly increases the odds of becoming infected,"

 

As for your comment, "You wanted a scientific discussion, but don't appear to understand the science..."  Here is the post of mine that I referred in my original reply to you that discusses immunity response.  Just what is your objection?; how is it specifically that I am not understanding the science?

 

One of the best ways to protect yourself from this virus, or any virus including Influenza for that matter is not really being discussed but should be.  Everyone knows about washing your hands, wearing masks, avoided crowds of strangers, etc, but a more basic and highly effective way to protect yourself is simply getting adequate sleep!

 

Hear me out before dismissing this.  There are countless credible, science-based studies linking lack of adequate sleep and an altered circadian system with impaired immunity response.  Click to see a list of some of them.

 

Most people who suffer from sleep disorders also have a high frequency of colds and other viral infections.

 

With any viral infection, your immune response is what determines degree of infection.  In other words, whether your symptoms will only be mild or whether you may end up with more serious symptoms possibly requiring intensive hospital care.

 

Basically, during sleep, your immune system releases proteins called cytokines.  Cytokines are crucial for fighting off infections and in other immune responses.  Certain cytokines need to increase when you have an infection or inflammation, or when you're under stress. Sleep deprivation may decrease production of these protective cytokines. In addition, infection-fighting antibodies and cells are reduced during periods when you don't get enough sleep.

 

I am only discussing this because sleep and the circadian system are strong regulators of immunological processes.  For many people, staying up late at night watching TV or playing/texting on their mobile devices means not only are they not getting enough sleep but they are also screwing up their circadian cycles.

 

If you understand and appreciate the connection between lack of sleep, altered circadian rhythms, and impaired immune response, you may then agree that getting proper sleep may be the best way to avoid infections by any and all types of viruses.

 

Here is a study (from NCBI, part of National Institute of Health, so very credible peer-reviewed source) that is an easy read and explains the basic science behind it, and really drives the point home.  If nothing else, just read the Summary and concluding remarks:

 

"Sleep and immune function"

 

For those who want more science, read this report about activation of human antigen-specific T cells (also from NCBI):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400544/pdf/JEM_20181169.pdf

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by WaveHunter

[NCC1701A]

On 2/14/2020 at 10:38 AM, WaveHunter said:

First of all, a new report from Los Alamos Labs calculates Covid-19 may actually have an R0 (R-Naught) of between 4.7 to 6.6.  That is massively contagious, perhaps as much as by a factor of 2x than previously believed!  This is a new report, not yet peer-reviewed, but Los Alamos is a highly respected organization so this should be taken seriously.  If true, it is a serious disturbing game-changer in how dangerous this virus actually is  What's happening on the cruise ship that's been in the news lately strongly supports the notion of such a high R-naught value as this. 

thank you for your interesting post. i see you put a lot of effort into in. 

 

IMO however in the real world where I conduct my personal research,  say in a place like Pattaya where people have extremely intimate contact with many people in a day, there seems to be almost no cases. Many say that is because the Chinese are not in western style bars. But we all know that they are everywhere in hotels, and many Thais come in contact with them. Those same Thais go to night clubs, universities and other locations. Same with Bangkok, why are we not seeing huge numbers of people coming down with Covid-19?  

 

My personal experience with a place like Pattaya is one out of three trips I get some sort of flu or cold. There are just so any people of all nationalities in your face everywhere you go. Many girls have what I call the "bargirl cough". Who knows what it really is. I personally know many girls who are working in Korea right now for big bucks and they fly back and forth all the time. One came back sick as a dog but who know what she had. But no Covid-19. 

 

but if you are right, we are doomed because just last night I was out dancing with my girlfriend and the clubs were packed and everyone was in everyone's "space" and we had to walk outside just to catch some air. And of course no one is going to be wearing a mask in that environment.    

 

and i see the "mask fad" is over with western tourists and many Thai vendors. almost zero masks in Bluport mall yesterday except with employees of some businesses. 

 

i live in a part of Thailand that is very popular with Chinese tourists. They have been coming to Hua Hin for months way before the danger was understood. so when I go to my 7 11 there they are. sometimes in large groups.

touching everything in the 7 11, using ATM's, riding baht buses. so far one case of Covid-19 here.  

 

anyway we will know in another 30 days if this takes off or peaks. 

 

here are current photos from this week of tourists of all types (including Chinese) in three different locations packed together in Hua Hin. This goes on every night. and the afternoon market with many tourists. and the packed baht buses. they are like that all the time. everyone smashed together. 

 

[WaveHunter]

I'm going to say something here that I'm sure I'll catch flak for from the known haters on this thread and those that continue to believe this outbreak is "somebody else's" problem, but I don't care.  It needs to be said.  You can give credence to it or not, but at the very least you should consider the possibility because it's actually pretty important.

 

Even though the popular notion right now is that Covid-19 originated in the Huanan seafood wholesale market in Wuhan, there's still no real firm evidence that substantiates the market as the actual origin of the outbreak.  I emphasize the word "origin"  

 

There's no question that the market contributed an important role in the epidemic, but there is yet no proof it was the actual source.  There is a big difference between a place contributing to an outbreak, and a place being the source of the outbreak.  It's important because identifying the actual source plays a huge role in containing the outbreak.   

 

There is strong evidence that the market was not the initial source of the outbreak.  Consider that the earliest date for first symptoms was reported as 1 December 2019, in a person who did not have any exposure to the market or to the remaining affected 40 people that were part of the first reports of symptoms, and 13 of the initial 41 people found with Covid-19 had no link with the market.

 

There are some as yet unproven theories as to the actual source that are being shrugged off as merely conspiratorial but one has some credence to it.  Personally, I don't think it's "tin foil hat" thinking to consider it might have escaped from a Bio-Lab, considering that the only level 4 biohazard lab (the highest biosafety level) in China which is equipped to study and deal with such deadly and emerging infectious diseases is located in Wuhan, and only 20 miles from the Huanan seafood wholesale market.  See link.

 

What's more, ahead of this lab's opening in January 2018, biosafety experts and scientists from the US expressed serious concerns that a virus could escape the lab.  Click to read article appearing in Nature. 

 

Also there is the acknowledged fact China has a poor record of containment in such facilities as evidenced when the SARS virus escaped from high-level containment facilities in Beijing multiple times, which took a long time before they actually admitted that it had happened.  See the same article appearing in Nature.

 

I am free to voice my opinion (and it is only my opinion), and so I will.  I really believe this bio-lab could very well be the actual source.  It certainly explain why China's central government would cover up the outbreak during the initial 30 days.  It would also explain why China so far has ignored repeated offers from the United States Center for Disease Control to send scientists over to help (probably the best in the world at dealing with viral outbreaks), the first offer coming back in December. Of lesser importance but still significant, the market was closed on 1 January 2020 for sanitary procedures and disinfection (which of course had to be done) in such a way that any sort of forensic investigations at the time were a low priority, and are now impossible. 

 

Why do they continue stonewalling repeated offers, and now are only allowing scientists from WHO to come in (an organizations that has proven to be seriously flawed so far in this outbreak), and seems more concerned with protecting China's economic interests than the health and safety of the global community)

 

I think a logical explanation for all of this is that China's ruling party, the CCP, screwed up big time and they know it.  They are now furiously trying to fix the mess they've caused before allowing anyone from the outside to see how bad they screwed up (saving face) , not to mention saving face with their own citizens for perpetrating this on them, and then going on to deceive them, saying all is well, all is under control.  It is not under control.

Edited February 15, 2020 by WaveHunter

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

If you had bothered to read my reply to you just now you would have seen that I said I agreed with what you said, "...it is true that anyone (even the young, strong and healthy) can be done in by a viral infection..., but then went on and added, "...but impairment of the immune response vastly increases the odds of becoming infected,"

I've been ill with flu like symptoms since I returned from Vietnam last month.

Blocked ears, mild cough, normal temperature (white guy 65 years old), didn't stop me doing anything, just the mild cough left after 3 weeks.

My son got it last week, high fever, vomiting, mild cough (Thai/Brit 8 years old), again 3 days totally washed out, just the cough now. (His entire school is ill).

My gf has had it a few days, high fever, vomiting, mild cough (Thai mid 30s) been lying on the sofa three days now.

 

Don't know what this is, but the old white guy with the lowered immune system came through it with the least effect.

Edited February 15, 2020 by BritManToo

[WaveHunter]

12 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I've been ill with flu like symptoms since I returned from Vietnam last month.

Blocked ears, mild cough, normal temperature (white guy 65 years old), just the mild cough left after 3 weeks.

My son got it last week, high fever, vomiting, mild cough (Thai/Brit 8 years old), just the cough now.

My gf has had it a few days, high fever, vomiting, mild cough (Thai mid 30s) been lying on the sofa three days now.

 

Don't know what this is, but the old white guy with the lowered immune system came through it with the least effect.

Sorry to hear that, and glad you and family are recovering.  I can only imagine how relieved you must feel right now.  I hope you understand, I am not trying to be mean spirited in my replies, and I'm not trying to be Mr. Know-It-All.  I'm only talking about immunity response because it's such an important thing when it comes avoiding or at least minimizing the effects of a viral infection.  I think it's important to discuss because protecting and enhancing immunity response is something we all can easily do, and should be considered just as important as wearing a mask or washing your hands right now.

 

When it comes to preventative measures, protecting and boosting your immunity response through things like maintaining a healthy lifestyle, proper diet and getting adequate sleep may sound overly simplistic, but there is strong science-based evidence that they can be very effective, and can make a big difference if you do get a viral infection.  It can be the difference between only suffering minor symptoms and winding up in a hospital for many people.

Edited February 15, 2020 by WaveHunter

[SkyFax]

From the current version of the FEB 2017 Nature article linked above:

 

Editors’ note, January 2020: Many stories have promoted an unverified theory that the Wuhan lab discussed in this article played a role in the coronavirus outbreak that began in December 2019. Nature knows of no evidence that this is true; scientists believe the most likely source of the coronavirus to be an animal market.

Edited February 15, 2020 by SkyFax

[WaveHunter]

31 minutes ago, SkyFax said:

From the current version of the FEB 2017 Nature article linked above:

 

Editors’ note, January 2020: Many stories have promoted an unverified theory that the Wuhan lab discussed in this article played a role in the coronavirus outbreak that began in December 2019. Nature knows of no evidence that this is true; scientists believe the most likely source of the coronavirus to be an animal market.

Agreed...nobody knows for sure what the source of the virus is...which is really my point.  There is no evidence that the bio-lab may have been the source, and there is also no evidence that the market may have been the source either.. 

 

By the same token, neither can be ruled out either.  The only thing about the market that can actually be confirmed is that the market contributed to the outbreak, but it can not be said it was necessarily the source.  Those are two very different things when it comes to figuring out how this outbreak started, and it's important to know since that knowledge will play a big role at controlling it.

 

Normally I wouldn't be so doubtful of the market being the source except for the fact that the first recorded symptoms on 01 December and 13 of the 41 initial confirmed cases had no link to the marketplace...so that is a very big question mark in my mind. 

 

Also is the documented fact that SARS was released in a similar bio-lab in Beijing on several different occasions but covered up initially by the government...so just because they deny this happened in Wuhan does not mean it did not. 

 

See the article that discusses no link to market place in initial cases , and The Lancet study it was based on.  Both are highly regarded source; The Lancet is probably the most well respected source of peer-reviewed medical science in the world.

 

Bottom line, there is a LOT of question marks associated with this outbreak and until each is either confirmed or debunked,  all things should be considered with an open mind and in an objective way.  Isn't that really a fair and balanced way to look at all of this, rather than just accepting what authorities and mass media would have us believe?

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by WaveHunter

[SkyFax]

20 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Isn't that really a fair and balanced way to look at all of this, rather than just accepting what authorities and mass media would have us believe?

No -- just because all options might be considered does not mean that all options are equally plausible.

[WaveHunter]

11 minutes ago, SkyFax said:

No -- just because all options might be considered does not mean that all options are equally plausible.

OK fine, all plausible ones.  That's a distinction that's well noted and certainly makes good sense.  The marketplace is a plausible one.  So is the bio-lab, in light of the reasons I stated.

Edited February 15, 2020 by WaveHunter

[SkyFax]

11 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

OK fine, all plausible ones.  That's a distinction that's well noted and certainly makes good sense.  The marketplace is a plausible one.  So is the bio-lab, in light of the reasons I stated.

I think the above Nature Editor's Note use of the word 'stories' was being polite and professional.

[rvaviator]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

I've been ill with flu like symptoms since I returned from Vietnam last month.

Blocked ears, mild cough, normal temperature (white guy 65 years old), didn't stop me doing anything, just the mild cough left after 3 weeks.

My son got it last week, high fever, vomiting, mild cough (Thai/Brit 8 years old), again 3 days totally washed out, just the cough now. (His entire school is ill).

My gf has had it a few days, high fever, vomiting, mild cough (Thai mid 30s) been lying on the sofa three days now.

 

Don't know what this is, but the old white guy with the lowered immune system came through it with the least effect.

Well the "older white guy" will have been "around" longer and may have been exposed to that particular strain of flue virus - Hence your body may have been more adapt to fight that particular virus.

 

Some interesting reading here   https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13054-019-2566-7

 

Not that I would claim to understand it all ????,  But hey got to try and keep the grey matter active somehow

 

Good you all recovered !

Edited February 15, 2020 by rvaviator
adding external link

[WaveHunter]

23 minutes ago, SkyFax said:

I think the above Nature Editor's Note use of the word 'stories' was being polite and professional.

While the editor's note may have been "polite and professional", the use of the word "stories" has no meaningful implication at all.  For an editor, the word is simply synonymous with articles or reports.  Not wishing to to be impolite, but I think the inference of the word is more yours than theirs

 

I provided documented and undeniable facts (links to sources included) that make me question the plausibility of the market place as the source, and make me seriously consider the bio-lab.  In summary they are:

 

• Initial infected cases back in early December had no link to the marketplace. (probably my biggest question mark of all)
• Warnings were voiced by experts before the opening of the Wuhan BioLab that there was a likelihood that viruses could escape from the facility, and that China was not well equipped to run such a facility safely.
• The actual release of SARS on at least 3 occasions in Beijing that were covered up by the government until the coverup was finally exposed.

 

All I am saying is that I don't think it's a wise idea these days to simply accept what authorities and mass media throw out there as fact.  It often is far from it. 

 

If the truth is really important to you, you have to find well vetted sources of reliable information (and from more than one such source), consider all the information objectively, and then make up you rown mind about what is true and what is not.

Edited February 15, 2020 by WaveHunter

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6 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

While the editor's note may have been "polite and professional", the use of the word "stories" has no meaningful implication at all.  For an editor, the word is simply synonymous with articles or reports.  Not wishing to to be impolite, but I think the inference of the word is more yours than theirs

I think the use of the word 'stories' by the Editors of Nature is pejorative.