UK defends coronavirus response after Reuters investigation

[CG1 Blue]

32 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

That is the Times you are quoting, owned - like the Sun - by Rup the antichrist. 

 

Coronavirus vaccine could be ready by September - standard medical opinion is 18 month for a vaccine. Note the could, an elephant COULD drop out off the sky and crush your car, try that on the insurance company!

The claim is from Sarah Gilbert (Professor of Vaccinology at Oxford), not from The Times. The Times are simply reporting it, alongside many other news outlets. Don't let your rage against the Rup machine cloud your judgement! 

 

 

 

 

[candide]

55 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

That is the Times you are quoting, owned - like the Sun - by Rup the antichrist. 

 

Coronavirus vaccine could be ready by September - standard medical opinion is 18 month for a vaccine. Note the could, an elephant COULD drop out off the sky and crush your car, try that on the insurance company!

Testing, getting approved and manufacturing large quantities takes a lot of time. From what I understand, they intend here to shortcut testing time by testing human beings directly in normal situation. Even if it is ready by September, it will take time to get it approved by health authorities and to be mass produced. So likely for midyear 2021.

[evadgib]

12 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The evidence of Johnson’s failed callous ‘herd immunity experiment’ is in plain sight, and nowhere summoned up better than his own words:

 

Boris Johnson appearing on This Morning on Thursday 5 March: “Well it’s a very, very important question, and that’s where a lot of the debate has been and one of the theories is, that perhaps you could take it on the chin, take it all in one go and allow the disease, as it were, to move through the population, without taking as many draconian measures.”

 

Those were is words and his actions/inaction followed that precisely until challenges by scientists outside the government’s circle were published and discussed in the nation’s media. Only then did Johnson U-Turn, the virus did not.

 

Tragically, the consequences of his stupidity are are being born by individuals and families across the nation.

 

Journalism that exposes Johnson’s failings in his response to the Pandemic is of course important and helpful to public understanding,  but what is required is a full, open and transparent public inquiry.

 

Unfortunately the Inquiries Act hands government the absolute authority to determine the scope and boundaries of public inquiries, the truth of the decisions behind Johnson’s failed callous ‘herd immunity experiment’ will almost certainly not surface while he remains in office.

I'm curious as to why Sweden's herd immunity seems to be working, & why the Govt haven't bothered to rhubarb this report for the clickbait it appears to be.

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, evadgib said:

I'm curious as to why Sweden's herd immunity seems to be working, & why the Govt haven't bothered to rhubarb this report for the clickbait it appears to be.

Is it working?

 

"...the underlying statistics showing that Sweden has become more susceptible to the virus than neighbouring countries. The death rate of coronavirus-infected patients in Norway is less than 2%, with the figure in Denmark around 4%. In Sweden, nearly 8% of people to have contracted coronavirus have died."

[sirineou]

Many posts of the every government reacted the same which is not true. Some governments were more concerned with economics that they were with the well being of their citizens with obvious results.

"Greece Shows How to Handle the Crisis "

"(Bloomberg Opinion) -- The Covid-19 epidemic has exposed poor leadership and governance worldwide. From Spain to the U.K. to the U.S., politicians have waited far too long before taking the dramatic steps needed to protect their citizens. Greece has been one noticeable — and perhaps surprising — exception to this trend. "

https://www.bloombergquint.com/gadfly/greece-handled-coronavirus-crisis-better-than-italy-and-spain

 

[Brigand]

Shouldn't Reuters be actively investigating the German government response? Not seen and reports of that.

[SCOTT FITZGERSLD]

On 4/9/2020 at 9:49 PM, FarFlungFalang said:

it turns out it wasn't that bad for China and South Korea if you check the numbers today compared to the numbers in Europe and America

you can't believe any numbers that are coming from asian countries, including

the advanced ones like japan korea ans singapore.

those are not really western like democracies with free press.

the governments there are authoritarian in nature and know how to control

everything, from the media to the reported death reasons in hospitals and 

finished with getting rid of the bodies (burning them quickly).

[CG1 Blue]

52 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Is it working?

 

"...the underlying statistics showing that Sweden has become more susceptible to the virus than neighbouring countries. The death rate of coronavirus-infected patients in Norway is less than 2%, with the figure in Denmark around 4%. In Sweden, nearly 8% of people to have contracted coronavirus have died."

The death rate points to the quality of medical care they receive after they contract it, or the general health of the population, I would have thought? 

 

More telling would be the percentage of the population being hospitalised with CV 19 in Sweden vs other countries. I think that would be a better indication of whether Sweden's herd immunity strategy is working or not. 

[rickudon]

China's first confirmed death was 10th January. Two weeks later China started their lockdown, when they had 25 confirmed deaths (There were possibly other deaths, but not confirmed). They beat it with draconian, early action. But within 3 weeks China had 1380 deaths and still ended up with over 3000 deaths. implementing their Hubei lockdown saved them. And with their aggressive control and monitoring, stopped serious spread outside the province.

Italy had their first recorded death on February 21st. By the time they started their lockdown just over 2 weeks later that toll had risen to 463. Covid-19 is no slowcoach.  So we can see such exponential growth that you can expect up to 100 times more deaths than exist when you start the lockdown. By the time the Italy lockdown started we knew what was going to come.

 

France introduced restrictive measures on 12 March, going to full lockdown a couple of days later. Spain started on the 14th March. But the UK dragged it's feet, only going to lockdown on the 23rd. If we had gone to lockdown at the same time as italy, deaths might have been kept to under 2,000 (using the 100 times multiplier), instead we are in for about 30,000 deaths. That is criminal negligence.

 

People say the economic effects will be worse than the deaths. Well China was able to just about wipe it out in 10 weeks. It will take a lot longer for the European countries to recover, due to the widespread number of cases.

 

Business as usual with some social distancing may slow the spread, but not stop it. Sweden isn't actually doing that well. It's rate is lower than the UK, but if they stick to it their death toll will be as high as the UK's by the end of the month - and they have only 10 million people.

 

Their will no 'return to normal'. Not this year. travel restrictions will remain. Vaccine? IF it works. A vaccine has to be tested, and then production ramped up to produce possibly billions of doses (if we want to wipe it out) - and then actually given to people. Every country will have border controls for Covid-19 while it remains a threat.

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, rickudon said:

Italy had their first recorded death on February 21st. By the time they started their lockdown just over 2 weeks later that toll had risen to 463. Covid-19 is no slowcoach.  So we can see such exponential growth that you can expect up to 100 times more deaths than exist when you start the lockdown. By the time the Italy lockdown started we knew what was going to come.

 

France introduced restrictive measures on 12 March, going to full lockdown a couple of days later. Spain started on the 14th March. But the UK dragged it's feet, only going to lockdown on the 23rd. If we had gone to lockdown at the same time as italy, deaths might have been kept to under 2,000 (using the 100 times multiplier), instead we are in for about 30,000 deaths. That is criminal negligence.

It's not as simple as that. A lockdown in civilised democracies can only really begin when the public are going to support it. Start the lockdown too early and it's ineffective, because the people won't adhere to it. The British public would not have supported a lockdown when the virus was taking hold all the way over in Italy. 

 

I'm sure now most of us wish we did act when Italy did, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

[Rookiescot]

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

It's not as simple as that. A lockdown in civilised democracies can only really begin when the public are going to support it. Start the lockdown too early and it's ineffective, because the people won't adhere to it. The British public would not have supported a lockdown when the virus was taking hold all the way over in Italy. 

 

I'm sure now most of us wish we did act when Italy did, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

New Zealand is a good example of why that logic is flawed.

[superal]

14 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

A fair point, but I suspect this is because previous WHO predicted pandemics (SARS etc.) turned out to be pretty insignificant in those western countries. Western governments will no doubt take the next pandemic warning much more seriously. 

  On 4/10/2020 at 3:54 PM, stevenl said:

Nonsense. WHO issued a pandemic warning in January, nothing was done by the western countries, some even still downplaying, till mid march.

 

I think both of these posts have hit the nail on the head . A certain amount of apathy from those that matter within the UK government probably because of the limited effect from SARS . A wait and see attitude that meant most of the PPE needed for the front line NHS had been acquired by other countries . I cannot believe or understand why the front line medics , without full protection ,  are being asked to treat infected patients . Would you allow one of your loved ones to work on the front line without adequate PPE ? 

 

When this nightmare ends there has to be an inquiry to reveal the UK virus pandemic plan / strategy prior to the outbreak . the " Herd Immunity survival of the fittest " ,  resisting school closures  even when teachers were getting infected , lack of vital medical equipment etc .  

 

[Chomper Higgot]

15 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

You are a victim of fake news I'm afraid. Make sure you check your facts. 

 

Boris Johnson’s position on coronavirus has been misrepresented by an out of context clip – and it must stop

Fake news merchants on the cesspit that is Twitter are distributing a clip of the Prime Minister from ITV’s This Morning last week.

He is not for a second saying that the government’s plan is to take it on the chin, but simply it’s a theory that is being debated by others.

Boris was answering a question to him put by the presenter Phillip Schofield

Crucially after the fake news clip, he clarifies the government’s position further.

He says: “I think we need to strike a balance. I think it's very important, we've got a fantastic NHS. We'll give them all the support that they need. We'll make sure that they have all the preparations all the kit that they need for us to get through it but I think it would be better if we take all the measures that we can now just to stop the peak of the disease being as difficult for the NHS as it would. I think there are things that we may be able to do.”

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11142020/boris-johnsons-coronavirus-misrepresented-out-of-context-clip/

 

 

You accuse me of being a victim of fake news and as evidence you produce an opinion piece from that bastion of truth and journalism ‘The Sun’.

 

Yeh right!

[Chomper Higgot]

8 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I'm sure now most of us wish we did act when Italy did, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

Though not as effective as having the foresight and humility to learn from others. 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

12 hours ago, Brigand said:

Shouldn't Reuters be actively investigating the German government response? Not seen and reports of that.

Reuters is an international news agency, it’s HQ is at Canary Ward London.

[superal]

8 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

It's not as simple as that. A lockdown in civilised democracies can only really begin when the public are going to support it. Start the lockdown too early and it's ineffective, because the people won't adhere to it. The British public would not have supported a lockdown when the virus was taking hold all the way over in Italy. 

 

I'm sure now most of us wish we did act when Italy did, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

A UK lock down has not been experienced in modern times . There were many thousands of people who did not comply . The lock down should have been an order not a request and letting people out to exercise sent the wrong message .  The most difficult activity to control is shopping however Wuhan managed it over an 11 week period using the  Peoples Liberation Army  who were also involved using their medics at the front line and none of them were infected by the virus , all down to a nasal spray developed by an army scientist . 

[Chomper Higgot]

21 minutes ago, superal said:

A UK lock down has not been experienced in modern times . There were many thousands of people who did not comply . The lock down should have been an order not a request and letting people out to exercise sent the wrong message .  The most difficult activity to control is shopping however Wuhan managed it over an 11 week period using the  Peoples Liberation Army  who were also involved using their medics at the front line and none of them were infected by the virus , all down to a nasal spray developed by an army scientist . 

I’m not sure I would trust statements and claims made by ‘The People’s Liberation Army’.

[Nino1986]

Is like very small percentage from governments fault than from WHO and China. This guy the president of Who should go to the International court for this what happened. Even I dont like Trump too much But I support him when he Got <deleted> off and wanted to cut all money that USA is giving to WHO. 

Just anybody who have a little bit of sense and logic sees that in miles. The CCP knew about this virus already in November to atleast start of December and what WHO did? They knew that Beijing doesnt allow them to fully experiment the virus, They were allowed to be Just 1 or 2 days in Wuhan from their 2 weeks of visit, They had definetely the power to do something against that, the second thing it was known by Chinese governments that it was spreaded from human to human while the WHO gives statement on 14th January that it is no k own transmision from Human to Human, They were denying it until January 21st, until thatn the CCP could send all the sick People to "LEVEL THE SCORE" so no country was in advantage over China and it took until march for WHO to say oh its Pandemic now while they had ALL the doctors, ALL the experts, ALL the money yet this guy Tedros wasnt doing anything in favor of other countries than in favor of China. When this is over this guy should go to INTERNATIONAL Crime  Court along with his Chinese puppets. 

[stevenl]

11 minutes ago, Nino1986 said:

Is like very small percentage from governments fault than from WHO and China. This guy the president of Who should go to the International court for this what happened. Even I dont like Trump too much But I support him when he Got <deleted> off and wanted to cut all money that USA is giving to WHO. 

Just anybody who have a little bit of sense and logic sees that in miles. The CCP knew about this virus already in November to atleast start of December and what WHO did? They knew that Beijing doesnt allow them to fully experiment the virus, They were allowed to be Just 1 or 2 days in Wuhan from their 2 weeks of visit, They had definetely the power to do something against that, the second thing it was known by Chinese governments that it was spreaded from human to human while the WHO gives statement on 14th January that it is no k own transmision from Human to Human, They were denying it until January 21st, until thatn the CCP could send all the sick People to "LEVEL THE SCORE" so no country was in advantage over China and it took until march for WHO to say oh its Pandemic now while they had ALL the doctors, ALL the experts, ALL the money yet this guy Tedros wasnt doing anything in favor of other countries than in favor of China. When this is over this guy should go to INTERNATIONAL Crime  Court along with his Chinese puppets. 

A pity you're distorting the facts. Already in January the WHO issued a major worldwide health warning for this. Pandemic is just a (IMO meaningless) definition due to number of deaths in more than one country. In mid January China said there was no evidence of human to human infection, at the same though the WHO declared human to human infection very well possible.

And China put a whole province in lockdown, unprecedented, in an attempt to slow/stop the spread.

 

Trump, and other western governments, most noticeably the UK, kept downplaying until mid March, 45 days after the WHO issued a grave warning. And you want to blame the WHO for that?

 

I agree the WHO made mistakes, looks like they should have been much more pro-active in this, but the major blame for letting this get out of hand lies with the western governments and their inaction, their apparent belief it would blow over (just like SARS, Ebola, H1N1 etc. turned out to be no major issues).

Edited April 12, 2020 by stevenl

[edwinchester]

Cast your minds back a month to the reporting of the escalating number of deaths in Italy and the tone of those reports. They weren’t sensationalist but they definitely portrayed a seriousness and an urgency of something that was truly horrific. 

Friday, the number of deaths reported in the UK over the previous 24 hours surpassed the single highest daily death toll of Italy (yesterday was nearly as bad). But the media reports it as “we’re on track”, and “it’s what we expected” or “where we expected to be”. 

I’m now totally sick of seeing posts from brainwashed people on TV, Facebook and Twitter thinking Boris and the UK Government have been anything other than catastrophic. I’d be saying the exact same thing if there was a Labour Government in charge. Would you? 

Can you imagine the outcry if Diane Abbott had bought 17.5m antibody tests that were useless? Can you imagine the outcry if Jeremy Corbyn was presiding over a death toll that is on track to be the highest per capita of anywhere in the world? If Labour had adopted a policy that virtually no other country in the world was adopting before changing course three weeks later, and therefore losing three weeks where they could have been preparing? Can you imagine the outcry if Labour had refused to join calls with EU leaders in the weeks leading up to the surge of the crisis here, whilst those countries were in the middle of their surge and would be able to share with us the lessons they’ve learned? Can you imagine the outcry if Labour had refused help from countries in securing ventilators and PPE; instead throwing money at companies like Burberry and Dyson that have absolutely no experience in the manufacture of those products whatsoever? 

I didn’t want to make this party political but it is. The newspapers are making it party political. They’re giving the Government a pass on decisions that have cost, and will continue to cost, thousands of lives, purely because they support their political persuasion.  

Other national leaders; Merkel, Ardern, as examples, took the right decisions at the right times and and have saved thousands of lives. 

If you stood outside and had a clap for Boris the other night then fair play on a human level. But if you were clapping the job he and his Government have done, you are beyond help. You are the victim of a propaganda machine. I’m not sure there’s a way back for you. You lack the ability to see what is happening before your own eyes.

[superal]

3 hours ago, edwinchester said:

Cast your minds back a month to the reporting of the escalating number of deaths in Italy and the tone of those reports. They weren’t sensationalist but they definitely portrayed a seriousness and an urgency of something that was truly horrific. 

Friday, the number of deaths reported in the UK over the previous 24 hours surpassed the single highest daily death toll of Italy (yesterday was nearly as bad). But the media reports it as “we’re on track”, and “it’s what we expected” or “where we expected to be”. 

I’m now totally sick of seeing posts from brainwashed people on TV, Facebook and Twitter thinking Boris and the UK Government have been anything other than catastrophic. I’d be saying the exact same thing if there was a Labour Government in charge. Would you? 

Can you imagine the outcry if Diane Abbott had bought 17.5m antibody tests that were useless? Can you imagine the outcry if Jeremy Corbyn was presiding over a death toll that is on track to be the highest per capita of anywhere in the world? If Labour had adopted a policy that virtually no other country in the world was adopting before changing course three weeks later, and therefore losing three weeks where they could have been preparing? Can you imagine the outcry if Labour had refused to join calls with EU leaders in the weeks leading up to the surge of the crisis here, whilst those countries were in the middle of their surge and would be able to share with us the lessons they’ve learned? Can you imagine the outcry if Labour had refused help from countries in securing ventilators and PPE; instead throwing money at companies like Burberry and Dyson that have absolutely no experience in the manufacture of those products whatsoever? 

I didn’t want to make this party political but it is. The newspapers are making it party political. They’re giving the Government a pass on decisions that have cost, and will continue to cost, thousands of lives, purely because they support their political persuasion.  

Other national leaders; Merkel, Ardern, as examples, took the right decisions at the right times and and have saved thousands of lives. 

If you stood outside and had a clap for Boris the other night then fair play on a human level. But if you were clapping the job he and his Government have done, you are beyond help. You are the victim of a propaganda machine. I’m not sure there’s a way back for you. You lack the ability to see what is happening before your own eyes.

               Johnson acted on the advice of two highly qualified medical scientists and their teams . Johnson had no choice but to follow their advice which for some reason went in a different direction from the rest of the world .       Could it be that 1/  they realised too late the c19 was not another SARS that had previously not affected the UK ?   2/ that the resources needed to fight this virus were not available because of their delayed response meant equipment had been acquired by other countries ? 

So they resorted to the herd immunity theory which to me was their way out until 250 other notable scientists  etc intervened , thank god .  So now in a catch up mode leaving behind unnecessary deaths and a front line of under equipped  heroic NHS workers .

I fail to see how BJ  can be held accountable for the poor performance of his advisers . If JC had been at the helm we would be in the same predicament . Indeed this is not a time for political arguments and I for one am pleased to see the other parties getting involved and trying to help .    

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, superal said:

               Johnson acted on the advice of two highly qualified medical scientists and their teams . Johnson had no choice but to follow their advice which for some reason went in a different direction from the rest of the world .       Could it be that 1/  they realised too late the c19 was not another SARS that had previously not affected the UK ?   2/ that the resources needed to fight this virus were not available because of their delayed response meant equipment had been acquired by other countries ? 

So they resorted to the herd immunity theory which to me was their way out until 250 other notable scientists  etc intervened , thank god .  So now in a catch up mode leaving behind unnecessary deaths and a front line of under equipped  heroic NHS workers .

I fail to see how BJ  can be held accountable for the poor performance of his advisers . If JC had been at the helm we would be in the same predicament . Indeed this is not a time for political arguments and I for one am pleased to see the other parties getting involved and trying to help .    

Lots of speculation, shortage of facts in your post.

[CG1 Blue]

9 hours ago, stevenl said:

A pity you're distorting the facts. Already in January the WHO issued a major worldwide health warning for this. Pandemic is just a (IMO meaningless) definition due to number of deaths in more than one country. In mid January China said there was no evidence of human to human infection, at the same though the WHO declared human to human infection very well possible.

And China put a whole province in lockdown, unprecedented, in an attempt to slow/stop the spread.

 

Trump, and other western governments, most noticeably the UK, kept downplaying until mid March, 45 days after the WHO issued a grave warning. And you want to blame the WHO for that?

 

I agree the WHO made mistakes, looks like they should have been much more pro-active in this, but the major blame for letting this get out of hand lies with the western governments and their inaction, their apparent belief it would blow over (just like SARS, Ebola, H1N1 etc. turned out to be no major issues).

The problem is the UK had not been seriously affected by a major pandemic in modern times. The WHO issued similar warnings for SARS, Ebola etc.

 

Why would the government shut down the economy and ruin countless people's lives given that in the past we escaped similar pandemics? Strong measures were only taken once it was clear we were not going to escape this one. Sadly that has probably resulted in more deaths. 

 

The same decisions would have been made by a Labour government under the circumstances. Governments can only be guided by their experts and history. 

 

Of course having learned a painful lesson this time, future UK governments will make different choices I'm sure. 

 

[CG1 Blue]

10 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You accuse me of being a victim of fake news and as evidence you produce an opinion piece from that bastion of truth and journalism ‘The Sun’.

 

Yeh right!

But you agree your comment about Boris was fake news, yes? One clip taken out of context to deceive those gullible enough. 

[Welshpete]

To allow meeting of such huge numbers of people from all over the country I.e Cheltenham races 350,000 people attending, when the virus is knowingly highly contagious the current leaders of Britain who have not been able to supply PPE for frontline nhs staff, .  And tried to promote herd immunity at the cost of the aged and vulnerable should be held to account by the people the system that has been created is absolutely disgusting. Luckily here in Thailand there seems to be a level of control very little spread of the viruse. So no matter what difficulties one has to endure while being a guest be thankful for small sacrifice is far superior to lack of life

[CG1 Blue]

22 minutes ago, Welshpete said:

To allow meeting of such huge numbers of people from all over the country I.e Cheltenham races 350,000 people attending, when the virus is knowingly highly contagious the current leaders of Britain who have not been able to supply PPE for frontline nhs staff, .  And tried to promote herd immunity at the cost of the aged and vulnerable should be held to account by the people the system that has been created is absolutely disgusting. Luckily here in Thailand there seems to be a level of control very little spread of the viruse. So no matter what difficulties one has to endure while being a guest be thankful for small sacrifice is far superior to lack of life

Herd immunity was one of many methods / theories discussed in the earlier stages. I don't recall the UK government promoting herd immunity though. 

 

The lack of PPE for front line NHS staff needs investigating when this is over though. I'm with you on that. 

[stevenl]

44 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The problem is the UK had not been seriously affected by a major pandemic in modern times. The WHO issued similar warnings for SARS, Ebola etc.

 

Why would the government shut down the economy and ruin countless people's lives given that in the past we escaped similar pandemics? Strong measures were only taken once it was clear we were not going to escape this one. Sadly that has probably resulted in more deaths. 

 

The same decisions would have been made by a Labour government under the circumstances. Governments can only be guided by their experts and history. 

 

Of course having learned a painful lesson this time, future UK governments will make different choices I'm sure. 

 

Events in Italy, also a country that escaped SARS and Ebola, should have shown the way.

 

And I was not necessarily talking about shutting down the country, but ordering some masks and other necessary equipment would have been welcome.

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and replies have been removed. 

[3NUMBAS]

no country will ever shut down airlines fast enough as theyre more worried about tourism and economys to act fast enough..

 

anyways more on a vaccine by spetember

Coronavirus vaccine could be ready in September, scientist says

https://www.msn.com/en-in/health/familyhealth/coronavirus-vaccine-could-be-ready-in-september-scientist-says/ar-BB12t6Tk

[CG1 Blue]

10 hours ago, stevenl said:

Events in Italy, also a country that escaped SARS and Ebola, should have shown the way.

 

And I was not necessarily talking about shutting down the country, but ordering some masks and other necessary equipment would have been welcome.

Perhaps. 

 

I just object to seeing endless critisism of the government in these already depressing times. All four governments of the UK did as they were advised by their medical experts. 

 

I do agree there has been a major <deleted> up somewhere regarding PPE. That needs looking into.