Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[chessman]

17 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Maybe similar to a country's that did not lock down at all, like South Korea. Or Austria, a country who has been easing lockdowns for weeks and seen few, if any, ill effects. 

Difficult for Sweden to have similar amounts of deaths as South Korea and Austria who have less than 1000 deaths between them while Sweden now has more than 4000.

[yuyiinthesky]

47 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Maybe similar to a country's that did not lock down at all, like South Korea. Or Austria, a country who has been easing lockdowns for weeks and seen few, if any, ill effects. 

 

It seems to be ignored by most of you, but there is a pattern where countries show very similar curves in infections, whether they locked down or not. In fact, there is even some stats from US states showing lockdowns have had no effect at all. That trend is also being observed between countries. 

Indeed, ignored by quite a few here, which apparently have too much time and nothing better to do than to repeat the same claims all day long. I have the 3 main ignorants in my ignore list by now, it was just too much time wasted to read the same collection of half-truths and misinterpretations again and again.
 

A single country showing a drop of new cases without having had lockdowns is enough to prove that lockdowns are not required. And it is not just one, but there are many, Japan, South Korea, Cambodia, Taiwan, and so on. But no, they continue to claim that lockdowns are an absolute requirement, „the“ requirement.

 

And the countries which ease the lockdowns without that causing the cases to go up again, such as Austria, to name just one. Ignored, they continue to claim that lockdowns are the requirement.

 

It really seems that they like lockdowns, enjoy them. Or they just too scared and desperate, cannot think logically anymore.

 

Unless you have nothing better to do, I think the best is to ignore these ignorants.

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by yuyiinthesky

[scubascuba3]

Anyone know whether the Swedish Government is paying furlough? grants and loans to businesses? I'm assuming it would be lower than those countries that closed businesses and yes we are in a global economy

[simple1]

4 hours ago, Kinnock said:

Most of Sweden's fatalities are in care homes - so unrelated to a lockdown or not .... and their per capita rate is no worse than many other countries.  The politicians are never going to admit they succumbed to media induced fear, and the press are determined to keep up their fear campaign as it drives their click and readership rates.

 

Care home deaths in Sweden is less than 50% of overall deaths from Covid and is very much part of the Covid mitigation strategy, or lack of, for managing spread of Covid. Sweden's death rate for Covid is more than three times that of its near neighbours Denmark, Norway and Finland.

 

https://www.euronews.com/2020/05/21/are-care-homes-the-dark-side-of-sweden-s-coronavirus-strategy

 

As to be expected the last sentence is the usual conspiracy stuff from the trump supporter community.

Edited May 28, 2020 by simple1

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Have you any idea what the deaths would have been without the lockdowns? 

Who can say? However, given the average age of those that do die, perhaps not much more than have.

[Logosone]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Who can say? However, given the average age of those that do die, perhaps not much more than have.

Yes, there would have been a very small difference if Sweden had put in place a full lockdown.

 

The reason why there would have been a small difference is that whilst many lockdown measures were entirely useless, some measures such as a full closure of schools were shown to have made a difference.

 

However, the biggest difference would have been not lockdown, but if Sweden had put in place higher volume testing and isolation policies like Germany, Norway, Finland. It continues to be obvious that testing and isolating the sick was the key factor from New Zealand to Germany to Austria, not their respective lockdowns.

 

Either way, Sweden has a miniscule number of deaths, 0.04 % of the population is of course a tiny figure. Even if it were to double Sweden will be perfectly fine.

 

People will try and portray Sweden worse, by reference to population figures, which course distort the picture because Sweden has such a tiny population compared to France and other much larger countries, but that's irrelevant. Sweden has a tiny death figure. It could double or triple and Sweden would not have any issues.

 

This is in line with other countries like Japan, where no real lockdown was put in place for a long time and in Japan they also have a tiny figure. Though of course Japan's death figures are less likely to be accurate than Sweden's due to Japan's even lower testing figures.

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Who can say? However, given the average age of those that do die, perhaps not much more than have.

Who can say? Not you, not me, we can make assumptions but they are not the facts needed to save lives. Any anonymous poster on here can scream as much as they want that they are right for which ever model they fancy but its not based on fact or science, its a bias based on incomplete evidence.

 

Scientists can make predictive models such as the large numbers predicted for the UK and US should there have been no measures in place, or Tegnell makes his predictive models based on herd immunity, which are so far falling short of his targets.

 

Should we just let all countries follow the herd immunity model because its less restrictive or based on models that have not been tested yet? 

 

The BBC interview with Tegnell was a good watch but he did show clinks in his amour especially when he said that Swedish do not wear facemasks because they stay at home when they're sick. That is a scientifically incorrect statement with COVID as its currently estimate that around 50% of people do not know they have it. He also said that he would change his mind on this model if need be. We can see that his predecessor has done just that, she was all for his approach but has changed her mind.

[Bkk Brian]

6 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

A single country showing a drop of new cases without having had lockdowns is enough to prove that lockdowns are not required. And it is not just one, but there are many, Japan, South Korea, Cambodia, Taiwan, and so on. But no, they continue to claim that lockdowns are an absolute requirement, „the“ requirement.

So by that equation how is Brazil doing? No lockdowns, 26,417 new cases of the virus and 1,156 new deaths raising the total to 438,238 cases and 26,754 deaths. I guess they must be following your posts and decided that because just one country was currently successful then thats all the evidence needed.

[utalkin2me]

7 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Indeed, ignored by quite a few here, which apparently have too much time and nothing better to do than to repeat the same claims all day long. I have the 3 main ignorants in my ignore list by now, it was just too much time wasted to read the same collection of half-truths and misinterpretations again and again.
 

A single country showing a drop of new cases without having had lockdowns is enough to prove that lockdowns are not required. And it is not just one, but there are many, Japan, South Korea, Cambodia, Taiwan, and so on. But no, they continue to claim that lockdowns are an absolute requirement, „the“ requirement.

 

And the countries which ease the lockdowns without that causing the cases to go up again, such as Austria, to name just one. Ignored, they continue to claim that lockdowns are the requirement.

 

It really seems that they like lockdowns, enjoy them. Or they just too scared and desperate, cannot think logically anymore.

 

Unless you have nothing better to do, I think the best is to ignore these ignorants.

 

Thank you. It is great to know there are at least a few reasonable people out there. 

 

It is like pulling teeth to get people to understand, lockdowns were for MASS INFECTION. 

 

That is why we did lockdowns people. 

 

When country after country are not showing these mass infections and overwhelmed hospital systems, the lockdowns are unnecessary.

 

The real kicker is the lockdowns are proving to be totally ineffective. But I do not expect this crowd to understand that when they clearly can't get past step one. 

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

 

It is like pulling teeth to get people to understand, lockdowns were for MASS INFECTION. 

 

That is why we did lockdowns people. 

 

No words

[Bender Rodriguez]

13 hours ago, chessman said:

Predicted in a model that stated explicitly that those numbers would never happen. 

 

last time I checked, QUARANTINE is for SICK & WEAK people

 

the author of that fake prediction, did not want to release his parameters

 

it took 6 weeks to give them to the experts to have a look at

 

and then 

 

1) the lockdown was already in place

2) experts could see this was BOGUS and parameters were missing

 

but the plan of put the world in a panic was in place already

 

than the whole game of  ... masks, no masks, useless, useful ...

 

once the lockdown is over, the numbers will go up, but probably not the DEATHS

 

this is a virus that attacks people with weak immune (diabetes, insulin resistant, overweight, cancer, chronic diseases, old age (=less immune))

Edited May 29, 2020 by Bender Rodriguez

[yuyiinthesky]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

So by that equation how is Brazil doing? No lockdowns, 26,417 new cases of the virus and 1,156 new deaths raising the total to 438,238 cases and 26,754 deaths. I guess they must be following your posts and decided that because just one country was currently successful then thats all the evidence needed.

I‘m flattered that you think they might follow my posts here. ????

 

Please keep in mind that Brazil is a huge country, and a country with a lot of problems.

 

Quote

Brazil is the fifth most-populous country on Earth and accounts for one-third of Latin America’s population.

Source: https://www.britannica.com/place/Brazil

 

Thus, if you look at the absolute numbers, high numbers are to be expected. 
There is too much poverty there already, huge favelas, masses of people for whom a lockdown would be not only ineffective to stop infections, but deadly. Obviously very difficult to protect the elderly there.
 

Nevertheless the curves will also there go up, reach a peak, and go down again, whatever they do, and whatever I say.

Edited May 29, 2020 by yuyiinthesky

[yuyiinthesky]

25 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

 

the author of that fake prediction, did not want to release his parameters

And as said here earlier, a funny coincidence, his institute received a >70 million grant from our well known vaccine prophets just at the time he released the scary numbers generated by his flawed model.
Honi soit qui mal y pense.

 

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, yuyiinthesky said:

I‘m flattered that you think they might follow my posts here. ????

 

Please keep in mind that Brazil is a huge country, and a country with a lot of problems.

 

Source: https://www.britannica.com/place/Brazil

 

Thus, if you look at the absolute numbers, high numbers are to be expected. 
There is too much poverty there already, huge favelas, masses of people for whom a lockdown would be not only ineffective to stop infections, but deadly. Obviously very difficult to protect the elderly there.
 

Nevertheless the curves will also there go up, reach a peak, and go down again, whatever they do, and whatever I say.

Sarcasm perhaps ????

 

Indeed Brazil is hard to compare, almost impossible I would say without making a massive number of calculations. Precisely why one size does not suit all solution to the pandemic. All considerations and tools within the box need to be considered dependent on circumstances instead of calling for the herd immunity model constantly.

 

I've always been a strong believer in the South Korea model with no lockdowns and the success they've had because of the very quick action they took, no wasting time and as a result avoided needing lockdown through high testing, tracing, technology, closing certain venues, schools etc mass gatherings. However not all countries were as quick to act or have the resources.

 

As we can also see they have to remain on a war footing attempting to stop that second wave that is on their doorstep knocking. Spikes and clusters of local infections are occurring now and they've just had to close over 800 schools that were last week re opened.

 

Lockdowns along with all other measures certainly have there place in my opinion when used appropriately in correct circumstances.

[utalkin2me]

4 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

No words

I am not sure what the problem is. You an I have different opinions. So, what you need to do is follow your own beliefs and sit in your cave for however long you see fit. Further, you don't need to be telling anyone else what to do... whatever you would like to tell others to do, just do that yourself. That is how it works. When you are deathly afraid, you do not get to superimpose your fear onto others. You have to deal with it yourself. If you think what I am doing has some impact on you, you need to sit in your cave even more hardcore... it is your problem to deal with. This is not selfishness, or anything like that, it is just the way one person with one opinion will behave, and the other one will behave the way he sees fit. Neither one is better or worse. 

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

I am not sure what the problem is. You an I have different opinions. So, what you need to do is follow your own beliefs and sit in your cave for however long you see fit. Further, you don't need to be telling anyone else what to do... whatever you would like to tell others to do, just do that yourself. That is how it works. When you are deathly afraid, you do not get to superimpose your fear onto others. You have to deal with it yourself. If you think what I am doing has some impact on you, you need to sit in your cave even more hardcore... it is your problem to deal with. This is not selfishness, or anything like that, it is just the way one person with one opinion will behave, and the other one will behave the way he sees fit. Neither one is better or worse. 

Yea exactly why i did not have a comment to add to your post, thanks for the hypocrisy though, amusing

[nauseus]

20 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

I am not sure what the problem is. You an I have different opinions. So, what you need to do is follow your own beliefs and sit in your cave for however long you see fit. Further, you don't need to be telling anyone else what to do... whatever you would like to tell others to do, just do that yourself. That is how it works. When you are deathly afraid, you do not get to superimpose your fear onto others. You have to deal with it yourself. If you think what I am doing has some impact on you, you need to sit in your cave even more hardcore... it is your problem to deal with. This is not selfishness, or anything like that, it is just the way one person with one opinion will behave, and the other one will behave the way he sees fit. Neither one is better or worse. 

Neither one is better or worse. As long as one of us sits in a cave. Sound like it's you telling him what to do! ????

[utalkin2me]

31 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Neither one is better or worse. As long as one of us sits in a cave. Sound like it's you telling him what to do! ????

It is his choice. If he wises up, he is welcome to come out when he sees fit. 

 

You see how this works yet? People are free to make the correct, or the wrong choices for themselves. 

 

I am really not even quite sure what your point is, there does not seem to be one except for proving to purposefully misunderstand. 

[utalkin2me]

53 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yea exactly why i did not have a comment to add to your post, thanks for the hypocrisy though, amusing

You don't seem to understand why you don't have a comment. 

 

It is because people who believe like you do need to stay at home and cower in fear. Have at it, nobody is stopping you. It is your choice, it is what you think needs to be done, so do it. Very simple. 

 

That is not my choice however. So, you don't have a comment because you do not have a leg to stand on. Simply follow your own beliefs and leave others alone. 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, utalkin2me said:

You don't seem to understand why you don't have a comment. 

 

It is because people who believe like you do need to stay at home and cower in fear. Have at it, nobody is stopping you. It is your choice, it is what you think needs to be done, so do it. Very simple. 

 

That is not my choice however. So, you don't have a comment because you do not have a leg to stand on. Simply follow your own beliefs and leave others alone. 

If you're waiting for me to care what you're saying it's going to be a while.

[nauseus]

28 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

It is his choice. If he wises up, he is welcome to come out when he sees fit. 

 

You see how this works yet? People are free to make the correct, or the wrong choices for themselves. 

 

I am really not even quite sure what your point is, there does not seem to be one except for proving to purposefully misunderstand. 

 I am really quite sure what my point is.  I am also really quite sure that you miss what my point is.   

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Neither one is better or worse. As long as one of us sits in a cave. Sound like it's you telling him what to do! ????

That's not what he said. Did you read it properly? He said if someone wants to lockdown by all means do so but don't tell everyone else to do so. I agree. Those afraid of Corona can hide, but that's their choice. Some of us ain't afraid to go out and carry on as normal.

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's not what he said. Did you read it properly? He said if someone wants to lockdown by all means do so but don't tell everyone else to do so. I agree. Those afraid of Corona can hide, but that's their choice. Some of us ain't afraid to go out and carry on as normal.

Did you read properly, he never told anyone to lockdown.................see below

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Neither one is better or worse. As long as one of us sits in a cave. Sound like it's you telling him what to do! ????

 

[mauGR1]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's not what he said. Did you read it properly? He said if someone wants to lockdown by all means do so but don't tell everyone else to do so. I agree. Those afraid of Corona can hide, but that's their choice. Some of us ain't afraid to go out and carry on as normal.

Some people are so miserable that they want everybody else to feel the same way.

[Bkk Brian]

11 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

Some people are so miserable that they want everybody else to feel the same way.

Can you point me in the direction of these people that have projected their misery.

[mauGR1]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Can you point me in the direction of these people that have projected their misery.

LOL as they say, condemn the sin, and not tell the names.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

LOL as they say, condemn the sin, and not tell the names.

No problem, I was just going to call for a round of group hugs

[simple1]

45 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Some of us ain't afraid to go out and carry on as normal.

As i recall you live in a small town in NZ so likely minimal risk. However, did you ignore the advisories from government which successfully mitigated the spread of Covid in NZ, what did the locals say who disagreed with your actions?

Edited May 29, 2020 by simple1

[Bkk Brian]

Just been reported on the BBC, Laura Bicker, that all South Korean residents have been told to stay indoors this weekend.

[chessman]

16 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

A single country showing a drop of new cases without having had lockdowns is enough to prove that lockdowns are not required.

Of all the ridiculous statements made on this thread, this is perhaps the most ridiculous.

 

One might as well argue that Somalia is a richer country than Switzerland and when questioned state that if I can find one Somali richer than a Swiss person it will prove my point.

 

it is the logic of the illogical.