London's statues from 'bygone' imperial past to be reviewed, mayor says

[Airbagwill]

Another racist argument, or rather non argument, that repeatedly appears here is "Some of them are racists too"

 

As if the sins of one can justify or mitigate the sins of another

 

 

[evadgib]

Just now, Airbagwill said:

Ah Godwins Law...you have become a philosophers' joke!

If you're on about the bloke who had his eye out I covered him yesterday ????

[Airbagwill]

49 minutes ago, Justgrazing said:

Who was responsible for the greatest genocide ever in which millions were murdered in the most barbaric ways imaginable in little more than 5 yrs because they did not meet the preferred Nazi racial profile .? 

 

Churchill was not perfect .. He was a product of the Victorian era where you served the Empire and were proud to do so .. It is reflective of the world we live in where the focus now falls on his earlier life and decisions made then rather than the one of him stepping upto the plate to take on one of the most evil individuals to walk this earth , whose army had the rest of Europe subjugated and were massing just the other side of the channel with Britain next .. What would have happened without Churchill having the balls to tell Herr Hitler what would happen to them if they dared try invading with the " fighting on the beaches " speech ..

Those were the darkest clouds over Europe with Britain left as the last free country .. It required quite exceptional leadership to lead us out of it without falling as the rest had and Churchill was that leader .. 

 

So sad to see such an ignorant interpretation of relatively recent history. What hope is there for  a society that is so ill informed?

[Airbagwill]

4 minutes ago, evadgib said:

If you're on about the bloke who had his eye out I covered him yesterday ????

QED    

[Rimmer]

Some off topic and replies removed

[baansgr]

34 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Here's a bit more history...however guess it's just pearl before swine in some cases..... it seems facts are of no interest to the racist far right...

 

https://theconversation.com/edward-colston-statue-toppled-how-bristol-came-to-see-the-slave-trader-as-a-hero-and-philanthropist-140271?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=bylinefacebookbutton&fbclid=IwAR1Jqp1SwXb59J2eMuJo2BcldndY_QwAYGQfi-nE-duB8ZeRX8_juoK32Cc

 

PS have you noticed how racists are always arguing that something isn't racist??

 

I stopped reading this when they said the statue was erected 170 years ago...can't even get that simple fact right..

[Leo Vin]

The world has gone mad, The only reason these people have the freedom to spread toxic spew is because of our history, sure not all history is perfect however its history and that's what it is history and cannot be eradicated the past has now enabled people to move on further, so to try and eradicate our U.K history for peoples insecurities is nonsense, the damage to Churchills statue caused by uneducated lefty lunatics will never be acceptable after all the man was the catalyst to save the free world from the greatest racist ever, Hitler, people need to educated on the true history of our great nation, they are not protesting racism they acting out tribalism and the freedom we all have is through our history, the past is the past embrace the opportunity and freedom you have in the present.         

[dunroaming]

20 hours ago, Calach said:

If you start combing history and national memory out of all figures whose behaviours and ideas would be unacceptable today you set yourself for quite an endeavour. Even if we think it's justified for this Edward Colston, you'll see it's never going to be enough. 

 

Even Churchill statues will be toppled, for reasons as good as this one. 

 

For all the (sometimes infuriating) conservatism and immobility in my country, I'm glad that kind of silly historic cleansing hasn't caught up with us yet. 

We should never forget the past but these statues are put up as figures to "honour".  What I would like to see is the controversial figures taken down and then re-installed in a museum of slavery.  It would illustrate that we did indeed consider these people to be looked up to but now realise that actually they are figures of shame. 

 

It would also be an opportunity to expose the reality of slavery in all it's sordid horror.  For too long it has been glossed over and a permanent acknowledgement of how vile the slave trade was and those responsible for it.

[Chomper Higgot]

27 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

We should never forget the past but these statues are put up as figures to "honour".  What I would like to see is the controversial figures taken down and then re-installed in a museum of slavery.  It would illustrate that we did indeed consider these people to be looked up to but now realise that actually they are figures of shame. 

 

It would also be an opportunity to expose the reality of slavery in all it's sordid horror.  For too long it has been glossed over and a permanent acknowledgement of how vile the slave trade was and those responsible for it.

Liverpool’s International Slavery Museum is an example of what can be done.

 

And how about honoring those who fought slavery, not just the well known names, but ordinary people like the Manchester Mill Workers who refused to work with cotton shipped from America’s confederate states.

 

There are plenty of fine examples of the very best of British history to put up statues to.

 

[Baerboxer]

20 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’m sure the UK can find better people to celebrate than slave traders.

 

Quite probably.

 

When is Belgium going to stop celebrating Leopold, the one who enslaved and butchered a nation of Africans for personal profit?

[Baerboxer]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Liverpool’s International Slavery Museum is an example of what can be done.

 

And how about honoring those who fought slavery, not just the well known names, but ordinary people like the Manchester Mill Workers who refused to work with cotton shipped from America’s confederate states.

 

There are plenty of fine examples of the very best of British history to put up statues to.

 

 

Were there similar examples to be found in Belgium? Museums to the incredible and sickening brutality, mutilations of men, women and children and murder carried out when the monarch of the time privately owned the Congo? Anyone refuse to work with the rubber?

[Baerboxer]

46 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Erecting a statue of a slave trader and sticking a plaque on it describing him as a great man is sanitizing history.

 

Agree with that. And NOT just in the UK.

[vogie]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

As I said yesterday, the teaching of Britain’s  Colonial history is abysmally poor. 

And when we don't know how good or bad your country is I find it very desrespectful for you to keep berating the UK. We get it, you don't like the UK, is your country so brilliant it gives you carte blanche to keep having a pop at us, please give it a rest.

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, Justgrazing said:

Who was responsible for the greatest genocide ever in which millions were murdered in the most barbaric ways imaginable in little more than 5 yrs because they did not meet the preferred Nazi racial profile .? 

 

Churchill was not perfect .. He was a product of the Victorian era where you served the Empire and were proud to do so .. It is reflective of the world we live in where the focus now falls on his earlier life and decisions made then rather than the one of him stepping upto the plate to take on one of the most evil individuals to walk this earth , whose army had the rest of Europe subjugated and were massing just the other side of the channel with Britain next .. What would have happened without Churchill having the balls to tell Herr Hitler what would happen to them if they dared try invading with the " fighting on the beaches " speech ..

Those were the darkest clouds over Europe with Britain left as the last free country .. It required quite exceptional leadership to lead us out of it without falling as the rest had and Churchill was that leader .. 

 

I get what you are saying, and yes he did what you are saying, but he took ex soldiers and ex prisoners and sent them to Ireland where the burned men, women, and children out of their homes, that was the Black and Tans, look at the genocide he was responsible for in India and other countries under the British Empire.

Why do you think he lost the first general election after the war?

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Leo Vin said:

The world has gone mad, The only reason these people have the freedom to spread toxic spew is because of our history, sure not all history is perfect however its history and that's what it is history and cannot be eradicated the past has now enabled people to move on further, so to try and eradicate our U.K history for peoples insecurities is nonsense, the damage to Churchills statue caused by uneducated lefty lunatics will never be acceptable after all the man was the catalyst to save the free world from the greatest racist ever, Hitler, people need to educated on the true history of our great nation, they are not protesting racism they acting out tribalism and the freedom we all have is through our history, the past is the past embrace the opportunity and freedom you have in the present.         

Nobody is proposing to eradicate history.

 

The history of the Baptist war that lead to Parliament passing the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833 is particularly pertinent:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_War

 

Perhaps a statue of Sam Sharpe is order.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

13 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Quite probably.

 

When is Belgium going to stop celebrating Leopold, the one who enslaved and butchered a nation of Africans for personal profit?

But but but .... Belgium.

[NoshowJones]

2 hours ago, baansgr said:

Which genocides, I'm interested to learn of that

Google it, the history books don't lie.

[evadgib]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Liverpool’s International Slavery Museum is an example of what can be done.

 

And how about honoring those who fought slavery, not just the well known names, but ordinary people like the Manchester Mill Workers who refused to work with cotton shipped from America’s confederate states.

 

There are plenty of fine examples of the very best of British history to put up statues to.

 

Several Statues of King Leopold II have been removed in Belgium (along with the odd TV, Settee or off licence!). As he was related to proper Royalty I wonder if they'll do a swap for the statue of Edward Colston our louts lobbed into the Avon?

[Baerboxer]

The British Government recently beefed up it's anti slavery laws and appointed a new head of the department responsible for enforcing them. They, yes a Conservative government, are fed up with businesses paying lip service, and in many cases not very much lip service, to anti Modern Day Slavery legislation and requirements.

But the media aren't interested in that.

 

Better to jump on the bandwagon of the left. Focus on events that happened hundreds of years ago and say that excuses illegal behavior today.

 

This is no more about slavery than it is about BLM, the unlawful and dubious killings of a whole string of people by American police officers, in America, or about anything positive.

 

It's about the politically correct left, and an arrogant obnoxious immigrant's son with a chip on his shoulder, using events and circumstances to push more of their politically correct views and visions of society on the British people. How dare these arrogant ba$$ards appoint themselves to decide on such changes. They are totally transparent and insincere. 

 

Khan and his loony cronies know that this will increase division, cause resentment and reaction and stir things up. Which is what they want. Create confusion and hate, divide and conquer. 

 

Despicable dictatorial attitude.

[evadgib]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Nobody is proposing to irradiate history.

 

The history of the Baptist war that lead to Parliament passing the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833 is particularly pertinent:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_War

 

Perhaps a statue of Sam Sharpe is order.

 

 

Yep, especially as it appears he must have been a fan of Churchill..

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Several Statues of King Leopold II have been removed in Belgium (along with the odd TV, Settee or off licence!). As he was related to proper Royalty I wonder if they'll do a swap for the statue of Edward Colston our louts lobbed into the Avon?

I have no idea, have you asked them?

[Baerboxer]

16 minutes ago, vogie said:

And when we don't know how good or bad your country is I find it very desrespectful for you to keep berating the UK. We get it, you don't like the UK, is your country so brilliant it gives you carte blanche to keep having a pop at us, please give it a rest.

 

Interesting comment. Whilst a tad off-topic, it is relevant to this topic at the macro level.

 

I was based in the Netherlands for a time. Dutch TV did some excellent documentaries. One was all about the Belgian Congo and how ruthlessly the enslaved people were treated. Rubber workers would loose a hand for failing to meet targets; or their children would loose a hand or foot; or their wife. These off-cuts would be smoked to preserve them at taken back to head office as proof. In 10 years the population was halved.

 

Obviously people talked about that at work the next day. It was harrowing stuff. What surprised me is my Dutch colleagues told me the whole topic was simply ignored in neighboring Belgium!

 

 

[Brigand]

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right." (George Orwell)

 

Starting to look a little like this these days.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Brigand

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, Justgrazing said:

Who was responsible for the greatest genocide ever in which millions were murdered in the most barbaric ways imaginable in little more than 5 yrs because they did not meet the preferred Nazi racial profile .? 

 

Churchill was not perfect .. He was a product of the Victorian era where you served the Empire and were proud to do so .. It is reflective of the world we live in where the focus now falls on his earlier life and decisions made then rather than the one of him stepping upto the plate to take on one of the most evil individuals to walk this earth , whose army had the rest of Europe subjugated and were massing just the other side of the channel with Britain next .. What would have happened without Churchill having the balls to tell Herr Hitler what would happen to them if they dared try invading with the " fighting on the beaches " speech ..

Those were the darkest clouds over Europe with Britain left as the last free country .. It required quite exceptional leadership to lead us out of it without falling as the rest had and Churchill was that leader .. 

 

 

Actually Mao and Stalin killed more, larger genocides, than Hitler.

 

All of course were terrible, disgusting people who viewed humanity with callous hatred. And all committed genocides of appalling natures resulting in several millions of deaths each.

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Of course there are the same kind of statues and location names in Scotland. Its part of the UK remember? However I suspect they will not be around for much longer.

 

 

Aye, they'll all be replaced with statues of Wee Krankie Leader Sturgeon!

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, jayboy said:

“... every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” George Orwell, 1984

 

A small post - but one of the most insightful and intelligent posts I've read in several years. Thank you!

 

I hope it helps open some eyes.

[vogie]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Of course there are the same kind of statues and location names in Scotland. Its part of the UK remember? However I suspect they will not be around for much longer.

 

Better not get rid of Robert the Bruce though, the Nationalists will have no-where to burn the Union flag.????????????

[rvaviator]

8 hours ago, Denim said:

Maybe that's why the comedy series was names ' Little Britain ' , no longer great .

 

It still amazes me that people will risk life and limb in a rubber dingy trying to cross the channel to get there.  Talk about behind the times.

Well maybe they remember the old stories told by there grand parents as kids .. How it was when the place they came from was under law and order .. British law and order ...  ???? During colonial times ... Hence very keen to get to UK ... ????

[Justgrazing]

43 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

I get what you are saying, and yes he did what you are saying, but he took ex soldiers and ex prisoners and sent them to Ireland where the burned men, women, and children out of their homes, that was the Black and Tans, look at the genocide he was responsible for in India and other countries under the British Empire.

Why do you think he lost the first general election after the war?

Oh for sure .. He was not averse to making himself a despised figure in pursuit of what he felt was required and still isn't held in high regard in some parts of the S Wales former coal mining valleys for despatching armed troops there to quell rioting with some extremely violent tactics in 1910 .. Nor did the Channel Islanders who felt he abandoned them to the Nazi invasion hold him close .. 

And the French bitterly resented him for sinking their fleet at Mers-El-Kébir with the loss of hundreds of sailors 2 months after taking office in 1940 ..

And yes within weeks of the end of WW2 he was voted out which in itself is the ultimate irony as had we not won then likely as not the very concept of freedom and democracy would have been removed by Herr Hitler .. 

W C was not without many warts that he himself would not deny and there are many who do not share the view of his greatness because of his treatment or view of them .. I get that but at a time when there was no one else to turn to and the very real threat of freedom and everything that entails being snuffed out within weeks he was the one who ensured we did not give up and ultimately prevail .. 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Justgrazing
Sp

[gunderhill]

17 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

Brits living in Thailand are constantly bashing the country they are living in on TVF. 

Should everyone say nothing but praise?

I haven't noticed them ripping down statues yet in a country where free  speech isn't so free, a  bit  like the UK is  getting to be.