UK beach town raises alarm as huge crowds ignore COVID advice and flock to the coast

[johnpetersen]

5 minutes ago, sukhumvitneon said:

The only entity that deserves blame for all of this is the Chinese and their disgusting eating habits

So the fact that some countries reacted sooner and suffered far less loss of life is no reflection at all on the competence of the UK response? And that if the UK had responded even more inadequately than it did, or even done nothing at all, the blame would still all be on China? 

 

[cooked]

23 hours ago, PremiumLane said:

ahh the old 'herd immunity',... to get this you would have have 50-70% of the world's population getting Covid (based on current research), now think about the death toll that would take. And that is not even factoring in if it will actually work.

 

It is very easy throwing around the phrase 'herd immunity', like it is some magic cure-all. However, if you look at diseases, some only died out because of prevention management and vaccines. Take measles, you need 90% of a population to be immune to stop the spread of it - you going to risk those kinds of numbers? Prepared to sacrifice a lot of people for your famed 'herd immunity'?

ahh, the old low information sneer. It was predicted at the start of this outbreak that 60 - 70% of affected countries would eventually get Covid. It wasn't about death rates, it was about overloading the health services.

Of these 10 % would show symptoms, meaning that many of us will already have become immune. Of these, 10% would require hospitalisation (so we're down to about 1 %) and of these 1 %  would die, mostly older, already ill people. At the moment, the death rate following hospitalisation is at about 0.5% as it has been throughout. A bit more than  MOST flu outbreaks. 

Screw vaccinations, they don't really work for flu, which keeps on mutating as does Covid already, this is part of the magic pill approach to medicine instead of prevention through lifestyle: diet and a little exercise.

Mind you, a chemical that claimed to prevent Covid would be a nice little earner, Bill Gates is working on it.

[Stargeezr]

The Herd immunity is not great if you happen to be one of the herd who is sick and

then dies from the virus. Just think of that for a moment before being all for

that method.  Really, some people have silly thoughts about the virus that has

no cure yet.  I will stay cautious and try my best to stay healthy until I can

get the vaccine.  

Geezer

[Stargeezr]

^{It is not just the UK, as it seems that many places in the world, people go to the beaches and}

^{do not social distance, or do anything to protect themselves against the virus.}

  ^{I have not sympathy for anyone who is so foolish to think, oh it is just like a regular}

^{flu.  Then they get sick, and after visiting their parents, old friends or relatives, etc. When they hear that}

^{the relatives got sick, they deny that they were responsible, so that when the person dies, they}

^{can not be blamed.  The me me me generation,  how great is that.}

^Geezer

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, stevenl said:

In Sweden, not in UK, US.

In the UK, the number of cases has dropped, along with deaths.  Further the hospital death rate has dropped dramatically- by around three quarters.

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

In the UK, the number of cases has dropped, along with deaths.  Further the hospital death rate has dropped dramatically- by around three quarters.

Which is unrelated to my remark regarding the remark on WHO 'misinformation'.

[473geo]

4 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

The Herd immunity is not great if you happen to be one of the herd who is sick and

then dies from the virus. Just think of that for a moment before being all for

that method.  Really, some people have silly thoughts about the virus that has

no cure yet.  I will stay cautious and try my best to stay healthy until I can

get the vaccine.  

Geezer

Your approach is fine, stay away from the herd if you are high risk of damaging infection, do not go to a crowded beach with your zimmer frame.

Not difficult is it? Now you just have learn to stop berating those who can get on with life with minimal risk. Is that also too difficult?

Time to open up in the UK, let covid run while we have the climate to fight it and build resistance/immunity because when winter hits, flu cases are a given, also up to now the world over it would appear most virus second time around are not so damaging. Obviously virus spread through the workforce, concentrated on travel, and in the work place, more readily than the elderly retired, spending more of their time at home. But hey winter is a good time for the elderly to take a breezy stroll along the promenade, if not on the beach pair of roller skates might make it a bit more fun ????

 

Let me tell you about the elderly in he UK, they are creatures of habit, most own cars, many continue to drive to crowded the supermarkets rather than go to the local shops where exposure is a hundred times less likely, most do not wear a mask. They have been visiting any shops that have remained open same as anybody else. After all getting your summer plants for the garden and window boxes is essential!!!

 

My neighbour is classic example 75 years old walks to the local supermarket, just about every day doesn't bother with a mask!! a local shop is closer, but worse she travels on a bus with others into town because she needs to 'get out' and "the virus is no worse than the spanish flu" epidemic she survived years ago!

 

I have no qualms in saying let the young get on with life, and let the elderly look to themselves if they feel the need, or can even be bothered, to protect their own interests

Edited June 27, 2020 by 473geo

[dastakantattaka]

On 6/26/2020 at 3:04 AM, PremiumLane said:

ahh the old 'herd immunity',... to get this you would have have 50-70% of the world's population getting Covid (based on current research), now think about the death toll that would take. And that is not even factoring in if it will actually work.

 

officially, discovered - around 10 mln have been infected already

non-officially - might be 10x-20x = 100 mln which is around 10-20% already

[johnpetersen]

8 minutes ago, dastakantattaka said:

officially, discovered - around 10 mln have been infected already

non-officially - might be 10x-20x = 100 mln which is around 10-20% already

The problem with invoking herd immunity is that it's not just about how many people have been infected but also about how long they remain immune. The shorter the time that is, the less effective herd immunity is. No one knows how long the average term of immunity is for covid19

[mommysboy]

On 6/27/2020 at 3:09 PM, johnpetersen said:

The problem with invoking herd immunity is that it's not just about how many people have been infected but also about how long they remain immune. The shorter the time that is, the less effective herd immunity is. No one knows how long the average term of immunity is for covid19

The trouble with semantic unknowns is people (not you jp) immediately ignore what is already known and most likely, preferring to elevate the least likely as if it were absolute fact.  The general axiom for this type of virus is that having spread through a given population it dies out because there are simply less people to infect.  

 

There is a horrifying twist which could be a remote possibility: namely that failure to either eradicate sufficiently or allow passage through the community, perpetuates the virus to the extent it becomes endemic, at which point there is a further opportunity for this zoonotic virus to pass the species barrier to eventually return in another form.

 

In another world, another time, the ideal solution would have been to stop the virus in its tracks, much in the manner of Thailand, and Vietnam.  Now, for countries such as the UK, eradication can only be achieved through herd immunity.  It would be more fruitful if folk were to sensibly discuss how this is to be done with the least human suffering possible. In any case, persisting with lockdowns/social distancing brings severe economic hardship, which by itself constitutes a health hazard.

 

1. Protect the elderly and vulnerable in hospital and medical facilities, particularly nursing homes.

2. Educate and protect members of multi-generational households.

3. Furlough workers over 60.

4. Apply protection rules to over 60's when out and about, which might include special transport and shopping arrangements, and priority service to minimize duration, and thus possible contact with an infected person. 

5.  Prevent over 60's from attending events that may pose a significant health hazard.

 

 

[mommysboy]

On 6/27/2020 at 9:42 AM, Stargrazer9889 said:

The Herd immunity is not great if you happen to be one of the herd who is sick and

then dies from the virus. Just think of that for a moment before being all for

that method.  Really, some people have silly thoughts about the virus that has

no cure yet.  I will stay cautious and try my best to stay healthy until I can

get the vaccine.  

Geezer

It's horrible of course when someone suffers, even worse if it's a child for instance.  But what's to be done without wrecking the economy? I'm not being a bread head here.  As it is, I can't see anything but a raft of property/inheritance taxes in the UK since long term houseowners and older generations appear to be the only ones with any money.  If we curb public spending even advanced economies risk a substantial decline in the quality of living.  There's very little risk for young people; let them get on with their lives as we've caused them excessive problems already, but of course distance them from people at risk.

[Synaxarion]

Don't tell me UK will be the next US, I just can't imagine how their brain works.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/26/2020 at 3:29 PM, stephenterry said:

You do realise that following your death path to herd immunity, global economies would be decimated owing to lack of working populations... 

There is no simple answer, albeit world governments could experiment by dismantling the world we know today, with globally sealed country borders. That's containment resolved.  

SERIOUSLY?

The highest rate of death from corona that I can find is about 23% in China at the height of the crisis. It's much lower elsewhere at present.

Even at 20% ( and of course most deaths are of old people not working any more ) that means 80 out of 100 workers will still be working. More likely around 95 out of 100 workers will still be available to work.

Given that most western countries have about 5% or higher unemployment that means no problem at all of having enough workers.

 

What is decimating economies is the the lockdowns.

 

Sealed borders? Does that include trade? Given western countries don't make much anymore, that would be a bit hard to survive.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, mommysboy said:

The trouble with semantic unknowns is people (not you jp) immediately ignore what is already known and most likely, preferring to elevate the least likely as if it were absolute fact.  The general axiom for this type of virus is that having spread through a given population it dies out because there are simply less people to infect.  

 

There is a horrifying twist which could be a remote possibility: namely that failure to either eradicate sufficiently or allow passage through the community, perpetuates the virus to the extent it becomes endemic, at which point there is a further opportunity for this zoonotic virus to pass the species barrier to eventually return in another form.

 

In another world, another time, the ideal solution would have been to stop the virus in its tracks, much in the manner of Thailand, and Vietnam.  Now, for countries such as the UK, eradication can only be achieved through herd immunity.  It would be more fruitful if folk were to sensibly discuss how this is to be done with the least human suffering possible. In any case, persisting with lockdowns/social distancing brings severe economic hardship, which by itself constitutes a health hazard.

 

1. Protect the elderly and vulnerable in hospital and medical facilities, particularly nursing homes.

2. Educate and protect members of multi-generational households.

3. Furlough workers over 60.

4. Apply protection rules to over 60's when out and about, which might include special transport and shopping arrangements, and priority service to minimize duration, and thus possible contact with an infected person. 

5.  Prevent over 60's from attending events that may pose a significant health hazard.

 

 

Who said 60 was the magic age? Those with existing health conditions die- the ones going to die anyway in the next few years. Healthy people don't die of it.

So, stop talking about over 60 as though we are all decrepit and non people.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/27/2020 at 2:42 PM, Stargrazer9889 said:

The Herd immunity is not great if you happen to be one of the herd who is sick and

then dies from the virus. Just think of that for a moment before being all for

that method.  Really, some people have silly thoughts about the virus that has

no cure yet.  I will stay cautious and try my best to stay healthy until I can

get the vaccine.  

Geezer

There are several corona viruses in existence- how many vaccines for them? I take it you'll be staying cautious for a very long time.

I'm going to get on with my life as no one said I had an allocated number of years to live and I've almost died so many times I should have ended decades ago. It's just by chance that I'm still here, just as for everyone else living. No guarantees given at birth of a long life.

[stephenterry]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What is decimating economies is the the lockdowns.

 

I get this, but we are talking about human beings, some of which are family members of all ages. If you downgrade modern society economics back in time, people have survived for eons on basic needs being satisfied - and indeed in some poorest countries that's all the people require to be happy and content with their lives.

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, stephenterry said:

I get this, but we are talking about human beings, some of which are family members of all ages. If you downgrade modern society economics back in time, people have survived for eons on basic needs being satisfied - and indeed in some poorest countries that's all the people require to be happy and content with their lives.

 

 

 

 

I don't understand your point. Perhaps you can expand a bit.

 

However, we have created a generation that could not survive without a smartphone. I grew up in an age when a valve radio was as high tech as it got. Ironically, in a world in depression ( as they say is coming ) the poorest will survive and the rich, IMO, will not ( the uber rich will survive of course, but I refer only to the upper middle class that live in the digital age and have zero survival skills ).

[stephenterry]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I don't understand your point. Perhaps you can expand a bit.

 

However, we have created a generation that could not survive without a smartphone. I grew up in an age when a valve radio was as high tech as it got. Ironically, in a world in depression ( as they say is coming ) the poorest will survive and the rich, IMO, will not ( the uber rich will survive of course, but I refer only to the upper middle class that live in the digital age and have zero survival skills ).

What matters is if you consider human lives to be more or less important than economic benefits of a modern society. We can all survive, probably quite reasonably in many cases, but of course with limited or reduced lifestyles.

 

What brought it home to me was the absence of watching live sporting events for a couple of months; previously contributing to the cost of grossly overpaid players for a couple of hours entertainment live or on TV streaming. Nowadays, I couldn't care less - I make my own entertainment at my own minimal cost, and my directional changed lifestyle is good enough for me. 

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

What matters is if you consider human lives to be more or less important than economic benefits of a modern society. We can all survive, probably quite reasonably in many cases, but of course with limited or reduced lifestyles.

 

What brought it home to me was the absence of watching live sporting events for a couple of months; previously contributing to the cost of grossly overpaid players for a couple of hours entertainment live or on TV streaming. Nowadays, I couldn't care less - I make my own entertainment at my own minimal cost, and my directional changed lifestyle is good enough for me. 

Thanks.

Modern society is too overpopulated to survive without industrial farming. Not possible for everyone to go off and grow own food now, even if they could, which they can't.

IMO we can't all survive without all the trapping's of modern life. Just getting food into a city of millions is a mammoth task that most of us never see or know about. Sewage, hospitals, etc need thousands of skilled workers  that most of us never know about.

I fail to see how a family that lives in a highrise flat in city central and hasn't any idea how to grow food, or raise livestock ( most have no idea how milk gets to them ) can live a limited lifestyle, and frankly I have no idea of what that would look like in reality. Consultants and lifestyle advisors will not be required during a depression.

[stephenterry]

55 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Thanks.

Modern society is too overpopulated to survive without industrial farming. Not possible for everyone to go off and grow own food now, even if they could, which they can't.

IMO we can't all survive without all the trapping's of modern life. Just getting food into a city of millions is a mammoth task that most of us never see or know about. Sewage, hospitals, etc need thousands of skilled workers  that most of us never know about.

I fail to see how a family that lives in a highrise flat in city central and hasn't any idea how to grow food, or raise livestock ( most have no idea how milk gets to them ) can live a limited lifestyle, and frankly I have no idea of what that would look like in reality. Consultants and lifestyle advisors will not be required during a depression.

You're welcome. During the last 10 years of my working life, I visited over 40 countries, some more than once, as an INGO auditor. All of these countries - in modern terms - were (relatively) poor, as were the people. All nature could throw at the population never dulled the human spirit -people just got on with their lives. Aftermaths of Tsunami, earthquakes, hurricanes etc. were overcome because people had to get off their backsides and rebuild. 

 

In Goma, DRC, near the Ruanda border, a small supermarket managed to obtain weekly supplies including milk and other basic foods. Outside, small children lined up to take polystyrene boxes from (INGO) customers. They ate the polystyrene to survive.

 

A small impoverished boy in Bangladesh lined up with his empty coconut shell to receive an apple and Pringles! from the INGOs. Food supplies carried on wherever I travelled to - Coca Cola fridges were in most local communities - albeit we had to wait for any restocking, and it was very hit and miss what we got.   

 

That's reality.

 

 

   

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, stephenterry said:

You're welcome. During the last 10 years of my working life, I visited over 40 countries, some more than once, as an INGO auditor. All of these countries - in modern terms - were (relatively) poor, as were the people. All nature could throw at the population never dulled the human spirit -people just got on with their lives. Aftermaths of Tsunami, earthquakes, hurricanes etc. were overcome because people had to get off their backsides and rebuild. 

 

In Goma, DRC, near the Ruanda border, a small supermarket managed to obtain weekly supplies including milk and other basic foods. Outside, small children lined up to take polystyrene boxes from (INGO) customers. They ate the polystyrene to survive.

 

A small impoverished boy in Bangladesh lined up with his empty coconut shell to receive an apple and Pringles! from the INGOs. Food supplies carried on wherever I travelled to - Coca Cola fridges were in most local communities - albeit we had to wait for any restocking, and it was very hit and miss what we got.   

 

That's reality.

 

 

   

 

 

I just had an image of a line of western princes and princesses lined up to get polystyrene boxes to eat while staring at their blank smartphone screens and tapping at the keys trying to make them work.

[mommysboy]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Who said 60 was the magic age? Those with existing health conditions die- the ones going to die anyway in the next few years. Healthy people don't die of it.

So, stop talking about over 60 as though we are all decrepit and non people.

I am about to hit the 60 soon, and am just about fit and healthy, yet I am aware of my greater fragility.  The point is over 60's, particularly males, are at the highest risk of developing the severest form of infection that we all fear.  When you mention 'old' and 'decrepit' that is your inference and nothing I wished to imply. My argument is that young people who are not vulnerable offer the quickest route to herd immunity at very little, if any, loss of life, whilst conferring a high degree of protection for others too. In order for this to happen there needs to be segregation.  I suppose protection means limiting freedom.  But what else do you suggest?

 

In any case, I doubt there were many over 40's down Bournemouth beach that day, and if there were they need their brains tested.

Edited June 29, 2020 by mommysboy

[johnpetersen]

14 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Thanks.

Modern society is too overpopulated to survive without industrial farming. Not possible for everyone to go off and grow own food now, even if they could, which they can't.

IMO we can't all survive without all the trapping's of modern life. Just getting food into a city of millions is a mammoth task that most of us never see or know about. Sewage, hospitals, etc need thousands of skilled workers  that most of us never know about.

I fail to see how a family that lives in a highrise flat in city central and hasn't any idea how to grow food, or raise livestock ( most have no idea how milk gets to them ) can live a limited lifestyle, and frankly I have no idea of what that would look like in reality. Consultants and lifestyle advisors will not be required during a depression.

There are countries all over the world where large numbers of people live in cities, haven't a clue as how to milk a cow, and enjoy a much lower standard of living than those of the highly developed economies in the West. So stop worrying.

Edited June 29, 2020 by johnpetersen

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I am about to hit the 60 soon, and am just about fit and healthy, yet I am aware of my greater fragility.  The point is over 60's, particularly males, are at the highest risk of developing the severest form of infection that we all fear.  When you mention 'old' and 'decrepit' that is your inference and nothing I wished to imply. My argument is that young people who are not vulnerable offer the quickest route to herd immunity at very little, if any, loss of life, whilst conferring a high degree of protection for others too. In order for this to happen there needs to be segregation.  I suppose protection means limiting freedom.  But what else do you suggest?

 

In any case, I doubt there were many over 40's down Bournemouth beach that day, and if there were they need their brains tested.

We all die. It's our choice if we "live" during the time we exist on this planet, or hide away in fear of "what might happen".

Personally I'm for "living".

The government doesn't think 60 is at risk when it comes to giving out the pension and that age is rising.

I didn't notice any difference in my abilities till I reached 70, and I can still shovel a few tons of dirt, so not ready for the knackers just yet.

 

The point is over 60's, particularly males, are at the highest risk of developing the severest form of infection that we all fear.

No idea what that is. I had cancer already and can't imagine anything worse than that.

 

But what else do you suggest?

I've said it many times on TVF- implement 1918 policies and get on with living. Life is too short to be voluntarily putting ourselves into poverty, which will destroy far more young lives than corona.