UK ready to quit EU on 'Australia terms' if no Brexit deal, Johnson says

[izod10]

12 minutes ago, david555 said:

 (Even Boris is not ready , and not start controls.... the E.U. seems  starting 1 Jan.2021 )

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/07/eu-ready-full-brexit-border-checks-next-year-barnier-claims/

EU 'ready' for full Brexit border checks next year, Barnier claims 
Michel Barnier said there would be customs controls from January 1, even though the UK won't be ready for full border checks until July 

By James Crisp, 
Brussels Correspondent 
7 July 2020 • 11:10am 

 

The European Union will introduce full border checks with the UK on January 1, despite Britain introducing customs controls on EU goods more slowly and whether or not the two sides agree a trade deal.

Michel Barnier warned a House of Lords Committee that Brussels “will not delay things”, despite a Government U-Turn, which meant full controls on imports to the UK not being imposed for another six months after the EU. 

The UK announced a gradual three phased implementation of border checks in June after previously insisting that checks would be inevitable. Full border checks will now only apply on EU goods entering the UK from July 2021.  

 

more...

 

So what?  again so what?   For years the same tune  "it will never happen"   well here it is  lol    Belgium,Holland france Spain   Riots galore.   Not a question of being ready  ports in EU will be blockaded,  now the trading overseer will be highly impressed  will impose sanctions   All good fun

[herfiehandbag]

11 minutes ago, david555 said:

 (Even Boris is not ready , and not start controls.... the E.U. seems  starting 1 Jan.2021 )

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/07/eu-ready-full-brexit-border-checks-next-year-barnier-claims/

EU 'ready' for full Brexit border checks next year, Barnier claims 
Michel Barnier said there would be customs controls from January 1, even though the UK won't be ready for full border checks until July 

By James Crisp, 
Brussels Correspondent 
7 July 2020 • 11:10am 

 

The European Union will introduce full border checks with the UK on January 1, despite Britain introducing customs controls on EU goods more slowly and whether or not the two sides agree a trade deal.

Michel Barnier warned a House of Lords Committee that Brussels “will not delay things”, despite a Government U-Turn, which meant full controls on imports to the UK not being imposed for another six months after the EU. 

The UK announced a gradual three phased implementation of border checks in June after previously insisting that checks would be inevitable. Full border checks will now only apply on EU goods entering the UK from July 2021.  

 

more...

 

Well, no surprise there! Barnier is a French "Gaullist" politician, now translated (seemlessly and without the inconvenience of having to stand for election) to a key post as a "fonctionnaire" in the EU hegomony. Frankly no matter what the UK may suggest or propose, this was always going to happen, shafting "Les Anglo Saxons" is in his political genes!

[nauseus]

51 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Thanks for the article. But I don't see where this supports your statement. The economists cited like to deny the undervaluation.

 

Laurence Kotlikoff 

"So if any of these regions has spent the last decade trying devalue and, thus, manipulate its currency to make its goods cheap, it’s the US."

 

Matthew Klein 

"Germany, China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Singapore. Among them, American negotiators should focus the bulk of their energy on the euro area and on its recent current account surplus."

According to Trump, these are all currency manipulators. Funny the countries where the US has trade surpluses are of course not manipulators.

 

Frances Coppola

"Moreover, he ( Navarro) is the one who is de facto demanding currency manipulation, as what he wants is for the Euro to be artificially maintained far above its market level to benefit the US at the expense of Germany."

 

Jeromin Zettelmeyer

"and by extension, that trade imbalances are a manifestation of “currency manipulation.” Second, that Germany’s euro membership, as a policy choice that keeps Germany’s exchange rate undervalued, is an act of currency manipulation. Both these assertions are incorrect."

 

Paul Krugman 

"But this does does not necessarily mean that the euro as a whole is undervalued against the dollar."

Like a piece of flotsam....adrift at the will of ocean currents....unable to self-navigate back to topic.

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

And German manufacturers will never make cars as low in defects as the Japanese.

Overall Dependability Rises in Germany but Buyers of German Brands Less Satisfied, J.D. Power Finds

“Vehicle buyers in Germany appear to be particularly loyal to German premium marques, but this will not last if the product experience does not hold up to the initial delight at the time of purchase,” said Josh Halliburton, Head of European Operations at J.D. Power. “Volvo—the leading premium marque—and most major volume brands rank well above the German brands. Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz need to improve the reliability and robustness of the premium features and materials before customers look elsewhere.”

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2019-germany-vehicle-dependability-study

 

It's true that the Mercs and Bimmers have had increasing numbers of poor reliability reviews in recent years. I'm just happy I have an old banger!

Edited July 8, 2020 by nauseus

[david555]

8 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Well, no surprise there! Barnier is a French "Gaullist" politician, now translated (seemlessly and without the inconvenience of having to stand for election) to a key post as a "fonctionnaire" in the EU hegomony. Frankly no matter what the UK may suggest or propose, this was always going to happen, shafting "Les Anglo Saxons" is in his political genes!

 

He is right all the way , as with "a third country , non Schengen country  " there is no other option 

Edited July 8, 2020 by david555

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Well, no surprise there! Barnier is a French "Gaullist" politician, now translated (seemlessly and without the inconvenience of having to stand for election) to a key post as a "fonctionnaire" in the EU hegomony. Frankly no matter what the UK may suggest or propose, this was always going to happen, shafting "Les Anglo Saxons" is in his political genes!

Sounds disgusting! But I agree!

 

Maybe he should take his genes off first?

[johnpetersen]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Like a piece of flotsam....adrift at the will of ocean currents....unable to self-navigate back to topic.

This has nothing to do with the internal situation in the Eurozone in respect to the advantages the Euro gives germany over members with weak economies.

[johnpetersen]

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Like a piece of flotsam....adrift at the will of ocean currents....unable to self-navigate back to topic.

Here's the relevant portion of Krugman's comment:

Paul Krugman argues that Navarro is right and wrong at the same time. Germany in effect has an undervalued currency relative to what it would have without the euro, against its neighbors. This is the result of a large real depreciation during the euro’s good years, which has only been partly reversed, because wages are downward sticky, and Germany has refused to support the kind of monetary and fiscal stimulus that would raise overall euro area inflation, which remains stuck at far too low a level.

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

This has nothing to do with the internal situation in the Eurozone in respect to the advantages the Euro gives germany over members with weak economies.

I thinks that's what I was trying to say.

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Here's the relevant portion of Krugman's comment:

Paul Krugman argues that Navarro is right and wrong at the same time. Germany in effect has an undervalued currency relative to what it would have without the euro, against its neighbors. This is the result of a large real depreciation during the euro’s good years, which has only been partly reversed, because wages are downward sticky, and Germany has refused to support the kind of monetary and fiscal stimulus that would raise overall euro area inflation, which remains stuck at far too low a level.

I'll drink to that. 

[Logosone]

46 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

Yes. Now Adidas is playing catchup.

As for Leica, you've got to be kidding.

Late to Digital, Leica Slow to Refocus

German Camera Pioneer Fired American CEO Who Pressed for Filmless Future
OLMS, Germany -- Leica Camera AG's employment dispute with fired Chief Executive Steven Lee brings to light the venerable German company's troubles moving into the digital age.
The quirky company, which helped create modern photography in the early 20th century, stuck too long with film technology and now faces mounting losses and sinking sales.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB122152103387739231

And in size, Leica is now a blip compared to its Japanese competitors.

 

As for Porsche and other German manufacturers of EV's You don't get it. Tesla built EV's from the ground up. They are an integrated system. Not so German EVs. Here's a report from a German EV engineer:

German Automaker Paradigms

“German engineering” has had a top-notch reputation for good reason for a long time, and it’s a reputation well deserved. The question I have is, how is it possible that this experienced industry that has dominated important segments of the auto market for such a long time, with all its resources, could fail so miserably in developing competitive fully electric vehicles (BEVs)?

In various articles, I tried to explain my version of the truth by discussing technology, economics, disruption, culture, people, innovation, and change, but today I want to give you the opportunity to listen to what some of the senior German automotive executives and managers told me face to face about BEVs.

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/06/06/german-automaker-paradigms/

ANd there's this

Germany’s falling behind on tech, and Merkel knows it

Party politics and cultural inertia bedevil efforts to shift into high gear on artificial intelligence.

One of the first things Angela Merkel told a group of experts in artificial intelligence during a closed-door meeting in late May was that they should be frank with her.

“I’m used to bad news,” Merkel said, according to a participant's recollection.

https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-falling-behind-china-on-tech-innovation-artificial-intelligence-angela-merkel-knows-it/

 

But hey, Germany is winning the dishwasher, oven, and drier competition. And that's where the future of cutting-edge technology lies.

 

Granted Vaporfly has been a nugget, but you can hardly buy it anywhere.

 

At the head of your article about Leica it says "Updated Sept. 16, 2008". I think you'll find that since 2014 Leica has been doing spectacularly well:

 

"...in June last year, it announced that sales had increased for the fifth consecutive year. "

https://fstoppers.com/business/why-leica-shedding-staff-when-its-profits-are-increasing-382229

 

On electric vehicles, again with the Porsche Taycan German automakers have set the standard. No electric car comes close to the Porsche Taycan. BMW also has some good offerings. Audi's E-Tron and Daimler's Mercedes EQC are all better than anything from Tesla. Indeed VW has just built an entire factory for electric vehicles. Yes, Germany was slow to enter the electric vehicle arena, but they will outperform Tesla in every way. As they are already doing.

 

Tesla of course piggy-backed of German manufacturing expertise, in 2016 they bought the German Grohman Engineering GmbH. Tesla to this day has never turned a profit and carries a mountain of debt. I'm not even sure Tesla will survive. It's cars have terrible reviews as well.

 

Thanks for that very interesting Politico article on AI. I quote:

 

"When it comes to how to economically use company data, process data and product data from complex supply chains ... which is proportionally a much bigger market, the competition is only just starting," the mid-July draft states.

Wolfgang Wahlster, the director and CEO of the German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence (DFKI), said he believes Germany is already "ahead by two to three years to our global competitors in that field."

 

So in some areas Germany is ahead of the competition but in other there is room for increased investment. Good to see Berlin addressing this issue at least Merkel is doing something right. But yes, we are behind China, Japan and the US in AI.

 

In Industrial Robotics however German is a world leader and with KUKA has a company in the top ten of the World's top industrial robot manufacturers. Also only one US company in the top ten. Most are Japanese.

 

https://www.marketresearchreports.com/blog/2019/05/08/world’s-top-10-industrial-robot-manufacturers

 

As for dishwashers and ovens what Miele is doing in that area is simply astounding. They have developed a way of cooking food from with in. So they demonstrated how to cook fish on a bed of ice in an oven, without the ice melting, but the fish was cooked. Simply scientific witchcraft. It was truly astounding. Miele are so far ahead of the competition in ovens, hobs, dishwashers, washing machines and dryers that it's almost embarassing.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Logosone

[izod10]

14 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Granted Vaporfly has been a nugget, but you can hardly buy it anywhere.

 

At the head of your article about Leica it says "Updated Sept. 16, 2008". I think you'll find that since 2014 Leica has been doing spectacularly well:

 

"...in June last year, it announced that sales had increased for the fifth consecutive year. "

https://fstoppers.com/business/why-leica-shedding-staff-when-its-profits-are-increasing-382229

 

On electric vehicles, again with the Porsche Taycan German automakers have set the standard. No electric car comes close to the Porsche Taycan. BMW also has some good offerings. Audi's E-Tron and Daimler's Mercedes EQC are all better than anything from Tesla. Indeed VW has just built an entire factory for electric vehicles. Yes, Germany was slow to enter the electric vehicle arena, but they will outperform Tesla in every way. As they are already doing.

 

Tesla of course piggy-backed of German manufacturing expertise, in 2016 they bought the German Grohman Engineering GmbH. Tesla to this day has never turned a profit and carries a mountain of debt. I'm not even sure Tesla will survive. It's cars have terrible reviews as well.

 

Thanks for that very interesting Politico article on AI. I quote:

 

"When it comes to how to economically use company data, process data and product data from complex supply chains ... which is proportionally a much bigger market, the competition is only just starting," the mid-July draft states.

Wolfgang Wahlster, the director and CEO of the German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence (DFKI), said he believes Germany is already "ahead by two to three years to our global competitors in that field."

 

So in some areas Germany is ahead of the competition but in other there is room for increased investment. Good to see Berlin addressing this issue at least Merkel is doing something right. But yes, we are behind China, Japan and the US in AI.

 

In Industrial Robotics however German is a world leader and with KUKA has a company in the top ten of the World's top industrial robot manufacturers. Also only one US company in the top ten. Most are Japanese.

 

https://www.marketresearchreports.com/blog/2019/05/08/world’s-top-10-industrial-robot-manufacturers

 

As for dishwashers and ovens what Miele is doing in that area is simply astounding. They have developed a way of cooking food from with in. So they demonstrated how to cook fish on a bed of ice in an oven, without the ice melting, but the fish was cooked. Simply scientific witchcraft. It was truly astounding. Miele are so far ahead of the competition in ovens, hobs, dishwashers, washing machines and dryers that it's almost embarassing.

 

 

Im sure all this is helping all the kebab sellers,and the million plus awaiting,Germany is doomed,just like 80 years ago

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

88?

no way, 42 is the answer (Hammered in by Brit author.)

 

[johnpetersen]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Granted Vaporfly has been a nugget, but you can hardly buy it anywhere.

 

At the head of your article about Leica it says "Updated Sept. 16, 2008". I think you'll find that since 2014 Leica has been doing spectacularly well:

 

"...in June last year, it announced that sales had increased for the fifth consecutive year. "

https://fstoppers.com/business/why-leica-shedding-staff-when-its-profits-are-increasing-382229

 

On electric vehicles, again with the Porsche Taycan German automakers have set the standard. No electric car comes close to the Porsche Taycan. BMW also has some good offerings. Audi's E-Tron and Daimler's Mercedes EQC are all better than anything from Tesla. Indeed VW has just built an entire factory for electric vehicles. Yes, Germany was slow to enter the electric vehicle arena, but they will outperform Tesla in every way. As they are already doing.

 

Tesla of course piggy-backed of German manufacturing expertise, in 2016 they bought the German Grohman Engineering GmbH. Tesla to this day has never turned a profit and carries a mountain of debt. I'm not even sure Tesla will survive. It's cars have terrible reviews as well.

 

Thanks for that very interesting Politica article on AI. I quote:

 

"When it comes to how to economically use company data, process data and product data from complex supply chains ... which is proportionally a much bigger market, the competition is only just starting," the mid-July draft states.

Wolfgang Wahlster, the director and CEO of the German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence (DFKI), said he believes Germany is already "ahead by two to three years to our global competitors in that field."

 

So in some areas Germany is ahead of the competition but in other there is room for increased investment. Good to see Berlin addressing this issue at least Merkel is doing something right. But yes, we are behind China, Japan and the US in AI.

 

In Industrial Robotics however German is a world leader and with KUKA has a company in the top ten of the World's top industrial robot manufacturers. Also only one US company in the top ten. Most are Japanese.

 

https://www.marketresearchreports.com/blog/2019/05/08/world’s-top-10-industrial-robot-manufacturers

 

As for dishwashers and ovens what Miele is doing in that area is simply astounding. They have developed a way of cooking food from with in. So they demonstrated how to cook fish on a bed of ice in an oven, without the ice melting, but the fish was cooked. Simply scientific witchcraft. It was truly astounding. Miele are so far ahead of the competition in ovens, hobs, dishwashers, washing machines and dryers that it's almost embarassing.

 

 

Here's what you wrote about Leica:

"Leica understood that digital was a game changer. And most importantly they understood that DSLRs were on the way out. They have also started to co-operate with mobile phone manufacturers. Their understanding of the market is excellent."

And that was utterly false. It nearly went under before it adjusted. And where does it stand in relation to Japanese camera makers today? It's a blip compared to them. In the world competition, Leica is an also ran.

 

As for Tesla not turning a profit...wishful thinking is not substitute for reality.

Tesla turns a profit and says it may hit 2020 delivery goals despite pandemic

"Tesla turned a surprise profit in the first quarter of 2020 of $16 million, despite factory shutdowns in China and the US, the company announced on Wednesday. It said it may still hit its goal of delivering 500,000 vehicles worldwide this year even in the face of the pandemic. It’s the first time in Tesla’s history that the company has turned in three consecutive profitable quarters."

https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/29/21241728/tesla-q1-earnings-financial-results-elon-musk-coronavirus-profit

And you would do well to read that article by the German engineer about why German EV's don't offer serious competition to Tesla. Basically, Tesla was imagined from the ground up to be an EV. German car manufacturers have just adapted their autos to be EV's. Your notion that Porsche sets the standard displays exactly the same kind of outmoded thinking that has kept German EV so far behind. It's not about acceleration or speed. It's about integration.

And nice cherry picking in that Politico article. You found the one little encouraging bit. But of course, that's the opinion of an interested party. Doesn't seem like the world is much interested. At least to go by investments which are minsicule.And you misrepresented that article by claiming in some areas Germany's ahead, in others behind in AI Really?Nothing in that article supports the use of a plural.

And in Robotics, as you noted, the Japanese are by far the world's leaders.

And by the way, many of the developments you claim Miele pioneered are actually commonplace in high tech ovens for restaurant and industrial use. Miele simply adapted them for home use.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, david555 said:

 (Even Boris is not ready, and not start controls....the E.U. seems starting anyway 1 Jan.2021 ???? )

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/07/eu-ready-full-brexit-border-checks-next-year-barnier-claims/

EU 'ready' for full Brexit border checks next year, Barnier claims 
Michel Barnier said there would be customs controls from January 1, even though the UK won't be ready for full border checks until July 

By James Crisp, 
Brussels Correspondent 
7 July 2020 • 11:10am 

 

The European Union will introduce full border checks with the UK on January 1, despite Britain introducing customs controls on EU goods more slowly and whether or not the two sides agree a trade deal.

Michel Barnier warned a House of Lords Committee that Brussels “will not delay things”, despite a Government U-Turn, which meant full controls on imports to the UK not being imposed for another six months after the EU. 

The UK announced a gradual three phased implementation of border checks in June after previously insisting that checks would be inevitable. Full border checks will now only apply on EU goods entering the UK from July 2021.  

 

more...

 

I dont think the Brexiteers will be able to complain.

After all they knew what they were voting for and presumably border checks was what they all wanted.

[kingdong]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Of course it is true. I did not say devalued currency is the key factor but it is a factor.

 

For Germany to control the EU it does need the Euro. Germany's economy did OK before and after the Euro. 

 

Greece should never have been admitted - agreed already. Greece is a victim of the EU and itself. 

if the eu is so magnificent,why did it let greece join?can,t it do simple arithmetic?

[kingdong]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

I dont think the Brexiteers will be able to complain.

After all they knew what they were voting for and presumably border checks was what they all wanted.

perhaps they did want border checks to help stop the influx of drugs illegal immigrants etc etc

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

no way, 42 is the answer (Hammered in by Brit author.)

 

ah  the Buttock Solution!

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, kingdong said:

perhaps they did want border checks to help stop the influx of drugs illegal immigrants etc etc

Yes but the UK is not ready to implement full border checks.

The EU is though.

I suspect they are worried there will be a lot of immigrants from the UK trying to enter the EU illegally. 

[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, kingdong said:

if the eu is so magnificent,why did it let greece join?can,t it do simple arithmetic?

Obsessed with expansion at any cost. 

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 I'm just happy I have an old banger!

don,t talk about your wife like that.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, nauseus said:

Obsessed with expansion at any cost. 

But you dont think they will let an independent Scotland join though eh?

[nauseus]

Just now, kingdong said:

don,t talk about your wife like that.

I can proudly say that I can't truthfully talk about my wife like that. But the car is getting a bit shabby.

[kingdong]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Yes but the UK is not ready to implement full border checks.

The EU is though.

I suspect they are worried there will be a lot of immigrants from the UK trying to enter the EU illegally. 

yeah sweaties worried about scotland getting independence.

[kingdong]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I can proudly say that I can't truthfully talk about my wife like that. But the car is getting a bit shabby.

trade it in then for a newer model,( the car,not your wife)

[melvinmelvin]

37 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Granted Vaporfly has been a nugget, but you can hardly buy it anywhere.

 

At the head of your article about Leica it says "Updated Sept. 16, 2008". I think you'll find that since 2014 Leica has been doing spectacularly well:

 

"...in June last year, it announced that sales had increased for the fifth consecutive year. "

https://fstoppers.com/business/why-leica-shedding-staff-when-its-profits-are-increasing-382229

 

On electric vehicles, again with the Porsche Taycan German automakers have set the standard. No electric car comes close to the Porsche Taycan. BMW also has some good offerings. Audi's E-Tron and Daimler's Mercedes EQC are all better than anything from Tesla. Indeed VW has just built an entire factory for electric vehicles. Yes, Germany was slow to enter the electric vehicle arena, but they will outperform Tesla in every way. As they are already doing.

 

Tesla of course piggy-backed of German manufacturing expertise, in 2016 they bought the German Grohman Engineering GmbH. Tesla to this day has never turned a profit and carries a mountain of debt. I'm not even sure Tesla will survive. It's cars have terrible reviews as well.

 

Thanks for that very interesting Politico article on AI. I quote:

 

"When it comes to how to economically use company data, process data and product data from complex supply chains ... which is proportionally a much bigger market, the competition is only just starting," the mid-July draft states.

Wolfgang Wahlster, the director and CEO of the German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence (DFKI), said he believes Germany is already "ahead by two to three years to our global competitors in that field."

 

So in some areas Germany is ahead of the competition but in other there is room for increased investment. Good to see Berlin addressing this issue at least Merkel is doing something right. But yes, we are behind China, Japan and the US in AI.

 

In Industrial Robotics however German is a world leader and with KUKA has a company in the top ten of the World's top industrial robot manufacturers. Also only one US company in the top ten. Most are Japanese.

 

https://www.marketresearchreports.com/blog/2019/05/08/world’s-top-10-industrial-robot-manufacturers

 

As for dishwashers and ovens what Miele is doing in that area is simply astounding. They have developed a way of cooking food from with in. So they demonstrated how to cook fish on a bed of ice in an oven, without the ice melting, but the fish was cooked. Simply scientific witchcraft. It was truly astounding. Miele are so far ahead of the competition in ovens, hobs, dishwashers, washing machines and dryers that it's almost embarassing.

 

 

 

as for Miele, good stuff yes,

but look at the cost of the high tech dish washers /washers / dryers / fridges

3-5 times the cost of "normal" well known brands

 

hmm, I note that Carl Z is not mentioned

 

ALso, some of the German Maritim industry is super high tech and world leading

 

Not all, but some of the beer - outstanding

 

Benz and BMW have made some absolutely outstanding engines over the past 5-10 years

(AMG and Brabus super high tech)

 

(although, when Benz and BMW started to make modern high power engines they copied a lot from Toyota,

 copying goes both ways)

 

 

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, kingdong said:

yeah sweaties worried about scotland getting independence.

I think they are worried about you guys.

What with Engurlund deciding to turn itself into a 3rd world country.

 

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

But you dont think they will let an independent Scotland join though eh?

If you mean the EU, I don't know really. I am sure that they would at least consider bending their own rules (again) if Scotland becomes available. The chance of a revengeful political victory may well be too tasty for the EU to pass up and they aren't scoring many of those these days!   

 

 

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, kingdong said:

trade it in then for a newer model,( the car,not your wife)

I would love to but times are tough right now. 

[kingdong]

11 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

But you dont think they will let an independent Scotland join though eh?

cause they will the eu will happily pay for scotlands " free" education and prescriptions,they,ll even give you a grant to rebuild hadrians wall.