I just lost 10 KG. It was EASY

[WaveHunter]

On 7/18/2020 at 7:55 AM, Peterw42 said:

OP, yes there are lots of variations of the low/no carbs diet. And yes it does work for rapid weight loss initially. However, you will find the weight will come back just as quick as soon as you reintroduce carbs back into your diet. 

Its not a permanent weight loss solution, it is great for that initial weight loss to get you started and then switch to healthy balanced diet.

I think you misunderstand what Carnivore is all about.  It is not a short-term weight loss diet.  Rather it is a long-term nutritional lifestyle that is designed to change the metabolic pathways that optimize stored and dietary fats as a viable fuel source that can actually replace carbs.

 

Most people may find it hard to believe that carbs are NOT an essential macronutrient; only good fats and protein are essential for metabolic health.  It is simply a nutritional myth that carbs are essential if you look at genuine metabolic science.

 

The truth is that carbs are the reason why obesity and metabolic syndromes like Diabetes type 2 are at epidemic levels with those who follow the Standard American Diet (SAD), not only in adults but in children as well.  A generation ago, Diabetes type 2 in children was practically unheard of.  Is that just a coincidence that these epidemics coincide with the timeframe when government guidelines begin to favor carbs and low fat food?  Do your research diligently from unbiased sources and it makes you really wonder.

 

Personally, I've been on a long nutritional journey over the last ten years ever since I was diagnosed by my doctor to be obese, pre-diabetic, and dangerously hypertensive.  My (ex) doctor's only advice was to cut calories and exercise more, and then prescribed statins and metformin, telling me that I would probably need to be on insulin in the near future.

 

That was pretty devastating news for me, but instead of just accepting his dictates, I started studying more about thee subjects.  Naturally I was overwhelmed with a lot of bogus information but gradually I came to the decision to follow a plant-based diet.  I did have an positive impact on my health in some respects initially, but I hated it, and over time a lot of health issues associated with being a Vegan began to arise.

 

That is when I started exploring Keto and after an adaptation period (which was not fun at all) I began to see positive results, not just in how I felt but in what my blood tests showed.  It did not take long either.  I had a blood test right before I started with Keto, and another one 6 weeks later, and the changes in numbers was striking!  I was no longer pre-diabetic, and my blood pressure had returned to near normal, and I was shedding stored body fat.

 

The thing about Keto that differentiates it from all other forms of dieting is that it is NOT based on caloric restriction.  Instead it is based on carbohydrate restriction.  That is a BIG difference.  Caloric restriction diets have been around for over 100 years, and in all of that time they have ALL had an abysmal long-term success rate.  Today, science has proved that shedding excess body fat is NOT about restricting calories; it is about restricting carbs...very simple to understand if you look at the metabolic science behind it.

 

The only problem was low energy; not when I was sedentary, but when I wanted to exert myself (i.e.: sports).  Also, even though I was loosing body fat, I was also loosing some muscle mass.  it is referred to as becoming "skinny fat".

 

I tried to figure out a solution, and I finally figured out that even though I was doing a Keto type diet, I was not actually becoming "keto adapted".  A lot of people who try Keto fail because of this.  What I mean by "keto adapted" is that it is not enough to simply restrict carbs.  You also need your body to redefine the metabolic pathways that allow stored body fat to be accessed efficiently as a fuel source.

 

Merely cutting carbs will result in ketosis but if the body is not efficient at using those ketones, stored body fat will not be liberated sufficiently to fuel the body.  It can take weeks or even months to become fully keto-adapted, and many who do not realize this will just give up because they feel tired, lethargic and hungry, and do not realize this only occurs in the initial adaptation phase, and can be greatly alleviated if you pay attention to getting enough fats in your diet.

 

The key to making keto or Carnivore work is DIETARY FAT, and a lot of it!  It really is as simple as that, and that is where Carnivore nutrition is particularly effective. 

 

Cutting carbs alone will not work; you need to replace the energy of those carbs with fats, and in the beginning of adapted to a Carnivore diet, you really should be stuffing yourself!  You may actually gain weight initially on a Carnivore diet but your energy will go right through the roof as well!  That's what I found to be true, and so as you become more adapted, you start burning more and more stored body fat.

 

It is absolutely essential to embrace Carnivore or Keto as a LONG-TERM nutritional strategy rather than just as quick weight loss diet.  Like most worthwhile things in life, there are no short cuts or quick fixes.  You need to be committed for the long term and think of this as a "lifestyle", not just a quickie diet.

 

Unlike caloric restriction diets which are simply not sustainable, eating Carnivore or Keto is fully sustainable long-term and most importantly it is safe long-term as well.

 

Many people will be shocked to know that eating copious amounts of red fatty meats, loads of eggs, and lots of butter is not unhealthy at all.  If you really look at unbiased and truly science based clinical studies, you will find this to be quite true.

 

I have been experimenting with Carnivore now for over three months and I carefully track my macros.  My carbs are 10g per day, my protein is 117g per day, and my fat is 128 g per day.  I am a very active cyclist riding 90 minutes per day (hill climbing on Doi Suthep), swimming laps in the pool 45 minutes per day, and going the the gym 3 days a week for 60 minute resistance training.  My goal in terms of fat loss is to shed about 10kg (not for vanity but to improve cycling performance).

 

My diet consists of fatty cuts of meat (rib-eye mostly), eggs, liver, salmon mostly.  No veggies or fruit.  Any processed foods are of course taboo.

 

Now I know that you may consider veggies and fruits to be essentials for good health but that's simply not true.  My diet provides ALL of the nutrients that fruits & veggies provide, and believe it or not, lack of fiber found in fruits and veggies is not an issue.  I will admit I felt sketchy about this because of how indoctrinated we all are in nutritional myths, but last week I had comprehensive blood testing done, and ALL of my metabolic related values were spot on perfect!

 

I'm not asking anyone to take my word for any of this, or to just blindly try what I'm doing.  I spend a lot of time studying and learning the underlying metabolic science, and I talked extensively with my family physician (who is very well informed about these subjects and well respected in the field).

 

I'm only posting this because it took me a long time to get where I'm at right now and I just want to encourage those who seek a healthy nutritional lifestyle to explore the science behind what I'm talking about.  Take the time to do your research correctly, and not just watch some dopey YouTube health gurus.  Really do your due diligence because the actual facts are out there, and the more you learn about them, the more nutritional myths you will be able to dispel.

 

Sorry for making a very long post here, but I feel strongly on the subject and have no ulterior motive other than to help people discover what took me so long to figure out.

Edited August 23, 2020 by WaveHunter

[pineapple01]

First time ive needed to diet. Feel Better NO! . Ive not felt so bad for the last 2 Months. Lost 22 ibs and tummy rumbles, burps and feel down on general power Is this normal at 70.?

[WaveHunter]

28 minutes ago, pineapple01 said:

First time ive needed to diet. Feel Better NO! . Ive not felt so bad for the last 2 Months. Lost 22 ibs and tummy rumbles, burps and feel down on general power Is this normal at 70.?

If you've gone two months and still feel as bad as you say, something is wrong with your diet.  You should provide more specific details about your diet if you want constructive feedback. 

 

I can say that 22 pound in two months is perhaps is excessive, and if you feel run down, your diet may be slowing your resting metabolic rate to unacceptable levels, and that is not a good thing. 

 

You may not just be loosing fat but lean tissue as well, especially if you are only restricting calories without sufficient reduction in carbohydrates.  That is the perfect recipe for becoming "skinny fat" (technically referred to as metabolically obese normal weight or hidden obesity).

Edited August 23, 2020 by WaveHunter

[cyril sneer]

i bet 90% of those on here trying to lose weight are needing to because of booze

[Tagged]

34 minutes ago, cyril sneer said:

i bet 90% of those on here trying to lose weight are needing to because of booze

Thats why it is recomended to quit drinking while on diet! Since thos tread started, my gf went doen 10 kg on keto -500 cal diet! 

[pineapple01]

49 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

If you've gone two months and still feel as bad as you say, something is wrong with your diet.  You should provide more specific details about your diet if you want constructive feedback. 

 

I can say that 22 pound in two months is perhaps is excessive, and if you feel run down, your diet may be slowing your resting metabolic rate to unacceptable levels, and that is not a good thing. 

 

You may not just be loosing fat but lean tissue as well, especially if you are only restricting calories without sufficient reduction in carbohydrates.  That is the perfect recipe for becoming "skinny fat" (technically referred to as metabolically obese normal weight or hidden obesity).

Nearly Zero Carbs ,just Steak, Lamb lots veggies and no Beer. as doc at best Hospital suggested. .I go back in 4 weeks. Sad thing i feel like a couple of Leos on Sunday is the bit i miss But wont have.

[pineapple01]

36 minutes ago, cyril sneer said:

i bet 90% of those on here trying to lose weight are needing to because of booze

Cheap Shot.

[WaveHunter]

23 minutes ago, pineapple01 said:

Nearly Zero Carbs ,just Steak, Lamb lots veggies and no Beer. as doc at best Hospital suggested. .I go back in 4 weeks. Sad thing i feel like a couple of Leos on Sunday is the bit i miss But wont have.

Just to be clear, you can't really be zero carbs if you're eating "lots" of veggies. Even so, it seems odd you'd be in so much distress, but of course, everybody is different. 

 

Personally I found I do best on only 10 grams of carbs at most.  Anything more, and I just don't feel as good...but that is based on my being fully keto-adapted so that my body can get it's energy from fats efficiently. 

 

Keto-adaption is really a function of having enough fats in your diet long enough for the body to become efficient at using fats (both stored body fay and dietary fat) as fuel.  I mean just because you're in ketosis, doesn't mean your body has adapted to efficiently use the ketones yet.  That can take some time...but IMHO not two months.

 

Do you know for a fact that you are indeed in ketosis?  Do you use a ketone/glucose meter or Ph sticks to check?  A meter is fairly inexpensive and easy to use, but even the Ph sticks will give you a good idea.  A lot of people who try keto get an unexpected surprise to find that they are not in ketosis even though they think they are doing keto correctly....and those veggies could be a possible culprit, or perhaps something else like steak sauce on those rib-eyes maybe??  Sometimes it can be real tricky to know hw many carbs you're actually consuming, especially if you are using processed food products.

 

For some people it takes longer than others, and though I have no scientific basis to say this, I'm guessing keto adaptation takes longer, the older you are.

 

How about exercise?  Are you doing any form of resistance training (not cardio)?  Resistance training can really make a huge difference in kick starting ketone production, not to mention other significant and positive hormonal changes (next paragraph).  Staying sedentary while dieting, especially extreme dieting will surely slow you metabolism.

 

My point is that if you are truly in ketosis after a week or so you should feel more energetic, not less so, because hormonal changes associated with ketosis result in an increase in noradrenaline and human growth hormone in a very significant way, especially if you are combining the keto with resistance training (and by resistance training, it needn't be crazy heavy weights.  It doesn't take much to make your hormones kick in.)

Edited August 23, 2020 by WaveHunter

[fredwiggy]

15 minutes ago, pineapple01 said:

Nearly Zero Carbs ,just Steak, Lamb lots veggies and no Beer. as doc at best Hospital suggested. .I go back in 4 weeks. Sad thing i feel like a couple of Leos on Sunday is the bit i miss But wont have.

Just quoting your short post, but this is about the previous poster who eats mostly fats and proteins, which are okay short term but very harmful over time. I've eaten a balanced diet low fat,moderate protein and carbs for 45 years and have maintained a body fat percentage from 2 to 8% all these years. The only reason it's gone up the last two years is no access here to a good gym, although I've still worked out 4x a week. Exercise doesn't burn many calories and your diet is 75% of weight loss.  Your body needs carbs and nutrients,especially Vitamin C, from fruits and vegetables. Booze of course adds liquid calories, like all sugar drinks, which are the worst way to stay lean. Some love drinking, but they consume a lot of calories that way, and sugar in the system has to be burned before stored body fat. This is why his diet works, at least for now, because he is in ketosis. It is never a good long term diet plan.  Low carbs isn't bad, but very little to none is.....................................................Low-carbohydrate diets for weight loss are receiving a lot of attention of late. Reasons for this interest include a plethora of low-carbohydrate diet books, the over-sensationalism of these diets in the media and by celebrities, and the promotion of these diets in fitness centres and health clubs. The re-emergence of low-carbohydrate diets into the spotlight has lead many people in the general public to question whether carbohydrates are inherently 'bad' and should be limited in the diet. Although low-carbohydrate diets were popular in the 1970s they have resurged again yet little scientific fact into the true nature of how these diets work or, more importantly, any potential for serious long-term health risks in adopting this dieting practice appear to have reached the mainstream literature. Evidence abounds that low-carbohydrate diets present no significant advantage over more traditional energy-restricted, nutritionally balanced diets both in terms of weight loss and weight maintenance. Studies examining the efficacy of using low-carbohydrate diets for long-term weight loss are few in number, however few positive benefits exist to promote the adoption of carbohydrate restriction as a realistic, and more importantly, safe means of dieting. While short-term carbohydrate restriction over a period of a week can result in a significant loss of weight (albeit mostly from water and glycogen stores), of serious concern is what potential exists for the following of this type of eating plan for longer periods of months to years. Complications such as heart arrhythmias, cardiac contractile function impairment, sudden death, osteoporosis, kidney damage, increased cancer risk, impairment of physical activity and lipid abnormalities can all be linked to long-term restriction of carbohydrates in the diet. The need to further explore and communicate the untoward side-effects of low-carbohydrate diets should be an important public health message from nutrition professionals................https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322881#Studying-low-carb-diets-and-death-risk

Edited August 23, 2020 by fredwiggy

[Tagged]

Even keto nedsnto bee varied and limited time! 
 

vegetables and alot improves the resoults, nothing wrong with veggies, but limited intake of fruit! 

[WaveHunter]

50 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Just quoting your short post, but this is about the previous poster who eats mostly fats and proteins, which are okay short term but very harmful over time. I've eaten a balanced diet low fat,moderate protein and carbs for 45 years and have maintained a body fat percentage from 2 to 8% all these years. The only reason it's gone up the last two years is no access here to a good gym, although I've still worked out 4x a week. Exercise doesn't burn many calories and your diet is 75% of weight loss.  Your body needs carbs and nutrients,especially Vitamin C, from fruits and vegetables. Booze of course adds liquid calories, like all sugar drinks, which are the worst way to stay lean. Some love drinking, but they consume a lot of calories that way, and sugar in the system has to be burned before stored body fat. This is why his diet works, at least for now, because he is in ketosis. It is never a good long term diet plan....................................................Low-carbohydrate diets for weight loss are receiving a lot of attention of late. Reasons for this interest include a plethora of low-carbohydrate diet books, the over-sensationalism of these diets in the media and by celebrities, and the promotion of these diets in fitness centres and health clubs. The re-emergence of low-carbohydrate diets into the spotlight has lead many people in the general public to question whether carbohydrates are inherently 'bad' and should be limited in the diet. Although low-carbohydrate diets were popular in the 1970s they have resurged again yet little scientific fact into the true nature of how these diets work or, more importantly, any potential for serious long-term health risks in adopting this dieting practice appear to have reached the mainstream literature. Evidence abounds that low-carbohydrate diets present no significant advantage over more traditional energy-restricted, nutritionally balanced diets both in terms of weight loss and weight maintenance. Studies examining the efficacy of using low-carbohydrate diets for long-term weight loss are few in number, however few positive benefits exist to promote the adoption of carbohydrate restriction as a realistic, and more importantly, safe means of dieting. While short-term carbohydrate restriction over a period of a week can result in a significant loss of weight (albeit mostly from water and glycogen stores), of serious concern is what potential exists for the following of this type of eating plan for longer periods of months to years. Complications such as heart arrhythmias, cardiac contractile function impairment, sudden death, osteoporosis, kidney damage, increased cancer risk, impairment of physical activity and lipid abnormalities can all be linked to long-term restriction of carbohydrates in the diet. The need to further explore and communicate the untoward side-effects of low-carbohydrate diets should be an important public health message from nutrition professionals................https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322881#Studying-low-carb-diets-and-death-risk

With all due respect, you are absolutely incorrect about negative long term effects of high fat / low carb nutrition.  Keto (and Carnivore) are legitimate and sound nutritional strategies if you base them on clinically proven science, not anecdotal pseudo-science.

 

That's not to say there are not a lot of dopey proponents of LowCarb/High Fat diets on You Tube and across the web.  There are for sure and most of these so-called health gurus are just in it for financial gain and are often totally oblivious of the real underlying science.  They enrich nobody except themselves.

 

I am very well read on this subject and have been studying it for a number of years now, and to date, I have yet to find a legitimate clinical study that supports negative health outcomes associated with high fat/low carb nutrition.

 

I have been practicing Keto for several years now and have periodic blood testing and they always come back just fine, and I feel better than I have ever felt before Keto, and that includes the last three months I have been at only 10 grams of carbs per day...and I am an athlete and perfect just fine in that capacity as well with no carb-loading, no sports gels, etc.

 

The so-called studies that attack keto as unsound and unsafe are almost always based on anecdotal and/or statistical studies that attempt to correlate Keto as a causative factor in negative health outcomes when in fact they are only showing a correlation.  Such studies are NOT the gold-standard clinical double blind placebo type of studies, and so you can pretty much make them support anything you want. 

 

An analogy to what I'm saying is this:  You could say that every time there is a house fire, there is a fire truck on scene.  That is a valid correlation.  Does that prove that the fire truck caused the house fire?  Certainly not.  

 

Such "studies" have been soundly disproven in countless legitimate and unbiased clinical studies in the last few years.  And those studies that appear to be legitimate that are against Keto are often suspect when you see that they are underwritten by the big food corporations that make billions of dollars from selling low-fat foods loaded with high fructose corn syrup.  When you carefully read such studies it isn't that hard, even for a layman like me, to see the flaws or outright fabrications in them.

 

The worst thing you can do is accept such "studies" on face value simply because they appear in a popular third-party publication, or worse, in some dopey YouTube video. Even if they are in a prestigious publication, you still need to carefully read the actual study for yourself and not just accept someone else's word.

 

To sum up, I just think you need to get information from truly unbiased and science-based sources where there is a legitimate peer-review process in place...and then make your own decision for yourself.  You really don't need to be a rocket scientist to do that.

Edited August 23, 2020 by WaveHunter

[Sujo]

Id actually like to put on weight. Spent the last 2 months doing nothing but lazing at home watching bad movies, eating steak and chips, out for beers every night.

 

Went from 72kg to 73kg. Not happy.

[WaveHunter]

8 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Id actually like to put on weight. Spent the last 2 months doing nothing but lazing at home watching bad movies, eating steak and chips, out for beers every night.

 

Went from 72kg to 73kg. Not happy.

If you want to put on muscle, go to the gym.  If you want to put on fat, you're off to a good start to getting the coveted beer belly.  Just add regular trips to 7-11 for some primo junk food and you'll be a happy guy in no time at all.  Just kidding of course as I'm sure you were ????

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by WaveHunter

[fredwiggy]

Complications such as heart arrhythmias, cardiac contractile function impairment, sudden death, osteoporosis, kidney damage, increased cancer risk, impairment of physical activity and lipid abnormalities can all be linked to long-term restriction of carbohydrates in the diet.

Just now, WaveHunter said:

With all due respect, you are absolutely incorrect about negative long term effects of nutrition based only on proteins and fats.  Keto (and Carnivore) are legitimate and sound nutritional strategies if you base them on clinically proven science, not anecdotal pseudo-science.

 

I am very well read on this subject and have been studying it for a number of years now.

 

The so-called studies that attack keto as unsound and unsafe are almost always based on anecdotal and/or statistical studies that attempt to correlate Keto as a causative factor in negative health outcomes when in fact they are only showing a correlation.  Such studies are NOT the gold-standard clinical double blind placebo type of studies, and so you can pretty much make them support anything you want. 

 

An analogy to what I'm saying is this:  You could say that every time there is a house fire, there is a fire truck on scene.  That is a valid correlation.  Does that prove that the fire truck caused the house fire?  Certainly not.  

 

Such "studies" have been soundly disproven in countless legitimate and unbiased clinical studies in the last few years.  And those study against Keto that are indeed clinical studies become very suspect when you see that the big food corporations that make billions of dollars from selling low-fat foods loaded with high fructose corn syrup often are the underwriters of such bogus studies.

 

All I will say is get your facts from truly unbiased and science-based sources.

Ok, but I'm not incorrect, and training thousands of people in 16 years, giving advice to those people, who all lost body fat and kept it off as long as I saw them, is actually proof a balanced "lifestyle" works. Keto isn't unsafe as I said, if used short term. I get my facts from reading everything I can find about nutrition and diets over 45 years, up until now. There aren't countless clinical studies stating a diet high in fats over a long period of time are healthy. Carbohydrates are a necessary part of a healthy lifestyle, and the best source of energy. I never said sugar laden foods are good for anything. In fact, they are the main reason so many people are obese in the world, and the food industry makes billions adding sugar for that reason. People get addicted to sugar. What studies have gone on for years stating that a keto diet is healthy that long? When you eat almost no carbs for years you are losing many nutrients that aren't found in animal fats and proteins. Yes. over a short term, and sporadically, keto works, because you are starving your body from sugar energy and using stored fat as energy, which isn't as efficient as carbs., but you do lose fat. Being well read on a subject that is harmful over a long period of time doesn't help you in the long run. There are many that state that keto works of course, because it does. But nothing is a substitute for common sense in dieting. Your body needs a variety of nutrients, some that aren't available in just meat, fish, eggs,or dairy products. The books and articles I've read over the 45 years aren't biased but proven studies and medical journals. I'm not talking about using a keto diet for a year or so. I'm talking about a lifestyle change where it will harm you from nutrient deprivation over years. ..................................... Complications such as heart arrhythmias, cardiac contractile function impairment, sudden death, osteoporosis, kidney damage, increased cancer risk, impairment of physical activity and lipid abnormalities can all be linked to long-term restriction of carbohydrates in the diet................That is from studies done over years and the results from them. You can argue that they are biased yet not prove them wrong. Eating too many carbs isn't good, especially if you need to lose body fat. Carbs have essential nutrients that are healthy for you if eaten in moderation. Like I mentioned, I have stayed lean all of my life, from a family that can get fat if they don't eat well. My brother died a year ago from a diabetes induced heart attack, because he loved to eat, especially carbs. I have eaten low carbs at times, and have gotten a little tighter, as all bodybuilders do before a contest. Restricting carbs until the event, then eating a bunch for a pump, raising the blood sugar . All "diets" work short term, but a lifestyle change to a balanced diet is always better. Low-carb, high-fat diets are linked with negative changes in the composition of your bacterial ecosystem that can impact your overall health. The Mediterranean diet is probably the healthiest "diet" one can be on, as it's again a lifestyle and not a short term thing. High fat diets lead to heart disease, as thin people that eat too much fatty foods still can get heart attacks. The colon needs fiber to work properly. Colon cancer and rectal cancer may be associated with a typical Western diet, which is low in fiber and high in fat and calories.  Some studies have found an increased risk of colon cancer in people who eat diets high in red meat and processed meat. Studies that are biased? Why?

[Sujo]

33 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

If you want to put on muscle, go to the gym.  If you want to put on fat, you're off to a good start to getting the coveted beer belly.  Just add regular trips to 7-11 for some primo junk food and you'll be a happy guy in no time at all.  Just kidding of course as I'm sure you were ????

 

No im not kidding. I need more fat. I want about 5kg more and have lived like a drunken slug for 2 months for very little gain.

 

7 years ago 85kg in office work.

Moved to malaysia for outdoor work but not physical. 

 

Within 3 months dropped to 70kg. But really struggled to increase the weight. Its annoying.

 

I only work 2 hours a day. The gf does the shopping. I only go out to work then drink.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Sujo

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

... The need to further explore and communicate the untoward side-effects of low-carbohydrate diets should be an important public health message from nutrition professionals................https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322881#Studying-low-carb-diets-and-death-risk

Oh, and another thing; the article you linked is a perfect example of a third party trying to imply that Low Carb/High Fat is dangerous based on a study that makes it very clear that it's findings are entirely meta-analysis based on survey data but draws no actual causal relationship between low carb and negative health outcomes.  In other words, it is not a true clinical study at all, and proves nothing except the writers opinion, NOT scientifically proven fact.

 

The article itself is poorly written third-party interpretation of the study with no link even provided to the actual study.  And of course the article has the bait click headline "Low-carb diets 'are unsafe and should be avoided' when in fact that is only the researcher's personal opinion, not a scientifically proven fact. 

 

The article is so poorly written that it even identifies the lead scientist as Prof. Lodz, when in fact it is Prof. Banach of the Medical University of Lodz.

 

I'm just saying, you need to get your information from the actual studies, not a third-hand interpretation of them.

Edited August 23, 2020 by WaveHunter

[pineapple01]

Ah well, all ive done is cut down a lot on stodge,  perfectly balanced diet ,got a loss result,  but hissed off dont feel better for it, but thanks for your input.  

[WaveHunter]

26 minutes ago, Sujo said:

No im not kidding. I need more fat. I want about 5kg more and have lived like a drunken slug for 2 months for very little gain.

 

7 years ago 85kg in office work.

Moved to malaysia for outdoor work but not physical. 

 

Within 3 months dropped to 70kg. But really struggled to increase the weight. Its annoying.

 

I only work 2 hours a day. The gf does the shopping. I only go out to work then drink.

Well if you seriously want to put on quality weight and are having a difficult time of it, laying around watching TV and drinking beer is not going to help.  Good nutrition with proper amounts of protein combined with resistance training in the gym would be a better strategy IMO.  I mean, wouldn't you rather put on lean mass as opposed to fat?

 

What is your body fat percentage; do you know?  If you are really underweight there are special milkshake products designed to increase bodyweight.  I think one of them is called Assure.

 

If you eating a good nutritional diet and are still clinically underweight (as in medically unhealthy)  you should visit a doctor.  You might want to do that anyway before embarking on exercise if you've been sedentary for a while.

 

Most people would gladly trade places with you since loosing weight is lot harder than gaining it, but I can appreciate your concerns if this is really an issue for you.

Edited August 23, 2020 by WaveHunter

[bkk6060]

I was fat once.  Been appropriate height to weight for several years now.

What a negative way to live life being fat was for me.  Low self esteem, feeling like garbage, low energy. Even bending over to tie shoe laces was uncomfortable. 

It takes committed lifestyle changes and strong will power. Start with cutting out the sugars and deep fried or greasy foods.  Those eggs you are eating in the morning in these restaurants start with a pan of fatty oils for cooking not healthy what so ever.  Deep fried bread, fake sugar orange juice, fatty/greasy bacon.  Terrible junk.

I am so much healthier and happier being thinner.  Blood work is all excellent.

I would never want to go back to a life of fatness.  A real man who respects himself and properly represents a man I believe should be in decent shape.  Not a big fat slob with his gut hanging out strolling around wearing a Singha tank.  Ever notice they are usually complainers and seem unhappy with everything?

Negative and unappealing way to live.

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by bkk6060

[WaveHunter]

2 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I was fat once.  Been appropriate height to weight for several years now.

What a negative way to live life being fat was for me.  Low self esteem, feeling like garbage, low energy. Even bending over to tie show laces was uncomfortable. 

It takes committed lifestyle changes and strong will power.  I am so much healthier and happier being thinner.  Blood work is all excellent.

I would never want to go back to a life of fatness.  A real man who respects himself and properly represents a man I believe should be in decent shape.  Not a big fat slob with his gut hanging out strolling around wearing a Singha tank.  Ever notice they are usually complainers and seem unhappy with everything?

Negative and unappealing way to live.

 

Well put!  Every person should feel a basic responsibility to take care of their body.  Good health is a gift most people take for granted until they lose it, and often that is a one way street.  Kudos to you! 

[WaveHunter]

25 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

...Not a big fat slob with his gut hanging out strolling around wearing a Singha tank.  Ever notice they are usually complainers and seem unhappy with everything?...

BTW, I grinned when I read this part of your post.  I've seen guy like that at the beach often.  Even worse are the morbidly obese in a tiny pair of Speedos Hahahah!!!   I see that on the beaches in Jomtien all the time.  Don't they have a clue how ridiculous and revolting they look?  Talk about a person in desperate need of a wake up call!

Edited August 23, 2020 by WaveHunter

[fredwiggy]

56 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Oh, and another thing; the article you linked is a perfect example of a third party trying to imply that Low Carb/High Fat is dangerous based on a study that makes it very clear that it's findings are entirely meta-analysis based on survey data but draws no actual causal relationship between low carb and negative health outcomes.  In other words, it is not a true clinical study at all, and proves nothing except the writers opinion, NOT scientifically proven fact.

 

The article itself is poorly written third-party interpretation of the study with no link even provided to the actual study.  And of course the article has the bait click headline "Low-carb diets 'are unsafe and should be avoided' when in fact that is only the researcher's personal opinion, not a scientifically proven fact. 

 

The article is so poorly written that it even identifies the lead scientist as Prof. Lodz, when in fact it is Prof. Banach of the Medical University of Lodz.

 

I'm just saying, you need to get your information from the actual studies, not a third-hand interpretation of them.

And that article is one of a thousand you can find on the internet, and what I have read for 45 years on the subject of dieting. Look it up and don't just take a few opinions of studies that were not long. Why are you telling me to get information when you haven't a clue how much I have read over these 45 years? These are studies involving thousands of people over all these years, not one person's opinion. Think about how many articles I have read over 45 years of being in gyms that long and training for 16 years. I linked one article.......... heres another...............

Ketogenic Diet Side Effects

• Download PDF Copy

By Yolanda Smith, B.Pharm.

Although the adverse effects related to the ketogenic diet are generally less serve than those of anticonvulsant medications used to treat epilepsy, individuals following the diet may experience a number of undesirable effects.

Short-Term Side Effects

There are several short-term side effects that are most evident at the beginning of therapy, particularly when patients commence the diet with an initial fast.

Hypoglycemia is a common side effect in this instance, and noticeable signs may include:

• Excessive thirst
• Frequent urination
• Fatigue
• Hunger
• Confusion, anxiety and/or irritability
• Tachycardia
• Lightheadedness and shakiness
• Sweating and chills

Additionally, patients may also experience some constipation and low-grade acidosis. These effects tend to improve when the diet is continued, as the body adapts to the new diet and adjust the ways in which it sources energy.

Alteration in Blood Composition

As a result of the changes in dietary consumption and the body’s adaptive mechanisms to cope with the reduced carbohydrate intake, there are several changes in the blood composition of individuals following the ketogenic diet.

In particular, the levels of lipids and cholesterol in the blood are commonly higher than what is considered to be normal. More than 60% of patients have raised lipid levels and more than 30% have high levels of cholesterol.

If these changes are profound and there is some concern about the health of the child, slight changes to the diet can be made for the individual patient. For example, saturated fat sources can be substituted for polyunsaturated fats. In some cases, it may be necessary to lower the ketogenic ratio and reduce the proportion of fat to carbohydrate and protein in the diet.

Long-Term Effects

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When the ketogenic diet is continued for extended periods of time, there are other adverse effects that become more evident and have a greater impact on individuals.

Kidney stones, also known as nephrolithiasis, are a common complication for children following the diet, with approximately 5% of patients suffering from the condition. It is, however, treatable and the current recommendations suggest that the diet should be continued. The formation of kidney stones is believed to be linked to hypocitraturia and hypercalciuria, when acidosis causes the bone to demineralize. Additionally, low pH in the urine can encourage the formation of crystals and, eventually, kidney stones.

There is some evidence that supplementation with potassium citrate reduces the incidence of kidney stones, as it binds to and reduces the level of calcium in the bloodstream. More research on this is required, however.

Additionally, patients have an increased risk of bone fractures. This arises from the altered levels of insulin-like growth factor 1 and the effects of acidosis. Acidosis leads to the erosion of bone, weakening the bones and leaving them prone to fractures.

In order to manage these side effects, supplementation of vitamins and minerals are routinely administered to patients following the ketogenic diet. This commonly comprises of a multivitamin, calcium and vitamin D supplements.

Side Effects in Adults

For adults following the ketogenic diet, the most common complications include weight loss, constipation and increased levels of cholesterol and triglycerides. Women may also experience amenorrhea or other disruptions to the menstrual cycle.

References

• http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/low-carb-diet-side-effects.html
• http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4211915/
• http://site.matthewsfriends.org/uploads/File/StonesPolycitra1.pdf
• http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/24/8/979.long..................................................................................Would you like if I linked a hundred more?...................https://www.everydayhealth.com/ketogenic-diet/diet/keto-diet-dangers-you-need-know/

Edited August 23, 2020 by fredwiggy

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

And that article is one of a thousand you can find on the internet, and what I have read for 45 years on the subject of dieting. Look it up and don't just take a few opinions of studies that were not long. Why are you telling me to get information when you haven't a clue how much I have read over these 45 years? These are studies involving thousands of people over all these years, not one person's opinion. Think about how many articles I have read over 45 years of being in gyms that long and training for 16 years. I linked one article.......... heres another...............

Sorry but you're the one who made an incredibly unfounded statement about Low Carb being dangerous.  FYI, I looked up that study from Banach and read it in detail.  Did you?  If you did you would not have cited it as "proof" that Keto is dangerous because even the author of the study admitted that the study did not prove a causal relationship; it was only a correlative study.

 

You do not seem to appreciate the difference between anecdotal studies and clinical studies.  Anecdotal studies such as the ones you cite are essentially meaningless because, at most, they can only show correlations, NOT causal relationships, so I don't car how many thousands of people were studied in a grouping.  That is meaningless in terms of proving a causal relationship.  Do you understand the difference between a correlative study and one that proves a causal relationship?  It seem you do not.

 

Only a a carefully controlled, double-blind placebo study can prove a causal relationship, and when you look at those studies you cite, or any others I have read (and I have read many of them carefully), I have yet to find one the proves Keto is outrightly dangerous if it is practiced as the underlying science dictates.

 

I have no doubt that there are thousands of "studies" proclaiming that Keto is dangerous but I have yet to see one that meets the rigors of a genuine clinical study....not a single one, and believe me, I have looked for one that has some sort of merit to it, and so far the number is ZERO!

 

You are correct that I do not know how many articles and studies you have read, but if you are adamantly stating that Keto is dangerous, you have not done your due diligence.

 

I don't take my personal health lightly and before I began Keto which I have been doing for a number of years now, I did a great deal of research, not from third party articles like you have posted here, but from actual clinical studies that have been reported in highly regarded, peer-reviewed medical journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine, Lancet, Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, and publications such as Science Now, and Nature, to name just a few.

 

When I started Keto I was (and still am) firmly convinced that it is not only safe but a far more healthy nutritional strategy than any other that I am aware of or have tried, and before Keto I had tried a lot of different ones.

 

I have been practicing Keto for several years now and am healthier than I have ever been in my life.  For the last 3 months I have been exploring Carnivore, which is similar to Keto but with even less carbs (for me, around 10 grams per day), and my blood tests confirm that everything is just fine, as it was when I was on Keto before.

 

You are free to believe what you want, as am I.  Unfortunately for you, science seems to be on my side.  For fifty years, mainstream medicine advocated high carbs and low fat as a healthy diet (better knows as the SAD diet, which stands for Standard American Diet.. or as I see it the Stupid American Diet". 

 

As a result of such dietary guidelines, there is presently an epidemic of obesity and Diabetes type 2 in those who follow low fat / high carb diets such as the Standard American Diet.  What's more, this includes children!  A generation ago, Diabetes type 2 was almost unheard of in children and now it is at epidemic levels!  That should tell you something about how dangerous a high carb diet is.

 

There is strong underlying science that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that high carbohydrates are dangerous (not low carbohydrates), and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out!  Clinical studies have proven a proven causal relationship between excessive carbohydrate and many metabolic syndromes including obesity, diabetes type 2, as well as neurological diseases such as Parkinson's, and Alzheimer's.  Scientific studies in the last few years make the connection between high carbohydrates and metabolic syndromes not even open to debate any more!

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you; I'm only arguing that science is king.  If you can't show me genuine clinical studies that prove low carb is dangerous, then perhaps you should re-evaluate your position.

Edited August 23, 2020 by WaveHunter

[Sujo]

2 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Well if you seriously want to put on quality weight and are having a difficult time of it, laying around watching TV and drinking beer is not going to help.  Good nutrition with proper amounts of protein combined with resistance training in the gym would be a better strategy IMO.  I mean, wouldn't you rather put on lean mass as opposed to fat?

 

What is your body fat percentage; do you know?  If you are really underweight there are special milkshake products designed to increase bodyweight.  I think one of them is called Assure.

 

If you eating a good nutritional diet and are still clinically underweight (as in medically unhealthy)  you should visit a doctor.  You might want to do that anyway before embarking on exercise if you've been sedentary for a while.

 

Most people would gladly trade places with you since loosing weight is lot harder than gaining it, but I can appreciate your concerns if this is really an issue for you.

I have visited a doctor as i was concerned. Nothing. I dont want mass, i want fat, doctor also said i need more fat. It just doesnt work.

 

i do not eat a healthy diet as i want fat.

 

think during the day will only roll over one time.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Sujo

[fredwiggy]

10 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Sorry but you're the one who made an incredibly unfounded statement about Low Carb being dangerous.  FYI, I looked up that study from Banach and read it in detail.  Did you?  If you did you would not have cited it as "proof" that Keto is dangerous because even the author of the study admitted that the study did not prove a causal relationship; it was only a correlative study.

 

You do not seem to appreciate the difference between anecdotal studies and clinical studies.  Anecdotal studies such as the ones you cite are essentially meaningless because, at most, they can only show correlations, NOT causal relationships, so I don't car how many thousands of people were studied in a grouping.  That is meaningless in terms of proving a causal relationship.  Do you understand the difference between a correlative study and one that proves a causal relationship?  It seem you do not.

 

Only a a carefully controlled, double-blind placebo study can prove a causal relationship, and when you look at those studies you cite, or any others I have read (and I have read many of them carefully), I have yet to find one the proves Keto is outrightly dangerous if it is practiced as the underlying science dictates.

 

I have no doubt that there are thousands of "studies" proclaiming that Keto is dangerous but I have yet to see one that meets the rigors of a genuine clinical study....not a single one, and believe me, I have looked for one that has some sort of merit to it, and so far the number is ZERO!

 

You are correct that I do not know how many articles and studies you have read, but if you are adamantly stating that Keto is dangerous, you have not done your due diligence.

 

I don't take my personal health lightly and before I began Keto which I have been doing for a number of years now, I did a great deal of research, not from third party articles like you have posted here, but from actual clinical studies that have been reported in highly regarded, peer-reviewed medical journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine, Lancet, Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, and publications such as Science Now, and Nature, to name just a few.

 

When I started Keto I was (and still am) firmly convinced that it is not only safe but a far more healthy nutritional strategy than any other that I am aware of or have tried, and before Keto I had tried a lot of different ones.

 

I have been practicing Keto for several years now and am healthier than I have ever been in my life.  For the last 3 months I have been exploring Carnivore, which is similar to Keto but with even less carbs (for me, around 10 grams per day), and my blood tests confirm that everything is just fine, as it was when I was on Keto before.

 

You are free to believe what you want, as am I.  Unfortunately for you, science seems to be on my side.  For fifty years, mainstream medicine advocated high carbs and low fat as a healthy diet (better knows as the SAD diet, which stands for Standard American Diet.. or as I see it the Stupid American Diet". 

 

As a result of such dietary guidelines, there is presently an epidemic of obesity and Diabetes type 2 in those who follow low fat / high carb diets such as the Standard American Diet.  What's more, this includes children!  A generation ago, Diabetes type 2 was almost unheard of in children and now it is at epidemic levels!  That should tell you something about how dangerous a high carb diet is.

 

There is strong underlying science that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that high carbohydrates are dangerous (not low carbohydrates), and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out!  Clinical studies have proven a proven causal relationship between excessive carbohydrate and many metabolic syndromes including obesity, diabetes type 2, as well as neurological diseases such as Parkinson's, and Alzheimer's.  Scientific studies in the last few years make the connection between high carbohydrates and metabolic syndromes not even open to debate any more!

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you; I'm only arguing that science is king.  If you can't show me genuine clinical studies that prove low carb is dangerous, then perhaps you should re-evaluate your position.

Another one assuming they know someone by a few postings of links, and that they are right. I did not say low carbs are dangerous. I said that a diet with none or almost none , with high fats, is. I did say that too many carbs, especially in the form of sugars, is dangerous and a leading cause of obesity. Please try and understand what I said earlier. I have been reading about and doing this for 45 years, and have stayed lean all this time. One would assume I knew of what I speak. And the thousands of people I have trained getting lean by my recommendations isn't a blind study but proof. There , again, is no long term evidence that a keto diet is safe. It works because you restrict sugars, and a lot of people, including myself, have used it temporarily. You, I'm guessing, were once fat so you tried various "diets" that didn't work for you, so you settled on one that restricted carbs, thinking, like others, that carbs are the problem. they aren't, and millions of bodybuilders like myself are proof. I did say millions, and to me, that isn't a blind study. Most like us, eat healthy, a variety of foods, including a lot of carbs for energy, and have suffered no long term effects from our lifestyle. We don't eat sugar laden foods, except as a treat, aren't addicted to sugar because our consumption is negligible, and we eat low fats from fish, lean meats, some eggs, and low fat dairy products. I put up two links and you downgraded them, thinking they are one persons opinion. You said you don't care if it involved thousands of people. To me, that is pretty strong evidence, especially compared to what you have provided as "evidence' that a keto diet is safe as far as long term. High fats lead to heart disease, period. There are thousands of lean people that get heart attacks every year, and it isn't from being overweight from a high carb diet. High carbs, especially in the form of things that are grown in the ground, will not make anyone fat.  They fill you up quickly, are low in calories, and have necessary fiber, something that will pay you back in the long run going without. Refined grains, products made from white flour, white rice and breads, convert to sugar quickly, and these also can make a person fat, especially if eaten in large amounts.What people add to the carbs is the high calorie butter, margarine, cheese, salad dressings, cream, whole milk and such. Everything you have stated about a high carb, high sugar diet, leading to obesity and diabetes, I knew when I started out training at age 17. Yes, this isn't rocket science. You adopt a healthy lifestyle with a variety of healthy foods, keep your fats low, your carbs moderate and protein the same, and you will stay lean, and "healthy", with little chance for heart ,colon, cancer, gall bladder problems, and other diseases. From another medical journal, not too old, which I'm sure you will say is only one persons opinion again...................The association between dietary fat consumption and risk of cancer, especially colon, breast, prostate, and ovary cancer, has been debated for many years. Ecologic studies over the past 30 years have demonstrated the correlation of greater dietary fat intake with higher mortality due to various cancers. Migrant studies also have shown that increased fat consumption may be associated with increased risk of cancer. Specific saturated fatty acids raise blood cholesterol levels and, thereby, increase the risk of atherosclerosis. Greater fat, intake is a major cause of obesity and hypertension, diabetes, and gallbladder disease. Higher fat intake may heighten the risk of breast cancer directly through increased blood estrogen levels and/or secondarily through increased obesity. The critical experimental studies to determine the effects of a low-fat diet on disease risk have not been completed, but reducing fat in the US diet has the potential to decrease morbidity and mortality substantially. ....................I have done this a lot longer than most, and trust me, I'm educated on the subject, and am living proof the lifestyle works. You will of course believe what has worked for you, the same as a rich man believing Donald Trump is a great president because he helped him save a million dollars. It will however, get you back in the end. And yes, I do understand the difference between a correlative study and one that proves a causal relationship. We went through that in grammar school. Cause and effect, just like everything that happens in the world on a daily basis. Like people dying from high fat diets. I have eaten on a daily and weekly basis for all of my life, and especially from age 17 to now 64, pasta, potatoes, corn, whole wheat bread and cereals, cereals and bread made from rice, sweet potatoes, most vegetables and fruits, and have maintained a body fat percentage, from age 18 to 55, of 4-6%, and after about 8%, because of lesser activity in the gym until I find a good one here in Isaan. My resting pulse is 58, blood pressure of 115/54, and cholesterol of 130 or less.

Edited August 23, 2020 by fredwiggy

[cyril sneer]

14 hours ago, Sujo said:

Id actually like to put on weight. Spent the last 2 months doing nothing but lazing at home watching bad movies, eating steak and chips, out for beers every night.

 

Went from 72kg to 73kg. Not happy.

I envy you

[fredwiggy]

Just now, cyril sneer said:

I envy you

The only way for a hard gainer (which is what you're called) to gain weight is by weight training and increased protein intake. This can come in a healthy manner by buying a good quality protein powder, and mixing it in a blender with fruit, peanut butter (no sugar) and either milk (if you're not lactose intolerant) or soymilk. Use squats, leg curls, bench, overhead press, pulldowns, rows and curls as your main exercises and keep the reps under 12 for upper body and 15 for legs. Eat 3 meals a day and drink the protein drinks between meals. Get at least 7 hours of sleep and you should put on muscle, which is what you want and not just fat .

[DrTuner]

4 hours ago, fredwiggy said:

The only way for a hard gainer (which is what you're called) to gain weight is by weight training and increased protein intake. This can come in a healthy manner by buying a good quality protein powder, and mixing it in a blender with fruit, peanut butter (no sugar) and either milk (if you're not lactose intolerant) or soymilk. Use squats, leg curls, bench, overhead press, pulldowns, rows and curls as your main exercises and keep the reps under 12 for upper body and 15 for legs. Eat 3 meals a day and drink the protein drinks between meals. Get at least 7 hours of sleep and you should put on muscle, which is what you want and not just fat .

I'd advice against it though. I was quite lean (56kg) before I started on weight training and supplements. Sure, I gained a lot of muscle and weight in two years (to 62kg), but then the weight kept on adding until I joined the ranks of people that need to look at their calory intake, now bobbing around 72kg. It was like a seal had broken. Lean & mean was better.

[Tagged]

7 minutes ago, DrTuner said:

I'd advice against it though. I was quite lean (56kg) before I started on weight training and supplements. Sure, I gained a lot of muscle and weight in two years (to 62kg), but then the weight kept on adding until I joined the ranks of people that need to look at their calory intake, now bobbing around 72kg. It was like a seal had broken. Lean & mean was better.

There is a thumb of rule, and that is you do not need supplements if your diet is optimal! Most people do not need suplements, but are to lazy or to stupid to do the ground work to make sure they do it propely. Balanced diet will always beat any made up complicated diet like keto, unless You do it for a short time of period. I shake my head over the new religious above here. I do understand the curiosity behind it, but from there to not understand this is only for a short period, and keep on living the religion, is far beyond my understanding. Well, some people need aa  for rest of their life to survive, others are fine by just doing the basics. 

 

Training heavy weights is good for your metabolism as long you stimulate your testosteoron, but at once you reach an surten comfortable level, you have to continue pushing harder to maintain it. Therefor do it naturally with basic high protein food, and balanced with other things. Basic is the key word and understand what basic is. 

[Snow Leopard]

What is wrong with a well rounded and balanced diet? Diet and Health Nazis get on my nerves.  I personally try to avoid a lot carbs and sugar because i gain weight but if you can eat these and be thin then its up to you. Same with meat, veg, etc. Only you know what makes you feel good and be healthy.