Majority of Scots support independence from UK - YouGov poll

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, Brigand said:

Galloway has it right when he says all Scottish people, whether in Scotland or not, should have a vote as many plan in the future to return and believe they should have input into it. People that live abroad as expats have the right to vote in elections by post, so why shouldn't that be the case for this one too? ... especially when a Malaysian student on a 5 year visa studying in Scotland gets a vote in the independence referendum like last time and Scots outside Scotland didn't. That, I'm afraid, is total nonsense and SNP BS ... along with every idiotic 16 year-old voting too. 

If you removed the votes of EU citizens and those not born in Scotland then the last referendum would have resulted in independence. 

Now unionists want to game the vote again to suit their ends.

Whats next? You can only vote if you are a conservative donor? 

 

 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, sanuk711 said:

If you want to Pick Nicola Ferguson Sturgeon as your anointed leader, I would try to download the BBC program from a few nights ago--- "The Trial of Alex Salmond." She certainly tried to do a number on him--just in case he ever thought about coming back. From the one compliant, it would seem that 10 women suddenly remembered they had been assaulted , all knew each other and Ms Sturgeon--so 14 charges.

In an age where it is so difficult to prosecute a sex crime without 3rd party collaboration,  where so many crimes do not come to trial. One of the ridicule's charges was that he placed his hand on a woman's knee for the duration of the car ride**. -Sexual misconduct.

Half way through the trial Ms Sturgeon started a Go Fund me page for the women!-- I mean what was that about? when they had nothing to pay as the prosecution cost them nothing. Anyway £87,000 to them. None of the women were named or shown, they gave evidence behind a screen--Alex Salmond, he's finished.

 

Daily Mail-**Woman C said her husband was in the front seat next to Mr Salmond's driver while she sat next to Mr Salmond in the back. She said Mr Salmond put his hand on her leg, above her knee. She said she had been "embarrassed" by it and hoped he would move his hand - but claimed he had instead left it on her leg until they arrived at their destination.

 

 

BBC--17 August--In March 2020, Scotland’s former first minister Alex Salmond emerges from the High Court in Edinburgh, cleared of 14 charges of sexual misconduct. The verdict concludes one of the most dramatic trials Britain has ever seen. Throughout the film, BBC looks back at Alex Salmond’s political career and examines the growing rift between him and his former protege, Nicola Sturgeon. As Salmond prepares to take the stand, these divisions come to the fore, and some of his allies allege that there is a conspiracy at the heart of the Scottish government to stop Salmond returning to politics.

Odd how they failed to report evidence for the defense isn't it?

The entire thing was a stitch up organised by a civil servant sent up by Westminster.

But we expect nothing else from Perfidious Albion.

[sanuk711]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Odd how they failed to report evidence for the defense isn't it?

The entire thing was a stitch up organised by a civil servant sent up by Westminster.

But we expect nothing else from Perfidious Albion.

I think I know the guy Rookiescot........he is over the water working Trump at the moment..............................

[7by7]

6 hours ago, evadgib said:

There's something a lot better than that brewing ????

Is this the event of ""of substantial historic significance" happening within walking distance of my abode you mentioned on Sunday?

 

Remember, the one only you know about that you refuse to elaborate upon?

 

Doubtless you're still hoping something will happen before the end of the month so you can then claim that's what you meant!

[vogie]

Can any SNP supporter tell me if this is what nationalism is all about, we have had 'England out of Scotland" now this, what next. Can you imagine anyone in England with banners saying similar things, we'd all be locked up. Please tell me that you are embarrassed by these mindless human beings. You may not like the Tories but some of your fellow Scots actually vote for them, are these Scots the traitors that keep being mentioned, be carefull of which road you chose.

 

 

 

 

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Is this the event of ""of substantial historic significance" happening within walking distance of my abode you mentioned on Sunday?

 

Remember, the one only you know about that you refuse to elaborate upon?

 

Doubtless you're still hoping something will happen before the end of the month so you can then claim that's what you meant!

That's the one 49 (but it ain't just me wot knows about it ???? )

⌛    

[evadgib]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Odd how they failed to report evidence for the defense isn't it?

The entire thing was a stitch up organised by a civil servant sent up by Westminster.

But we expect nothing else from Perfidious Albion.

....& yet you didn't know about Boris & the EU extn letter....?

Edited August 20, 2020 by evadgib

[Rookiescot]

43 minutes ago, vogie said:

Can any SNP supporter tell me if this is what nationalism is all about, we have had 'England out of Scotland" now this, what next. Can you imagine anyone in England with banners saying similar things, we'd all be locked up. Please tell me that you are embarrassed by these mindless human beings. You may not like the Tories but some of your fellow Scots actually vote for them, are these Scots the traitors that keep being mentioned, be carefull of which road you chose.

 

 

 

 

Man you getting desperate now Vogie.

It was not long ago we had several Brexiteer posters on here calling Remainers traitors remember? You must remember Vogie because you used to upvote the posts.

Now we have this faux outrage over an invented anti English sentiment in Scotland which only exists in the minds of deluded unionists and the right wing media.

 

Its a self defeating narrative. After all. IF the majority in Scotland hate the English (the last 6 polls have shown support for independence at over 50 %) why are you so desperate to keep the union together? Surely if such a scenario existed it would be better for all concerned to end the union.

If there was widespread hatred for the English in Scotland where are the daily headlines in the unionist media describing how yet another poor guy was beaten senseless in the street by a gang of roving independence supporters just because he was English?

Where are all the stories of people being hounded out of their jobs and homes just because of their nationality?

They dont exist. Thats because your invented hatred of the English does not exist.

Why do we have groups like English Scots for yes campaigning for independence? 

http://www.englishscotsforyes.org/

 

The VAST majority of Scots who want independence do not burn flags, carry banners saying English out or indeed call anyone a traitor.

 

Scottish independence is not about England or the English. 

[Scott]

A baiting post has been reported and removed.  

[cleopatra2]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Can any SNP supporter tell me if this is what nationalism is all about, we have had 'England out of Scotland" now this, what next. Can you imagine anyone in England with banners saying similar things, we'd all be locked up. Please tell me that you are embarrassed by these mindless human beings. You may not like the Tories but some of your fellow Scots actually vote for them, are these Scots the traitors that keep being mentioned, be carefull of which road you chose.

 

 

 

 

You must have missed 

' Tory Scum get out of Brum ' and worse at the 2016 party conference.

[sungod]

On 8/16/2020 at 12:17 AM, hugh mckee said:

 

in the short term Scottish independence is going to cost billions, Scottish people are renowned for their financial astuteness,

Oh Hugh, made my day mate. I do support the Union, but that quote is just so funny.

 

Financial astuteness versus Jocks being tight as <deleted> ????  Brilliant!

[sungod]

Sorry, just have to add another one, ever heard a Jock complain about austerity?

 

(I'm having a playful dig)

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Can any SNP supporter tell me if this is what nationalism is all about, we have had 'England out of Scotland" now this, what next. Can you imagine anyone in England with banners saying similar things, we'd all be locked up. Please tell me that you are embarrassed by these mindless human beings. You may not like the Tories but some of your fellow Scots actually vote for them, are these Scots the traitors that keep being mentioned, be carefull of which road you chose.

 

 

 

 

Is there any indication of the protesters' feelings in regards to independence? I can see that they don't like the Nasty Party but that is not a quality restricted to independence supporters. 

[RuamRudy]

7 hours ago, vogie said:

Ok, so the knuckle dragging racists of the EDL represent everything that is Brexit? Is that what you are saying? Well, if the cap fits...

 

I am not saying that at all, you have put those words into my mouth and it is a slick attempt at deflection, this topic has nothing to do with the EDL, we are talking about the SNP. But since we're here, I have numurous photos of the painty faced followers of Sturgeons blue brigade setting fire to our Union Flag, can you oblige and show me any English lighting the Saltire?

You seem to be getting England and the UK confused - not surprising, of course. I have heard many, many times over the years people conflate England and the UK. But the Union flag is not the flag of England. Of course, that does not make it's destruction any less petty or pathetic, but to suggest that this is anything other than an low brow attack on the union which many seek to end is tenuous. 

[elliss]

 

 The Majority of the British people .

Would  they support Scottish Independence.

Do we want the Scots in, or out of the UK ..? 

   

Edited August 20, 2020 by elliss

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, elliss said:

 

 The Majority of the British people .

Would  they support Scottish Independence.

Do we want the Scots in, or out of the UK ..? 

   

That is a very valid question but unfortunately nobody is asking it. Another question nobody is asking - why is there no Secretary of State for England?

[7by7]

 

3 hours ago, evadgib said:

That's the one 49 (but it ain't just me wot knows about it ???? )

⌛    

Then as it's no secret, why not reveal all now?

 

That way, when it happens we'll all be forced to recognise your brilliant inside knowledge!

 

But you can't do that of course; you obviously do not know of such an event. Instead you're hoping an event "of substantial historic significance" happens "within walking distance" of where I live so you'll be able to claim that's the event you meant.

 

[vogie]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

You seem to be getting England and the UK confused - not surprising, of course. I have heard many, many times over the years people conflate England and the UK. But the Union flag is not the flag of England. Of course, that does not make it's destruction any less petty or pathetic, but to suggest that this is anything other than an low brow attack on the union which many seek to end is tenuous. 

Not confused at all, but I see when I ask you a question it always goes unanswered or a massive deflection. I have said before that my paternal grandfather was born in the Gorbals, my maternal grandmother was born in Wales so I do have nothing but respect for our union.

But no matter what is put to nationalists they will always deny, deny and thrice deny, the problem with nationalism is the nats consider themselves to be morally superior to everyone who disagrees with them as is shown time after time on here, any post they don't like, that poster immediately deemed a liar. 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, elliss said:

 

 The Majority of the British people .

Would  they support Scottish Independence.

Do we want the Scots in, or out of the UK ..? 

   

 I'm English and a unionist; but I believe what the rest of us British support is irrelevant.

 

Enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement is the principle that any decision that Northern Ireland should leave the UK and unite with the Republic is the people of Northern Ireland and theirs alone.

 

The Northern Irish have that right to decide for themselves, why can't the Scots?

[7by7]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

That is a very valid question but unfortunately nobody is asking it. Another question nobody is asking - why is there no Secretary of State for England?

 

There is; as part of the remit of the Home Secretary.

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Not confused at all, but I see when I ask you a question it always goes unanswered or a massive deflection. I have said before that my paternal grandfather was born in the Gorbals, my maternal grandmother was born in Wales so I do have nothing but respect for our union.

But no matter what is put to nationalists they will always deny, deny and thrice deny, the problem with nationalism is the nats consider themselves to be morally superior to everyone who disagrees with them as is shown time after time on here, any post they don't like, that poster immediately deemed a liar. 

Not true - posters are only called liars when they repeatedly post lies. 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

There is; as part of the remit of the Home Secretary.

Is that in a formal context or the result of the devolution agreements? I have no reason for asking other than genuine curiosity. 

[RayC]

12 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Then I am not sure I understood your point.

12 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But Cameron initiated the Brexit vote with the support of barely 1/3 of the country. The SNP got 45% of the vote at the last GE and are predicted to get more than 50% at the Holyrood election. If 36% is good enough to bring us Brexit, 50%+ is surely enough to secure an even more definitive referendum?

 

I apologise but I'm not sure how better to articulate things. I'll have another go. If I understand things correctly, the justification for a second referendum seems to be that Brexit has changed things fundamentally and that, therefore, the 2014 result no longer has validity? This seems to be a reasonable argument to me. However, imo any new referendum on independence must therefore also contain a clause linking independence with (application for) membership of the EU: You contend that these are two separate issues, and that there should firstly, be an independence referendum and, if Scotland becomes independent, then EU membership should be decided upon later by a separate process? If this is the case, then presumably the question posed to the Scottish electorate will be (almost) identical to the one posed in 2014? If one omits the effect of the Brexit referendum, then circumstances are pretty much the same, and imo 6 years is too short a period to rerun exactly the same process and question. As an aside, this highlights why I am against referendums. Unless one side has an overwhelming majority, they usually do not heal but, instead, make the divide larger.

 

Like it not - and I think that it is safe to say that neither of us likes it - Brexit was delivered as a result of the 2016 referendum. You appear to suggest that the referendum (process) itself lacks validity because the Tory government did not have majority (>50%) popular support (only 37% voted Tory). If so, then just about every UK or devolved government since Atlee's has lacked legitimacy. In particular, presumably you will agree that the 2011 SNP government lacked legitimacy when it demanded the initial independence referendum, as it received only 45% of the popular vote? 

 

I am no fan of 'Call me Dave' and I believe that his misguided attempts to fortify his position within the Tory party were the catalyst for the chaos and fractured state of the UK now, but he had a mandate - and indeed an obligation - to call the call the 2016 referendum based on the Tory manifesto. You have suggested that the SNP is under a similar obligation vis-a-vis a second independence referendum in one of your previous posts. I'm afraid that you can't have it both ways.

 

12 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Once in a generation - it really smacks of desperation when the only justification people can trot out to defend the union is to rely upon an off the cuff remark that has no legal basis in the procedure.

It is not my justification for the union but it does highlights an important point: Firstly, that if we must have referendums, then the 'rules of the game' should be explicit and unambiguous at the outset e.g. how long the result is binding for; what type of circumstance negates the process, etc. Yes there will, no doubt, be unforeseen circumstances but no reason not to try to tie things down as much as possible. 

 

It is disingenuous to suggest that Salmond did not realise what he was saying. He is (was?) an experienced and skillful politician. 

 

Tbh - and please don't take this or what follows as flippant; that is not my intention:  I'm fairly indifferent to Scottish independence. To use an analogy: I have a colleague who I like, but do not see outside of work. He announces that he is leaving. I'm sad to see him go and part of me wishes he would stay. However, he thinks it best, so we wish each other luck and get on with our lives.

 

So why am I engaged in this discussion? That's a question I'm now asking myself! I guess that I have too much time on my hands for some reason!?

 

12 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But regardless, democracy is surely the deliverable of a popular mandate? The precursor is irrelevant -

Doesn't this rather contradict your point re Cameron and the Brexit referendum?

 

12 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

if the people want it, they should get it.

 But not at the expense of a functioning society. There has to be stability to allow governments to govern. You cannot continuously ask people for their opinion, otherwise we will end up with anarchy. 

 

12 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

There is no need to conflate with brexit - while related in terms of one fueling the other, they are very separate matters. 

 

This is where we came in ..... I think that we will have to agree to disagree.

[adammike]

31 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

I apologise but I'm not sure how better to articulate things. I'll have another go. If I understand things correctly, the justification for a second referendum seems to be that Brexit has changed things fundamentally and that, therefore, the 2014 result no longer has validity? This seems to be a reasonable argument to me. However, imo any new referendum on independence must therefore also contain a clause linking independence with (application for) membership of the EU: You contend that these are two separate issues, and that there should firstly, be an independence referendum and, if Scotland becomes independent, then EU membership should be decided upon later by a separate process? If this is the case, then presumably the question posed to the Scottish electorate will be (almost) identical to the one posed in 2014? If one omits the effect of the Brexit referendum, then circumstances are pretty much the same, and imo 6 years is too short a period to rerun exactly the same process and question. As an aside, this highlights why I am against referendums. Unless one side has an overwhelming majority, they usually do not heal but, instead, make the divide larger.

 

Like it not - and I think that it is safe to say that neither of us likes it - Brexit was delivered as a result of the 2016 referendum. You appear to suggest that the referendum (process) itself lacks validity because the Tory government did not have majority (>50%) popular support (only 37% voted Tory). If so, then just about every UK or devolved government since Atlee's has lacked legitimacy. In particular, presumably you will agree that the 2011 SNP government lacked legitimacy when it demanded the initial independence referendum, as it received only 45% of the popular vote? 

 

I am no fan of 'Call me Dave' and I believe that his misguided attempts to fortify his position within the Tory party were the catalyst for the chaos and fractured state of the UK now, but he had a mandate - and indeed an obligation - to call the call the 2016 referendum based on the Tory manifesto. You have suggested that the SNP is under a similar obligation vis-a-vis a second independence referendum in one of your previous posts. I'm afraid that you can't have it both ways.

 

It is not my justification for the union but it does highlights an important point: Firstly, that if we must have referendums, then the 'rules of the game' should be explicit and unambiguous at the outset e.g. how long the result is binding for; what type of circumstance negates the process, etc. Yes there will, no doubt, be unforeseen circumstances but no reason not to try to tie things down as much as possible. 

 

It is disingenuous to suggest that Salmond did not realise what he was saying. He is (was?) an experienced and skillful politician. 

 

Tbh - and please don't take this or what follows as flippant; that is not my intention:  I'm fairly indifferent to Scottish independence. To use an analogy: I have a colleague who I like, but do not see outside of work. He announces that he is leaving. I'm sad to see him go and part of me wishes he would stay. However, he thinks it best, so we wish each other luck and get on with our lives.

 

So why am I engaged in this discussion? That's a question I'm now asking myself! I guess that I have too much time on my hands for some reason!?

 

Doesn't this rather contradict your point re Cameron and the Brexit referendum?

 

 But not at the expense of a functioning society. There has to be stability to allow governments to govern. You cannot continuously ask people for their opinion, otherwise we will end up with anarchy. 

 

This is where we came in ..... I think that we will have to agree to disagree.

The only thing you need to understand is that the SNP only exists to gain independence,nothing more nothing less,no ifs and buts.Come the next election and they get a majority that's all they need to start in motion the separation from the rest of the UK.Westmister and any other Scottish MPs may put up a fight but they won't be able to stop it,after all it will be the will of the people.

As long as they do it lawfully the EU members will accept their application to join and they will probably have to use the Euro.Northern Ireland will soon have a majority to reunite the island of Ireland,the only thing that may be a spanner in the works is if the inevitable referendum in the Republic vote no.who gives a toss about Wales.

[Rookiescot]

5 hours ago, adammike said:

The only thing you need to understand is that the SNP only exists to gain independence,nothing more nothing less,no ifs and buts.Come the next election and they get a majority that's all they need to start in motion the separation from the rest of the UK.Westmister and any other Scottish MPs may put up a fight but they won't be able to stop it,after all it will be the will of the people.

As long as they do it lawfully the EU members will accept their application to join and they will probably have to use the Euro.Northern Ireland will soon have a majority to reunite the island of Ireland,the only thing that may be a spanner in the works is if the inevitable referendum in the Republic vote no.who gives a toss about Wales.

Absolutely agree with all you say except the last line.

Welsh support for independence stands at about 25%. It was about the same level in Scotland about 7 years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jan/23/support-scottish-independence-slumps-lowest

 

If Wales sees a successful independent Scotland and united Ireland who can say what will happen. 

[quake]

9 hours ago, elliss said:

 

 The Majority of the British people .

Would  they support Scottish Independence.

Do we want the Scots in, or out of the UK ..? 

   

Out, and take that bloody Mel Gibson as well. 

[evadgib]

9 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 I'm English and a unionist; but I believe what the rest of us British support is irrelevant.

 

Enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement is the principle that any decision that Northern Ireland should leave the UK and unite with the Republic is the people of Northern Ireland and theirs alone.

 

The Northern Irish have that right to decide for themselves, why can't the Scots?

How about the only country in the union never to have been asked & who also are the only country in Europe without a parliament?

[owl sees all]

It would be a good idea to ask the people of England if they would like independence. Get rid of the hangers-on. And while we are in reform mode; House of Lord, history, BBC, PPV, Monarchy, stripped of everything, and chuck the Welsh teams out of our footy leagues.

 

Scotland could do a lot worse than go it alone. They should - at the very least - address the situation where a handful of Englishmen, own 40% of Scotland. Absolutely criminal. Go, Scotland go!!!!

[evadgib]

9 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

Then as it's no secret, why not reveal all now?

 

That way, when it happens we'll all be forced to recognise your brilliant inside knowledge!

 

But you can't do that of course; you obviously do not know of such an event. Instead you're hoping an event "of substantial historic significance" happens "within walking distance" of where I live so you'll be able to claim that's the event you meant.

 

All in good time 49, in the meantime please continue giving everyone a good laugh with your continued pomposity ????

[transam]

5 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

It would be a good idea to ask the people of England if they would like independence. Get rid of the hangers-on. And while we are in reform mode; House of Lord, history, BBC, PPV, Monarchy, stripped of everything, and chuck the Welsh teams out of our footy leagues.

 

Scotland could do a lot worse than go it alone. They should - at the very least - address the situation where a handful of Englishmen, own 40% of Scotland. Absolutely criminal. Go, Scotland go!!!!

And who owns a vast amount of UK land etc, that are not even from the UK. Arabs, so doesn't matter where you come from, if you got the dosh, buy it...????