Frequency Control for iPhone and IPad charging

[Pilotman]

After much research, I think that the lack of consistency in the frequency of mains power is impacting my ability to charge my Apple products.  Is there a gizmo on the market that can help this situation, a kind of frequency stabilizer? Not sure if such a thing exists. 

[sometimewoodworker]

45 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

After much research, I think that the lack of consistency in the frequency of mains power is impacting my ability to charge my Apple products. 

Virtually all, specially Apple, chargers can cope with 50~60Hz. What is the range of frequency you are seeing? The voltage will effect the charge speed. I doubt that there is any significant frequency variation or that it makes any difference. You need to ask in the electrical forum for a better answer. 
 

FWIW any UPS will work when running on its battery.

[sandyf]

I would doubt very much if frequency variations had much effect on charging.

You haven't really said what the problem is, too slow or not at all? Different chargers, different outlets,etc.

An easy alternative is to charge from a usb source such as a powerpack, TV or computer. On my laptop one of the usb ports is on even when the computer is off and I usually use that.

In this climate trickle charging is better for the battery than rapid charging.

[sometimewoodworker]

17 minutes ago, sandyf said:

In this climate trickle charging is better for the battery than rapid charging.

A slow charge is always better for battery life as long as you don’t over charge.

[Crossy]

As noted above frequency is unlikely to have any effect unless it's WAY off, even Thailand's mains is pretty stable in this respect (I'm assuming you're not on a private power grid).

 

I would also be surprised if the voltage makes much odds either, pretty well every charger, either branded or off-brand, is good for 90-250V, 50-60Hz.

 

@Pilotman what is pushing you towards a diagnosis of frequency issues?

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, Crossy said:

 

I would also be surprised if the voltage makes much odds either, pretty well every charger, either branded or off-brand is good for 90-250V, 50-60Hz.

 

Having spent many years travelling between Japan (100V) and Thailand I can tell you that in my experience the same multi voltage charger certainly was faster in Thailand. I never did a like for like test so can’t tell by how much but it was noticeable, maybe 10%~30%. They were virtually always Apple chargers, so top quality and charging the same products.

[Pilotman]

20 minutes ago, Crossy said:

As noted above frequency is unlikely to have any effect unless it's WAY off, even Thailand's mains is pretty stable in this respect (I'm assuming you're not on a private power grid).

 

I would also be surprised if the voltage makes much odds either, pretty well every charger, either branded or off-brand, is good for 90-250V, 50-60Hz.

 

@Pilotman what is pushing you towards a diagnosis of frequency issues?

Difficult to explain, but despite changing charging leads, extension leads and batteries, all of a sudden none of my apple  products will charge at home.  They do it elsewhere, but not at home. Then they will one day and not the next.  I cannot think of any other explanation other than in some way its the power supply.  I have checked the voltage and that is stable, so I have run out of ideas. 

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, Pilotman said:

Difficult to explain, but despite changing charging leads, extension leads and batteries, all of a sudden none of my apple  products will charge at home.  They do it elsewhere, but not at home. Then they will one day and not the next.  I cannot think of any other explanation other than in some way its the power supply.  I have checked the voltage and that is stable, so I have run out of ideas. 

Do you have different chargers?

 

When you hear hoofbeats think horses not zebras

Edited August 16, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, Pilotman said:

Difficult to explain, but despite changing charging leads, extension leads and batteries, all of a sudden none of my apple  products will charge at home.  They do it elsewhere, but not at home. Then they will one day and not the next.  I cannot think of any other explanation other than in some way its the power supply.  I have checked the voltage and that is stable, so I have run out of ideas. 

Do you have anything else with a rechargeable battery, like a torch, fan, drill etc, that work ok. Chargers tend to work on the same principle so unlikely to be the supply and if it was it would be very unlikely it didn't show up in some other way. Do you use genuine chargers and when you checked elsewhere was it with the same chargers?

 

It is possible you could be suffering from low voltage but you say you checked that.

The rate of charge can vary quite significantly with the current available from the charger and I think most phones now charge at about 2 amps. I mentioned that I normally use a usb source but that is only about half an amp, if my phone has fairly low charge the usb is no good. I get a message that time to charge is in days, not hours.

May be worth looking again at the voltage, not that easy to check without a recorder, as it can vary at different times of the day particularly in a rural area.

Some years ago I built an oven for Team Lotus and Colin Chapman rung me up complaining his office had become a disco, when the oven power came on the lights dimmed right down. I have heard of similar problems here in Thailand with people using welding equipment in the area.

Good luck.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Having spent many years travelling between Japan (100V) and Thailand I can tell you that in my experience the same multi voltage charger certainly was faster in Thailand. I never did a like for like test so can’t tell by how much but it was noticeable, maybe 10%~30%. They were virtually always Apple chargers, so top quality and charging the same products.

That is quite understandable. The charge rate is dependent on current and at half the voltage the current would be a lot less resulting in a slower charge.

The voltage range only means it will accept that variation without damage. It doesn't mean that the rated current will be available throughout that range.

[Pilotman]

Thank s everyone, I will keep investigating.  I am away for a few days so I will check with hotel power and see what the score is.  It does seem to be confined to my house, so not an Apple problem necessarily,  but I have no issues with the electrics other than this. It doesn't seem to be related to the loads that the system is dealing with, so I'm stumped. My Thai android phone has no problem charging.  

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

That is quite understandable. The charge rate is dependent on current and at half the voltage the current would be a lot less resulting in a slower charge.

The voltage range only means it will accept that variation without damage. It doesn't mean that the rated current will be available throughout that range.

If the output voltage is seriously effected by the input voltage is dependent on the design of the electronics. 
 

Quote

Unlike most other appliances, switched mode power supplies tend to be constant power devices, drawing more current as the line voltage reduces.

It is absolutely possible to design a charger where that range of input voltage has no effect on the output voltage and current. The cost, size and longevity of such a design is a rather different matter.

 

As these are switched mode power supplies the internal voltage and frequency is rather higher than mains and can be controlled. So a simple ½ the input voltage = ½ the output voltage shows a  deficiency  of knowledge of some basic electronic theory, doesn’t it? 

Edited August 17, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

If the output voltage is seriously effected by the input voltage is dependent on the design of the electronics. 
 

It is absolutely possible to design a charger where that range of input voltage has no effect on the output voltage and current. The cost, size and longevity of such a design is a rather different matter.

 

As these are switched mode power supplies the internal voltage and frequency is rather higher than mains and can be controlled. So a simple ½ the input voltage = ½ the output voltage shows a  deficiency  of knowledge of some basic electronic theory, doesn’t it? 

I wouldn't disagree with what you say. Phone chargers have a rated output, my current one is 5V - 2A and it is my understanding as they are budget devices there is a commercial tradeoff and are constant output voltage devices, in other words if the input voltage was reduced there would still be 5V but at a reduced output current. In real terms this would be seen as a slower charging rate.

On the basis you can't get more out than you put in, to maintain the 2A output at a reduced input voltage, the input current would have to be increased meaning some financial penalty. 

As I said it is my understanding regarding these devices and quite happy to accept a more informed opinion.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

On the basis you can't get more out than you put in, to maintain the 2A output at a reduced input voltage, the input current would have to be increased meaning some financial penalty. 

There is no financial penalty with regard to the PEA/MEA cost of reduced voltage requiring an increase in amps drawn. There is a cost in the device design and components.

 

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

it is my understanding as they are budget devices

No, they are absolutely not budget devices, you can get a PSU with the same spec for very much less. They are a quality product, though of course there are better more expensive ones.

[sandyf]

10 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

There is no financial penalty with regard to the PEA/MEA cost of reduced voltage requiring an increase in amps drawn. There is a cost in the device design and components.

 

No, they are absolutely not budget devices, you can get a PSU with the same spec for very much less. They are a quality product, though of course there are better more expensive ones.

Do I take it you are claiming they are constant output power devices, constant output voltage and current.

My theory may be dated, I was taught thermionic valves, but you cannot change basic laws of physics.

A constant output power device would require constant input power which would mean an input impedance that dynamically adjusted to voltage variation, not an easy ask.

 

"No, they are absolutely not budget devices,"

A phone charger is a couple of hundred baht, what could be more budget than that.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

 

"No, they are absolutely not budget devices,"

A phone charger is a couple of hundred baht, what could be more budget than that.

The OP has Apple devices so no the chargers are NOT a couple of hundred “18W USB-C Power Adapter18W USB-C Power Adapter” is ฿1,1900 and a “Apple 5W USB Power Adapter” is 690 so they are not the cheap c*** budget chargers.

 

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

A constant output power device would require constant input power

No. The input is variable.

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

which would mean an input impedance that dynamically adjusted to voltage variation, not an easy ask.

I didn’t say anything about how easy it is.

 

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

My theory may be dated, I was taught thermionic valves, but you cannot change basic laws of physics.

It’s not your theory that is dated but the designs and ease of custom programming chips and design of custom electronics.

 

As to the output certainly the voltage is constant however it’s clear that the maximum available current is variable. Apple devices vary the current draw depending on battery charge, time of day etc.

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The OP has Apple devices so no the chargers are NOT a couple of hundred “18W USB-C Power Adapter18W USB-C Power Adapter” is ฿1,1900 and a “Apple 5W USB Power Adapter” is 690 so they are not the cheap c*** budget chargers.

 

No. The input is variable.

I didn’t say anything about how easy it is.

 

It’s not your theory that is dated but the designs and ease of custom programming chips and design of custom electronics.

 

As to the output certainly the voltage is constant however it’s clear that the maximum available current is variable. Apple devices vary the current draw depending on battery charge, time of day etc.

Those that try to play the my xxxx is bigger than your xxxx game usually end up playing with themselves.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Those that try to play the my xxxx is bigger than your xxxx game usually end up playing with themselves.

Making an argument about how poor cheap chargers are when the OP has Apple devices so clearly did not start with cheap chargers is clearly fishing, not paying attention or trying hard to prove a point that doesn’t exist.

 

Cheap chargers have shortcuts that may make them bad.

Apple does no supply cheap chargers.
 

Apple may make an unusually high profit margin but they still don’t supply cheap c**p or expensive c**p