UK minister surprised by Scottish independence referendum move

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

People seem to think the EU has a lot of influence, its mainly about trade and stuff. So they would be largely independent more so as now. Its stupid of any country (England included) to try to do it on your own when most trade blocks are more powerful then you.

 

So its only logical that the Scots and Irish would go for the EU.

A laugh a minute here today.

[JonnyF]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Did you not also predict that the Brexit negotiations would be a walk in the park, and that other countries would be lining up to sign lucrative, superior trade deals to those we enjoyed when within the EU?

An admirable deflection, even by your standards.

 

1. No, I suspected the EU would negotiate in bad faith, from the gutter. They proved me correct.

2. I believe we've signed over 20 now and have another 20 signed in principle. I didn't think they'd be superior, although some such as the Japan deal are superior in some regards.

 

Back to my point, do you think the EU is going to bend it's rules for the mighty Scotland and give them great terms for membership? ???? 

 

Or even equal to the terms the UK had? ????

 

Good luck with that. They'll throw you a rotten bone and you can take it or leave it. You won't be in a position of strength, 5.5 million people sitting up there in the cold with no land borders to the EU, no hard border with the UK, question marks over future trading with your biggest customer (the UK) and a mountain of debt that breaks the EU's own rules on membership. Not exactly an attractive proposition are you?

[robblok]

10 minutes ago, nauseus said:

A laugh a minute here today.

That is what you think they become more independent as they cut out the English. They are in the EU already so that does not change. They will get more power. I really hope they get a vote. They deserve to make their choice. 

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

That is what you think they become more independent as they cut out the English. They are in the EU already so that does not change. They will get more power. I really hope they get a vote. They deserve to make their choice. 

You appear to want the Scots to leave the UK more than the Scots do. They have had a vote and even though they were lied to and didn't know what they were voting for, they still voted by a very large margin to remain within our union.

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, robblok said:

That is what you think they become more independent as they cut out the English. They are in the EU already so that does not change. They will get more power. I really hope they get a vote. They deserve to make their choice. 

Um..who's  in the EU already?

[rott]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

As far as I am aware there has been no decisions of that nature by either devolved nation since Westminster decided to change the status of the UK, so maybe you can provide some support for that assertion.

A referendum in Scotland and the same in Northern Ireland. 

[RuamRudy]

26 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

1. No, I suspected the EU would negotiate in bad faith, from the gutter. They proved me correct.

So which partner in any Scotland / rUK negotiations would you suspect from negotiating in bad faith? One with a reputation for ignoring past pledges and for flouting international law certainly sounds dubious.

 

28 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

2. I believe we've signed over 20 now and have another 20 signed in principle. I didn't think they'd be superior, although some such as the Japan deal are superior in some regards.

Have we? I genuinely don't know - Lesotho and the Turks & Cacos maybe, but any of the scale that the EU enjoyed? I think that you are right about Japan - producers of blue cheese are cock a hoop, although I am not sure if they have resolved the issue of the high prevalence of lactose intolerance in Japan.  

 

30 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Back to my point, do you think the EU is going to bend it's rules for the mighty Scotland and give them great terms for membership? ???? 

 

Or even equal to the terms the UK had? ????

Absolutely not - the sweet deal we have enjoyed for some time has been discarded by Brexit, but there is little of Brexit that makes sense so no point crying over spilt milk.

 

32 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Good luck with that. They'll throw you a rotten bone and you can take it or leave it. You won't be in a position of strength, 5.5 million people sitting up there in the cold with no land borders to the EU, no hard border with the UK, question marks over future trading with your biggest customer (the UK) and a mountain of debt that breaks the EU's own rules on membership. Not exactly an attractive proposition are you?

Time will tell, although your track record on predicting the future has been dire. Let's hope you maintain form. 

[RuamRudy]

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

You appear to want the Scots to leave the UK more than the Scots do. They have had a vote and even though they were lied to and didn't know what they were voting for, they still voted by a very large margin to remain within our union.

Not at all - the majority of Scots voted to leave the UK. However the franchise was extended to non Scots born people also, and they tipped the balance. So Scots have, since at least 2014, not wanted to be in a union with the rest of the UK. I think there can be few impartial observers who would blame us.

[robblok]

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

You appear to want the Scots to leave the UK more than the Scots do. They have had a vote and even though they were lied to and didn't know what they were voting for, they still voted by a very large margin to remain within our union.

I want the Scots to have a new choice now the situation has changed immensely. Not sure why people can't see the difference. Probably because they worry that the UK will splinter and have even less influence.

 

Its the Hight of hypocrisy that after such a major change the Scots don't get a new say.  Its like buying a car with certain specs and all of a sudden they put in a different engine (worse) and expect you to still buy the car. That is not how it works in the real world. 

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Not at all - the majority of Scots voted to leave the UK. However the franchise was extended to non Scots born people also, and they tipped the balance. So Scots have, since at least 2014, not wanted to be in a union with the rest of the UK. I think there can be few impartial observers who would blame us.

Would it be a fair to say that when the Scots had the 2014 referendum that you were also voting to leave the EU. 

Since when has the SNP and its followers been impartial, never mind any observers.

[vogie]

19 minutes ago, robblok said:

I want the Scots to have a new choice now the situation has changed immensely. Not sure why people can't see the difference. Probably because they worry that the UK will splinter and have even less influence.

 

Its the Hight of hypocrisy that after such a major change the Scots don't get a new say.  Its like buying a car with certain specs and all of a sudden they put in a different engine (worse) and expect you to still buy the car. That is not how it works in the real world. 

Yet the Scots were happy enough to vote to leave the UK which would have entailed leaving the EU, would it not?

[JonnyF]

24 minutes ago, robblok said:

I want the Scots to have a new choice now the situation has changed immensely. Not sure why people can't see the difference. Probably because they worry that the UK will splinter and have even less influence.

 

Its the Hight of hypocrisy that after such a major change the Scots don't get a new say.  Its like buying a car with certain specs and all of a sudden they put in a different engine (worse) and expect you to still buy the car. That is not how it works in the real world. 

Honestly Rob it seems like you have an intense dislike for the British, or more specifically the English.

 

I'm not sure whether an English guy offended you in a bar and you bear a grudge, or maybe you just have some distant Scottish ancestry which predisposes you to dislike us? ???? But your desire for the UK to break up is odd since it has nothing to do with you. You don't seem so passionate about Catalonian independence for example. And yet here you are every day cheering on the Scots to leave the UK. Odd.

[RuamRudy]

13 minutes ago, vogie said:

Would it be a fair to say that when the Scots had the 2014 referendum that you were also voting to leave the EU. 

 

I would liken it to invasive surgery - the incision is necessary to resolve the internal issue, but the incision will heal in time. 

[JonnyF]

35 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Time will tell, although your track record on predicting the future has been dire. Let's hope you maintain form. 

Well, I predicted Brexit and a massive Tory win at the last General Election so I'm not doing too badly compared to someone like, oh I don't know, YOU? ????

 

I'm also predicting no second Indyref in the next 10 years and you continuing to cry about it while wishing failure on the UK. Let's see how that prediction goes ????.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Well, I predicted Brexit and a massive Tory win at the last General Election so I'm not doing too badly compared to someone like, oh I don't know, YOU? ????

Those were the easy ones - it is the complete dog's dinner that has emerged afterwards, when we were promised nothing but sunny uplands and manna from heaven. That is what people voted for, and that is what has failed to transpire. 

 

3 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I'm also predicting no second Indyref in the next 10 years and you continuing to cry about it while wishing failure on the UK. Let's see how that prediction goes ????.

Failure on the UK? Not at all - while I don't want to be part of it, I have no reason to wish it to fail if the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland wish to remain under its umbrella. You see, while your hatred of the EU has poisoned you such that you wish it to fail even though you are no longer part of it, my dislike for the union doesn't mean that I want it to fail for those who remain within it. 

[sammieuk1]

I predict when they all sober up on Saturday afternoon we will all be friends again except for that fishy little cranky woman ????

[vogie]

20 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I would liken it to invasive surgery - the incision is necessary to resolve the internal issue, but the incision will heal in time. 

I think you have a mild case of obfuscation there RR. In reality it was more important to you to leave the UK/English than to remain in an institution that you love so dearly.

[rott]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I want the Scots to have a new choice now the situation has changed immensely. Not sure why people can't see the difference. Probably because they worry that the UK will splinter and have even less influence.

 

Its the Hight of hypocrisy that after such a major change the Scots don't get a new say.  Its like buying a car with certain specs and all of a sudden they put in a different engine (worse) and expect you to still buy the car. That is not how it works in the real world. 

Your fellow traveller Mr Rookiescot thinks an Englishman should not have a say here, so why are you still sticking your oar in. 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, rott said:

Your fellow traveller Mr Rookiescot thinks an Englishman should not have a say here, so why are you still sticking your oar in. 

Why not, I can have an opinion. But voting wise it should only be Scots of course who vote. 

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

Why not, I can have an opinion. But voting wise it should only be Scots of course who vote. 

But that is not strictly true now is it, a Scot can be working and living in England, or anywhere else for that matter and he is not allowed to vote on the future of his country. Whereas an alien just moved into Scotland is allowed to vote on something that they probably know very little about.

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

But that is not strictly true now is it, a Scot can be working and living in England, or anywhere else for that matter and he is not allowed to vote on the future of his country. Whereas an alien just moved into Scotland is allowed to vote on something that they probably know very little about.

Details need to be worked out of course, but as long as they get a vote its ok. I would say that Scots that work in the UK would vote against it (would make things harder for them).

 

But one should IMHO only those in Scotland who are Scottish have a vote. Immigrants can only vote if they have a passport of the country they live in ? I mean in my country only people with a Dutch passport can vote. I am not sure how it would work. There must be some way to make sure its just Scots that can vote. Aliens that are not naturalized should not be able to vote. 

[Rookiescot]

19 minutes ago, robblok said:

Details need to be worked out of course, but as long as they get a vote its ok. I would say that Scots that work in the UK would vote against it (would make things harder for them).

 

But one should IMHO only those in Scotland who are Scottish have a vote. Immigrants can only vote if they have a passport of the country they live in ? I mean in my country only people with a Dutch passport can vote. I am not sure how it would work. There must be some way to make sure its just Scots that can vote. Aliens that are not naturalized should not be able to vote. 

Those were not the rules in the last referendum. Anyone who had been resident in Scotland for 6 months prior to the vote had the right to.

It did not matter if they were immigrants from England or anywhere else.

For consistency I think the rules for the next one should be the same as the last. Including the question asked on the ballot paper.

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, robblok said:

Details need to be worked out of course, but as long as they get a vote its ok. I would say that Scots that work in the UK would vote against it (would make things harder for them).

 

But one should IMHO only those in Scotland who are Scottish have a vote. Immigrants can only vote if they have a passport of the country they live in ? I mean in my country only people with a Dutch passport can vote. I am not sure how it would work. There must be some way to make sure its just Scots that can vote. Aliens that are not naturalized should not be able to vote. 

Details need to be worked out of course, but as long as they get a vote its ok. I would say that Scots that work in the UK would vote against it (would make things harder for them).

Well do you think it is fair that a Scot living just over the border in England is not allowed a say on the future of his country, and of course it would "make it harder for them" that's why the SNP have done it, they do not like fairness.

And lowering the voting age to 16 was another disingenuous act from the SNP, and we all know how malleable the young are don't we, if there is going to be a game, let both sides have an equal opportunity and not have the dice stacked againgst the unionists before the kick off.

 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Those were not the rules in the last referendum. Anyone who had been resident in Scotland for 6 months prior to the vote had the right to.

It did not matter if they were immigrants from England or anywhere else.

For consistency I think the rules for the next one should be the same as the last. Including the question asked on the ballot paper.

I'll bet you do.????????????????

[RayC]

43 minutes ago, vogie said:

But that is not strictly true now is it, a Scot can be working and living in England, or anywhere else for that matter and he is not allowed to vote on the future of his country. Whereas an alien just moved into Scotland is allowed to vote on something that they probably know very little about.

Vogie, Am I correct in assuming that you think that overseas Scots should be allowed to vote in any forthcoming referendum on Scottish independence?

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

Details need to be worked out of course, but as long as they get a vote its ok. I would say that Scots that work in the UK would vote against it (would make things harder for them).

Well do you think it is fair that a Scot living just over the border in England is not allowed a say on the future of his country, and of course it would "make it harder for them" that's why the SNP have done it, they do not like fairness.

And lowering the voting age to 16 was another disingenuous act from the SNP, and we all know how malleable the young are don't we, if there is going to be a game, let both sides have an equal opportunity and not have the dice stacked againgst the unionists before the kick off.

 

 

Oddly you fail to mention EU citizens who were resident in Scotland were also able to vote.

Now they all pretty much voted against independence because of the threat to EU membership.

How do you think they will vote next time?

[Rookiescot]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

I'll bet you do.????????????????

So you think the rules should be changed for the next referendum?

 

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So you think the rules should be changed for the next referendum?

 

Err yah. When do you think the next referendum will be, and I'll give you 5 years either way?

[Rookiescot]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

Err yah. When do you think the next referendum will be, and I'll give you 5 years either way?

So in what way do you think the rules should be changed for the next referendum?

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, robblok said:

They left the EU.. did they not.. that wont change all they do now is decide how. Same will be done once the Scots and others break free from the UK. First there will be a decision to break free.. then later on what terms. 

That did not answer my question in any way. Thankyou.