Brexit brinkmanship: EU orders UK to scrap plan for treaty breach, UK refuses

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Strange, you have never mentioned your pension before.

Really!

I use it regularly, if the context is appropriate.

Or than maybe your post is suppose to be sarcastic.

 

[david555]

21 minutes ago, vogie said:

Strange, you have never mentioned your pension before.

now THAT is really sarcasm  I presume ????  but I amsure if you would know the figure on it , sarcasm would change to envy ….????

Edited September 11, 2020 by david555

[JonnyF]

13 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You’re pretty much alone with your creative definition of what constitutes good and bad faith. You could as well claim that elephants are small and green. You’re just ridiculing yourself, as so so often. Good luck finding an international court agreeing with you. 

 

Yes we will see if/when it goes to court. You lot predicted a Remain victory and a labour government so excuse me if I don't take your predictions about the court case too seriously. You have made losing a habit. The only thing you succeed at is whining on the internet.

 

In the meantime let's get on with this new legislation. Marvellous. The EU and Remainers can bleat all they like ????????. I'll be dancing in those salty tears.???? 

[vogie]

25 minutes ago, jonclark said:

Yes, but as a firm beleiver in the democratic process and the principles that underpin it, I accept the decision of the majority. However, many who voted to leave seem (it appears) rather disillusioned with the brexit process and the decisons of those who claim to be acting UKs interests, as a soveriegn nation.  Why is that I wonder. Could it be that their promises have turned out to be as shallow and vacuous as those of a snake oil salesperson? and their ability to deliver is just non-existant.  I may have wished the UK to remain in the EU, but having departed the UKs shores many, many years ago (an original Brexiter one might say) I have very little invested in the UK being in or out of the EU. Other than personal opinion. I lost the right to vote on such matters a long time ago.  

 

I think what Brexit has proven is the the UK and the British people are very easily divided and clearly are not as unified and strong as we like to think we are. A fact you have reinforced with your use of emojis. 

You may say that you accept democracy but by reading what you are posting it is saying something else, do you really accept democracy when a lot of your posts are insults at our leaders. The UK voted to leave the EU, the remainers could have accepted a half way house version of Brexit but they refused to vote for Mays Brino deal, you see when someone offers you a piece of pie, it is sometimes better to only take half, than hope the whole pie will come your way, greed has left you with no pie. You are just as instrumental in where we are today as much as the leavers, infact we could not have left without the help of the remainers.

 

[luckyluke]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

infact we could not have left without the help of the remainers.

Nice to admit that on your own you wouldn't have make it.

[herfiehandbag]

People here are talking about it going to "international courts". Could anyone suggest which court it would go to, bearing in mind any international court worth its salt would have to be truly independent - which rather removes any of the "European Courts" from the equation!

 

It is all about sovereignty isn't it? For me and many the whole bloody business, going back to the Maastricht Treaty and beyond, is all about sovereignty. The UK took back it's sovereignty and now it is exercising it. Domestic opponents can tick and winge, but the fact remains that they lost the various referendum and elections which led to this government being formed, with a primary purpose of taking us out of the UK.  European enthusiasts can tick and winge but the fact remains that the UK decided, through a democratic process, to take back that sovereignty and leave the EU. The UK's supreme court has ruled that Parliament cannot be bound by its predecessors signatures on treaties, that is a very clear UK constitutional point, and always has been. On matters of sovereignty Parliament is supreme, and is not bound by any other body or court, domestic, European or "International".

Edited September 11, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[evadgib]

4 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Nice to admit that on your own you wouldn't have make it.

...highlighting the total lack of 'losers consent'.

[luckyluke]

2 minutes ago, evadgib said:

...highlighting the total lack of 'losers consent'.

I can not answer, so I put a "Haha" emoticon.
It seems to be the way here.

[evadgib]

Two topical updates from HMG:

Quote

This is the Government’s legal position on the UK Internal Market Bill (“the Bill”) which was introduced on 9 September.

HMG Legal Position: UKIM Bill and Northern Ireland Protocol

 

& here's the other...

 

Quote

The Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee met today at Lancaster House, London. The meeting was chaired by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Michael Gove, and the European Commission Vice President, Maroš Šefčovič, alongside the co-chairs of the Committee, the Paymaster General, Penny Mordaunt, and Michel Barnier. Representatives from the Northern Ireland Executive and the EU 27 Member States also joined by videolink.

This meeting was an opportunity for both parties to set out their positions. Vice President Šefčovič detailed the European Union’s concerns, and requested that the UK withdraw the UK Internal Market Bill. The UK Government made clear that the legislative timetable for the Bill would continue as planned.

The UK Government reiterated its commitment to implementing the Withdrawal Agreement, including the Northern Ireland Protocol. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster updated the Committee on the significant steps already taken to implement the protocol, with investment to support Northern Ireland businesses and new IT systems. The UK Government also stressed its obligations to the citizens of Northern Ireland, its determination to uphold the constitutional status of Northern Ireland within the UK, and its responsibility to provide good governance for the whole United Kingdom. As co-guarantor, along with Ireland, of the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement, the Government’s commitment to that agreement remains absolute.....

Meeting of the Withdrawal Agreement Joint Committee on 10 September

Edited September 11, 2020 by evadgib

[Proboscis]

4 hours ago, terryw said:

The only people complaining are Remainers. <deleted>. Boris has the EU rattled.

Actually that is NOT true. The majority who voted in favor of Brexit did not vote for the UK to become a stand alone state with no trade treaties with anyone. If this legislation does go ahead and there is no trade deal with the EU and it is implemented, there will be no trade deal with the USA. Other countries will also be stand-offish. Why would anyone want to sign a trade deal with a government that signs a treaty only to break it within a year?

[melvinmelvin]

27 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

People here are talking about it going to "international courts". Could anyone suggest which court it would go to, bearing in mind any international court worth its salt would have to be truly independent - which rather removes any of the "European Courts" from the equation!

 

It is all about sovereignty isn't it? For me and many the whole bloody business, going back to the Maastricht Treaty and beyond, is all about sovereignty. The UK took back it's sovereignty and now it is exercising it. Domestic opponents can tick and winge, but the fact remains that they lost the various referendum and elections which led to this government being formed, with a primary purpose of taking us out of the UK.  European enthusiasts can tick and winge but the fact remains that the UK decided, through a democratic process, to take back that sovereignty and leave the EU. The UK's supreme court has ruled that Parliament cannot be bound by its predecessors signatures on treaties, that is a very clear UK constitutional point, and always has been. On matters of sovereignty Parliament is supreme, and is not bound by any other body or court, domestic, European or "International".

if any, it would have to be the one in The Hague, file a case before Xmas and you might get some feedback

within 3 years, (and; there are no sanctions available)

 

I hope the international law nutters on here note your comments on sovereignty and supremacy,

as of 1st January and hangover, UK law rules in UK and the national assembly and the cabinet are responsible to UK law,

not some odd treaty text

(a couple of exceptions exist)

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

6 hours ago, tribalfusion001 said:

The guy is a plank.

 

who is?

 

or are you one of these Asians having challenges with pronouncing and spelling prank corectly?

 

 

[Rimmer]

Some inflammatory posts and a multi quote post removed

[twocatsmac]

6 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

Actually that is NOT true. The majority who voted in favor of Brexit did not vote for the UK to become a stand alone state with no trade treaties with anyone. If this legislation does go ahead and there is no trade deal with the EU and it is implemented, there will be no trade deal with the USA. Other countries will also be stand-offish. Why would anyone want to sign a trade deal with a government that signs a treaty only to break it within a year?

I detect a hint of the old “they didn’t know what they were voting for” routine here. 

Also, you give little credit to prospective trading partners (countries) who are completely in tune with the situation and our motives.

 

The UK is a huge potential market place, buying in many more goods than it sells, get ready for Johnny foreigners queuing up to deal with Blighty.

[JusticeGB]

Now the EU is showing the true colours of the deal they actually want. After you leave you still have to obey the EU and the ECJ. That's why we voted to leave so that the EU doesn't rule the UK but the UK rules the UK. 

[jonclark]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

You may say that you accept democracy but by reading what you are posting it is saying something else, do you really accept democracy when a lot of your posts are insults at our leaders. The UK voted to leave the EU, the remainers could have accepted a half way house version of Brexit but they refused to vote for Mays Brino deal, you see when someone offers you a piece of pie, it is sometimes better to only take half, than hope the whole pie will come your way, greed has left you with no pie. You are just as instrumental in where we are today as much as the leavers, infact we could not have left without the help of the remainers.

 

Lol - suggesting an acceptance of democracy embodies an acceptance of 'our' leaders. Core to the democract principle is that our leaders are accountable to their people - both the remainers and leavers - all are equal! And when they act like cretins who push their own political ideologies as singluar and factual and then proceed to make a complete mess of their ideologies and promises to people during their campagins to make them leaders, an insult actually seems to be a rather light rebuke. If I had been as cavalier in my approach to my job, my employer would have handed me my P45 the very next day I walked through the office door. 

 

I think what you misunderstand is that despite me wishing the UK to remain, I have nothing invested in it either way. However, the UK government (s) - May and Johnson and their little band of merry elves, have been unable to deliver anything to the British public, other than confusion, contradiction and economic uncerteinty. Which you seem to think is the best way to get Brexit done. And that if anything goes wrong it is someone else fault....cause we won the referendum. 

[Laughing Gravy]

4 hours ago, robblok said:

However in the Scot independence thread they said the scots have to wait. Why do others have to uphold laws but you lot does not ? 

Obviously you do not know the history but like so many non Brits on here, who seem to be experts on the topic, on life in the UK and what is best for the UK. I will help you out.

 

It took 43 years to get a referendum on remaining in the EU even with all the bias towards remain and the 9 million pound spent on convincing the UK, to remain. Leave still won in 2016.

 

Scotland had a 'once in a lifetime referendum' to leave the UK or stay in 2014. Remain won. Now they want another one.

 

Unlike Holland and Ireland, referendums in the UK are not ignored. But also many people like me believe we shouldn't have another one because they didn't like the result

 

Now, no doubt the non Brits on here will continue to tell us Brits what is best for us, not only as it seems to be a trait but also it seems they have little better to to do, as their own countries seem to be so boring that they like informing us all how we should stay in the corrupt club called the EU.

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Laughing Gravy

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, edwinchester said:

Johnson, Gove et al the other Brexiteers negotiated this <deleted> deal, campaigned during an election of how great it was for the UK and then voted to accept it in a Parliamentary vote, it's their <deleted> deal! They are nothing but scheming, opportunist, duplicitous vermin.

Rubbish. It's still May's deal with a few tweaks. It would have taken at least another decade to agree a new one (with significant UK input) and that was not going to happen. 

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, jonclark said:

Lol - suggesting an acceptance of democracy embodies an acceptance of 'our' leaders. Core to the democract principle is that our leaders are accountable to their people - both the remainers and leavers - all are equal! And when they act like cretins who push their own political ideologies as singluar and factual and then proceed to make a complete mess of their ideologies and promises to people during their campagins to make them leaders, an insult actually seems to be a rather light rebuke. If I had been as cavalier in my approach to my job, my employer would have handed me my P45 the very next day I walked through the office door. 

 

I think what you misunderstand is that despite me wishing the UK to remain, I have nothing invested in it either way. However, the UK government (s) - May and Johnson and their little band of merry elves, have been unable to deliver anything to the British public, other than confusion, contradiction and economic uncerteinty. Which you seem to think is the best way to get Brexit done. And that if anything goes wrong it is someone else fault....cause we won the referendum. 

And there you have it, as a remainer the fault always lies at the British and never the EU, someone needs a reality check. Barnier is never going to agree to even start trade negotiations untill we give in to his impossible demands.

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Obviously you do not know the history but like so many non Brits on here, who seem to be experts on the topic, on life in the UK and what is best for the UK. I will help you out.

 

It took 43 years to get a referendum on remaining in the EU even with all the bias towards remain and the 9 million pound spent on convincing the UK, to remain. Leave still won in 2016.

 

Scotland had a 'once in a lifetime referendum' to leave the UK or stay in 2014. Remain won. Now they want another one.

 

Unlike Holland and Ireland, referendums in the UK are not ignored. But also many people like me believe we shouldn't have another one because they didn't like the result

 

Now, no doubt the non Brits on here will continue to tell us Brits what is best for us, not only as it seems to be a trait but also it seems they have little better to to do, as their own countries seem to be so boring that they like informing us all how we should stay in the corrupt club called the EU.

 

The situation has changed, don't you see that. Besides if the Brits that uphold the law the Scots can do the same.

 

Do you now see why sticking to agreements is important ? What i read is the Scots can officially have a new referendum in a few years. (by law) But if the Brits break laws and agreements why can't the Scots ?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, luckyluke said:

Maybe.
My Briton "friends" will soon be able to show me their new passport, and telling that they escape from the E.U. tyranny.

I will have to admit that we, Belgians, are still under the yoke of the E.U., and no new passport to show, but that I can show my pension.

Pension. I was wondering when that would pop out. Hurrah!

Edited September 11, 2020 by nauseus

[david555]

Just now, vogie said:

And there you have it, as a remainer the fault always lies at the British and never the EU, someone needs a reality check. Barnier is never going to agree to even start trade negotiations untill we give in to his impossible demands.

So why  you still keep sitting on that table then ?….. still hoping to a free " wildcard access" to the club ….?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, luckyluke said:

Really,

everything is relative.

For me I consider it a Flemish humor.

Maybe some will find it hilarious, and I will get a "Haha" emoticon. 

That one backfired then?

[jonclark]

Just now, vogie said:

And there you have it, as a remainer the fault always lies at the British and never the EU, someone needs a reality check. Barnier is never going to agree to even start trade negotiations untill we give in to his impossible demands.

And there you have it as a leaver the fault always lies at the EU and never us Brits.

 

We chose to leave them freely and democratically  Do you actualy think the EU is going to let us leave and still have access to their economic market on terms which we decide and are benificial to us?  - I think you need a reality check my bexiter friend. The EU is a collection of soverign nations (just like the UK) who collectively make decisions based on their collective benifit (just like the UK). 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, jonclark said:

Yes, but as a firm beleiver in the democratic process and the principles that underpin it, I accept the decision of the majority. However, many who voted to leave seem (it appears) rather disillusioned with the brexit process and the decisons of those who claim to be acting UKs interests, as a soveriegn nation.  Why is that I wonder. Could it be that their promises have turned out to be as shallow and vacuous as those of a snake oil salesperson? and their ability to deliver is just non-existant.  I may have wished the UK to remain in the EU, but having departed the UKs shores many, many years ago (an original Brexiter one might say) I have very little invested in the UK being in or out of the EU. Other than personal opinion. I lost the right to vote on such matters a long time ago.  

 

I think what Brexit has proven is the the UK and the British people are very easily divided and clearly are not as unified and strong as we like to think we are. A fact you have reinforced with your use of emojis. 

I suppose if you had enough emojis and put them in a line they would stretch across the whole country. Or you could just encircle both London and Glasgow with them?

[Laughing Gravy]

10 minutes ago, robblok said:

The situation has changed, don't you see that. Besides if the Brits that uphold the law the Scots can do the same.

 

Do you now see why sticking to agreements is important ? What i read is the Scots can officially have a new referendum in a few years. (by law) But if the Brits break laws and agreements why can't the Scots ?

Thank you for partially answering what I put. Obviously you didn't read what I said.

 

What situation has changed. We have a British Primeminister who isn't a remainer and is changing what the previous PM who is a remainer has done and will get it through parliament as law.

 

What about ignoring referendum results, no answer there.

 

Once in a lifetime referendum. Waited for 43 years to get a referendum and still won.

No comment there.  Quite selective eh.

 

Remainers and non Brits up in arms again.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Laughing Gravy

[robblok]

1 minute ago, jonclark said:

And there you have it as a leaver the fault always lies at the EU and never us Brits.

 

We chose to leave them freely and democratically  Do you actualy think the EU is going to let us leave and still have access to their economic market on terms which we decide and are benificial to us?  - I think you need a reality check my bexiter friend. The EU is a collection of soverign nations (just like the UK) who collectively make decisions based on their collective benifit (just like the UK). 

Indeed and its not the UK that has the upper hand but the EU. Sometimes I think the leavers still live in bygone age when the UK was a powerhouse. 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, jonclark said:

And there you have it as a leaver the fault always lies at the EU and never us Brits.

 

We chose to leave them freely and democratically  Do you actualy think the EU is going to let us leave and still have access to their economic market on terms which we decide and are benificial to us?  - I think you need a reality check my bexiter friend. The EU is a collection of soverign nations (just like the UK) who collectively make decisions based on their collective benifit (just like the UK). 

I don't know as nothing has been discussed yet, Barnier is waiting for us to bend over and think of England.

But while your there do you regret not taking Mays Brino deal?

[robblok]

Just now, Laughing Gravy said:

Thank you for partially answering what I put. Obviously you didn't read what i said.

 

What situation has changed. We have a British minister who isn't a remainer and is changing what the previous PM who is a remainer has done and will get it through parliament as law.

 

What about ignoring referendum results, no answer there.

 

Once in a lifetime referendum. Waited for 43 years to get a referendum and still won.

No comment there.  Quite selective eh.

 

Remainers and non Brits up in arms again.

I guess you really don't understand it before the Scots thought the UK would stay in EU that is no longer the case.

 

Do you really think that decisions can't change when new facts emerge ? Sorry but you make absolutely no sense. When conditions change one can have new votes and referendums. 

 

If the UK goes down the drain and suddenly wants to come back a new referendum can be held too. Nothing is forever its all about change.

 

Even I can change my opinion about staying in the EU, and then if enough people think like that we can demand a referendum. There is no such thing as no change.

 

In this case its clear the Scots like the EU always have and when they voted they did not think the UK would leave the EU. Now that has changed so they can leave if they want.

 

Not sure why you don't understand such things. Have you ever owned a company ? If so I would be even more surprised that you don't understand. Maybe you been in employment of one employer your whole life and rigid in your thinking. 

 

 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You’re pretty much alone with your creative definition of what constitutes good and bad faith. You could as well claim that elephants are small and green. You’re just ridiculing yourself, as so so often. Good luck finding an international court agreeing with you. 

 

It really depends on your interpretation of bad (or good) faith). He is not alone. The EU have been trying to dictate the divorce rules since the referendum, first with their priorities and sequencing of the WA negotiations and now with this weak charade that is supposed to end up with a trade agreement. Article 50 does not grant the EU the right for this bullying - the EU just assumed to do it - and they got away with it for so long, with the complicity of the UK PM and CS of the day (2016-2019), 

Edited September 11, 2020 by nauseus