Timer switch

[Susco]

2 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

It wouldn't.  But, these batteries will last a long time without charge.  Unfortunately, they are not replaceable though - at least mine isn't.  The point is, the timer works off the battery - not input power.  Sounds like you need to re-check the timer program - make sure set up as you want.  When set to "Auto" the L should only switch to the load during the set on time.

The live wires go to the breaker labelled flood lights.

 

If I switch off that breaker, the floodlights no longer work. I can operate the flood lights also by a wall switch, but that obviously doesn't work anymore when breaker is off.

 

4 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Sounds like you need to re-check the timer program - make sure set up as you want.  When set to "Auto" the L should only switch to the load during the set on time.

Well, it doesn't. Whatever I have tried, they either work 24/7 or they never work

[maxpower]

1 hour ago, Susco said:

There is a setting on and on/auto. In both case the red light is on

If the timer red light stays on when you change from on to auto/on the clock is calling for on which is most likely coming from on/ff programmed settings.

Its easy to screw up multi event timers, I suggest a reset and start over.

You need to set one on event and one off event each with 7 day setting :-

Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su
On 18:00 
Off 07:00

You have something like this I guess.
 

 

The small battery inside these timers supports the real time clock only, the timer will not operate its output relay during power loss.

 

A better solution would be a light/dark switch in the circuit.

 

 

 

 

[Susco]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions, the lights will work 24/7, end of story.

 

I'm out of here

[bankruatsteve]

33 minutes ago, Susco said:

There is a telephone cable with 2 wires ( brown and green ) that go to the alarm I ASSUME because the idiot installer didn't leave a diagram.

There should be 2 wires going to the flood lights (L & N), yah?   Where are those wires connected?  In the above photo, it appears that only L is getting connected and #3 is connected to L (#4) when timer is off?  Where is source N getting connected to the floods?  Also, the photo shows just "Auto".  Where is it you get either "On Auto" or "Off Auto"?

[maxpower]

18 minutes ago, Susco said:

Thank you everyone for your suggestions, the lights will work 24/7, end of story.

 

I'm out of here

Unless you are plagued by intruders or false alarms there shouldn't really be any concern over the lights coming on during the day.

 

Patience is a virtue.

[RichCor]

  

6 minutes ago, maxpower said:

You have something like this I guess.

The OP mentioned in a few posts that 

 

"The alarm system puts out 12 V to trigger the lights."

"Both wires at the bottom contacts of the previous switch go to the 12V relays"

"On the previous switch, 2 tiny wires went from 2 contacts at the bottom to a 12V relays."

"From the 12v relay wires go to a 220V contactor."

"The wires that feed the switch are controlled by a breaker which is labelled floodlights"

 

I'm still a bit confused WHAT the timer load contactor is wired to switch (12vdc, or 220vac). Also, less importantly, what breaker circuit is powering the timer, what breaker circuit is powering the lights through the 12v contactor.

 

Maybe at this point we should ask for pictures?

[maxpower]

3 minutes ago, RichCor said:

  

The OP mentioned in a few posts that 

 

"The alarm system puts out 12 V to trigger the lights."

"Both wires at the bottom contacts of the previous switch go to the 12V relays"

"On the previous switch, 2 tiny wires went from 2 contacts at the bottom to a 12V relays."

"From the 12v relay wires go to a 220V contactor."

"The wires that feed the switch are controlled by a breaker which is labelled floodlights"

 

I'm still a bit confused WHAT the timer load contactor is wired to switch (12vdc, or 220vac). Also, less importantly, what breaker circuit is powering the timer, what breaker circuit is powering the lights through the 12v contactor.

 

Maybe at this point we should ask for pictures?

I think you have helped more than enough already.

 

To keep stress levels down he should call in someone who understands the system and the programming of digital timers.

 

 

[Susco]

5 minutes ago, maxpower said:

To keep stress levels down he should call in someone who understands the system and the programming of digital timers.

I understand the programming of timers, I'm not an imbecile.

 

Nobody understands the system without a diagram

[Susco]

You want a picture, here is one. Now which sparky would be able to figure that out without a wiring diagram?

 

[Susco]

The brown and green telephone wire go somewhere outside that control box.

 

Green wire activates the timer when I activate the alarm, because floodlights go on.

 

Brown wire does not activate anything, and on the old timer brown and green wire were together

 

Tough when I activate the alarm I don't measure any voltage between green and brown wire

Edited September 18, 2020 by Susco

[maxpower]

4 minutes ago, Susco said:

You want a picture, here is one. Now which sparky would be able to figure that out without a wiring diagram?

 

Its a Thai rats nest that several on here are quite capable of sketching out without much effort.

Post #19 suggests you need help with the clock etc. See post #37

 

[Susco]

9 minutes ago, maxpower said:

Its a Thai rats nest that several on here are quite capable of sketching out without much effort.

Post #19 suggests you need help with the clock etc. See post #37

 

The red wire on connector 3, which goes to the 12V relay, and the brown and green telephone wire which go outside the control box, are the only ones that were connected to the old timer.

 

The green wire when connected to 5 activates the floodlights 24/7, when the new timer is set to auto.

 

The schedule on the timer is on at 18.00 and off at 06.00.

 

If I change the off time to a time past current time, doesn't make a difference

[Crossy]

I have a very similar timer trying to do a very similar thing.

 

One hole I dropped into was that my particular version doesn't like "on" periods that go over midnight. Trying to set an on at 6PM and off at 6AM didn't work as expected. I had to do 6PM to midnight then midnight to 6AM.

 

Since you don't actually need the load connected to test, hook up power to the 1 and 2 inputs and sit it on your bench to play with. The red light will turn on when the "on" period starts.

 

Auto/on and auto/off are just the initial state of the switch when you set to auto. Auto/on will leave it on until an off event and vice-versa.

[Susco]

9 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Since you don't actually need the load connected to test, hook up power to the A and B inputs and sit it on your bench to play with. The red light will turn on when the "on" period starts.

I have the new timer connected.

 

On set at 18.00 of at 06.00.

 

Wire that goes to relay connected to 3. Green wirte to 5

 

Set to auto,

 

Red light is off. When I activate alarm floodlights go on, but red light still not on.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Susco

[bankruatsteve]

6 minutes ago, Crossy said:

One hole I dropped into was that my particular version doesn't like "on" periods that go over midnight.

I bet that's it.  The timers I had previous to the ones I have now would turn on but never turn off if there was a program enveloping midnight.  Which I didn't even know was there until I discovered a program that I must have set by mistake.  Anyway... the previous timers ended up working one night then not the next and finally just didn't work at all.

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, Susco said:

On set at 18.00 of at 06.00.

 

This didn't work for me. Try on at now plus 10 minutes and off 5 mins after that.

 

4 minutes ago, Susco said:

Red light is off. When I activate alarm floodlights go on, but red light still not on.

 

That suggests that the timer is not controlling your floods. The relevant terminals on your switch are 3 and 4 (close when the red light comes on).

[Susco]

Just now, bankruatsteve said:

I bet that's it.  The timers I had previous to the ones I have now would turn on but never turn off if there was a program enveloping midnight.  Which I didn't even know was there until I discovered a program that I must have set by mistake.  Anyway... the previous timers ended up working one night then not the next and finally just didn't work at all.

I have reset the switch many times, so sure there is no program in the memory.

 

The new switch I can set on/auto/off. It is set to auto now and red light is off, yet the floodlights go on, while it is set on 18.00 - off 06.00.

 

Red light does not light up when the floodlights are on

[Crossy]

Just now, Susco said:

while it is set on 18.00 - off 06.00.

 

As noted above this did not work for me or steve!!!

 

[Susco]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

That suggests that the timer is not controlling your floods. The relevant terminals on your switch are 3 and 4 (close when the red light comes on).

If I disconnect the green telephone wire from the switch, the floodlight don't get activated when I activate alarm

[bankruatsteve]

4 minutes ago, Susco said:

Red light is off. When I activate alarm floodlights go on, but red light still not on.

That would indicate that the floods are not connected directly to the timer.  (Else, how could they go on if the timer is off?)

 

Try putting in two programs instead of one spanning 2400 as Crossy suggested.  And, work out where the wires going to the floods are actually connected.

[Crossy]

Connect the green wire to terminal 4.

 

Select an "on" period that does not pass midnight for testing purposes.

 

When you select auto/on the red light should come on and the floods come on when the alarm is active.

 

[Susco]

When I press manual switch repeatedly  it goes to

 

off . Red light off

 

auto : redlight off

 

on : red light on'

 

auto : red light on

[bankruatsteve]

5 minutes ago, Susco said:

When I press manual switch repeatedly  it goes to

 

off . Red light off

 

auto : redlight off

 

on : red light on'

 

auto : red light on

That is what should happen if the current time is after the start time and before the stop time.

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

That is what should happen if the current time is after the start time and before the stop time.

 

Sort of.

 

Mine goes:-

On -red on

Auto -  red stays on until an "off" time

Off- red off

Auto - red stays off until an "on" time

 

It doesn't seem to matter if we are in an on period or not.

 

With red on the floods should activate with the alarm if the switch is wired correctly.

[bankruatsteve]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

It doesn't seem to matter if we are in an on period or not.

I'm thinking that "Auto" does not create an event, it just sets to automatic turn on/off for the next start/stop event.  Hmm.  I wonder if there is no power coming from the alarm when the start time is triggered (and need power to activate the switch) then when power does come on, nothing is triggered?

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, bankruatsteve said:

I wonder if there is no power coming from the alarm when the start time is triggered (and need power to activate the switch) then when power does come on, nothing is triggered?

 

I'm assuming that 1 and 2 have mains at all times, the relay won't activate without mains (it doesn't run off the battery).

 

[Susco]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Mine goes:-

On -red on

Auto -  red stays on until an "off" time

Off- red off

Auto - red stays off until an "on" time

That is also how mine goes, and I have it sorted now using your suggestions. Thanks.

 

I first set On 5 minutes ahead of current and Off 3 minutes after that.

 

I then pressed on - auto and the red light stayed on until the set Off time, when it went off

 

I connected both the small telephone wires to 4.

 

I again set On time 5 minutes ahead, and Off 3 minutes later. I didn't press the manual button, so red light was still off

 

Floodlights didn't work. At the On time red light came on and floodlights worked. At the Off time, red light went off and floodlights stopped working.

 

Thanks I lost 3 Kg so far.

 

Will trial now how it goes with a scheduled time that goes past midnight

[bankruatsteve]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

I'm assuming that 1 and 2 have mains at all times, the relay won't activate without mains (it doesn't run off the battery).

Not that I need to understand the OP's setup, but does that mean that the timer switch is switching something other (from the alarm relay?) than the input L?

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, Susco said:

I have permanent power to 1&2

 

There is a setting on and on/auto. In both case the red light is on

 

There is a setting off and auto / off. In both cases red light is off

 

I have no idea how to test with a test light. It is connected to the alarm, and I activate the alarm each time.

 

The alarm panel is at the other side of the house to where the switch is.

 

Ready to engage a heavy hammer now

The problem is that you are trying to run before you know you can walk.

 

disconnect  the time switch from everything 
 

Follow the testing I listed 

 

line and neutral to 1 & 2 permanently on (In picture brown and white)
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

a test lamp with 1 connection to a completely different neutral,  (In picture white)

 

line From a socket to be used in the testing (Neutral from the same socket to the test lamp.) [blue in the picture ] to the switch 

from the switch to the test lamp is a red line conductor 

 

the only two you swap are the blue (Line from the socket) and red (switched line to the test lamp)

 

test setup 

[maxpower]

54 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Sort of.

 

Mine goes:-

On -red on

Auto -  red stays on until an "off" time

Off- red off

Auto - red stays off until an "on" time

 

It doesn't seem to matter if we are in an on period or not.

 

With red on the floods should activate with the alarm if the switch is wired correctly.

Your results match the common operation perfectly. I am lucky to be close to Chinese engineers who are familiar with most of the common products.

There are several variation of the software used in these timers with most following the same rules.

 

The program rotates around the 24 hour 7 day clock until it meets a match in the program memory. The event logic is then executed to change output relay status.

 

When you press the manual button you are changing the timers output status flag directly. When you press the manual button again it will go back into auto leaving the flag permanently as you set it.

 

The program will then continue in that condition until it finds a change in the programmed events.

 

Some timers will allow events to be programmed with 'on' event only leaving the 'off' event blank. You could then do the off event in another program slot. The program does no really care as its job is to change relay status only.