UK PM Johnson's Brexit 'brain' Cummings to leave Downing Street

[transam]

3 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Not your question, but of just a little bit more relevence to UK inhabitants

 

Gosh that IS a big number isn't it.  Sadly for any scare factor, so is the number of people in the EU - about 446,000,000.  So under €2 each.  I think they may be able to manage to find that without the UK.

 

PH

Really, so why has the sh_t hit the fan between member countries over it.....????

[Mavideol]

4 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Maybe you are not aware but one of the reasons  the UK left the EU is because they no longer wanted to be a in the single market and the four freedoms that are linked to in the single market

so, what's you point ?????????

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

so, what's you point ?????????

You stated that the UK   has no right to  the 4 freedoms that come with being a member of the single market

on that point i agree with you as one of the reasons  the UK left the EU is because they no longer wanted to be a in the single market and the four freedoms that are linked to in the single market

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, transam said:

Have you heard anything about your tax burden going up yet, now the UK has gone..?

 

I ask because all you talk about is UK problems, let's hear about your possible future problems in the EU... 

 

you must be confused, I didn't talk about the UK problems, don't care a bit/don' t give a rats <deleted>, about the UK problems, I talk about the UK ( in my opinion) making a bad decision and not accepting their own decision of leaving the EU without a deal, I talk about your and many of your comrades constant blaming/crying out the blues not understanding the EU has NO obligation of given the UK any type of deal, I talk about your and your comrades comments about the EU doing this and that and the EU should give us this and we have the right to that... that's what I talk about, not about the UK problems, that doesn't concern me, it should concern only you as for my possible future problems in the EU, absolutely not worried and/or concerned, it's all as it was and as it will be

[baboon]

4 hours ago, Mavideol said:

want to update you on some potential realities you may have oversight

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/may-not-succeed-says-uks-170818163.html

'We may not succeed', says UK's chief Brexit trade negotiator

 

 

Charles Hymas

Mon, November 16, 2020, 12:08 AM GMT+7

 

 

UK's chief Brexit negotiator, Lord David Frost leaves the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial strategy on Victoria Street, London, as efforts continue to strike a post-Brexit trade deal.. PA Photo. Picture date: Tuesday November 10, 2020. See P - Aaron Chown/PA Wire

 

 

 

 

 

The UK’s chief negotiator has warned “we may not succeed” in securing a Brexit trade deal as he made a surprise arrival in Brussels for renewed talks.

Lord Frost

Of course you won't. That was the plan all along. 

[Mavideol]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

 

The amount of tax on EU goods sold in the UK will increase.

 

Hence EU goods will be comparatively more expensive and UK consumers will start buying their goods from elsewhere. It's a big competitive world out there, lots of countries with cheaper products than the EU. They are not the only shop in the village as they are about to find out.

 

Say GoodBye to Treasure Island. And the Fish. And 10 Billion a year towards the wealth transfer scheme. Maybe they can let Turkey join to plug that gaping hole. ????

 

and where would that be. Poland? China? North Korea? come on mate, open your eyes, get real. Maybe you don't live in the UK but your acquaintances and/or relatives do, they would be the ones hit hard with all the new import duties

[Mavideol]

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

You stated that the UK   has no right to  the 4 freedoms that come with being a member of the single market

on that point i agree with you as one of the reasons  the UK left the EU is because they no longer wanted to be a in the single market and the four freedoms that are linked to in the single market

so what are you complaining about, do you want the 4 freedoms or not, if not that's fine for us, pack and leave, don't bother us with your constant complaining/asking/blaming the EU and wanting something that you had but no longer can have

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, Mavideol said:

so what are you complaining about, do you want the 4 freedoms or not, if not that's fine for us, pack and leave, don't bother us with your constant complaining/asking/blaming the EU and wanting something that you had but no longer can have

I think the UK Goverment has made it crystal clear it does not want to be a member of the single market and therefore doesn't want to accept the 4 freedom's that are associated with being in the single market hence why the UK left the EU 31st January 2020

Both the EU and the UK are interested in doing a deal but if a deal can't be agreed by both sides then there will be no deal between the UK and the EU

[baboon]

6 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

so what are you complaining about, do you want the 4 freedoms or not, if not that's fine for us, pack and leave, don't bother us with your constant complaining/asking/blaming the EU and wanting something that you had but no longer can have

Not going to happen. Not only does no deal seem to be the plan, but no deal on the most acrimonious of terms into the bargain. 

[Mavideol]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I think the UK Goverment has made it crystal clear it does not want to be a member of the single market and therefore doesn't want to accept the 4 freedom's that are associated with being in the single market hence why the UK left the EU 31st January 2020

Both the EU and the UK are interested in doing a deal but if a deal can't be agreed by both sides then there will be no deal between the UK and the EU

you are correct on the first part of your answer but bottom part is incorrect, the UK wants/begs for a deal custom tailored to their needs and they want the EU to bend over and accept it without any reply back, that's where all went wrong, the UK should have started negotiations in good faith and as any deal is negotiated, compromises are required from both sides, a good deal is only good if good for all parties involved, unfortunately the UK only wants it their way and they were all surprised the EU said No, it the UK says our way the EU also has the right to say OUR way and that's when things started to fall a part

[baboon]

1 minute ago, Mavideol said:

you are correct on the first part of your answer but bottom part is incorrect, the UK wants/begs for a deal custom tailored to their needs and they want the EU to bend over and accept it without any reply back, that's where all went wrong, the UK should have started negotiations in good faith and as any deal is negotiated, compromises are required from both sides, a good deal is only good if good for all parties involved, unfortunately the UK only wants it their way and they were all surprised the EU said No, it the UK says our way the EU also has the right to say OUR way and that's when things started to fall a part

'Well we won't move our red lines so you will just have to'.

What's unfair about that...?????

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, Mavideol said:

you are correct on the first part of your answer but bottom part is incorrect, the UK wants/begs for a deal custom tailored to their needs and they want the EU to bend over and accept it without any reply back, that's where all went wrong, the UK should have started negotiations in good faith and as any deal is negotiated, compromises are required from both sides, a good deal is only good if good for all parties involved, unfortunately the UK only wants it their way and they were all surprised the EU said No, it the UK says our way the EU also has the right to say OUR way and that's when things started to fall a part

Well if we looking at fishing, the EU currently has access to UK fishing waters until December 31st 2020, The EU wants to mantain the same access as they have now on going from January 1st 2021, According to the EU they have offered the UK to keep 10% of their fishing stock from January 1st 2021 Doesn't sound anything like negotiation in good faith to me or compromises from both sides

 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Really, so why has the sh_t hit the fan between member countries over it.....????

Has it?

From what I can see the EU has been consistent throughout the negotiations. The terms for access to the single market were made clear BEFORE the referendum. You guys just chose to pretend that you were more important than the entire EU. That somehow the EU needed the UK more than we needed them. Easiest trade deal in history. German car manufacturers. Dunkirk spirit. They dont like it up em. ????

All that bluff. All that bluster. All that false bravado. Where did it get you?

Oh yeah thats right.

Nowhere.

 

[Rookiescot]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Well if we looking at fishing, the EU currently has access to UK fishing waters until December 31st 2020, The EU wants to mantain the same access as they have now on going from January 1st 2021, According to the EU they have offered the UK to keep 10% of their fishing stock from January 1st 2021 Doesn't sound anything like negotiation in good faith to me or compromises from both sides

 

If you want access to the single market then you take what the EU is offering. 

This is what happens when LARGE trade blocks deal with with small ones.

Its a fact of life mate.

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

If you want access to the single market then you take what the EU is offering. 

This is what happens when LARGE trade blocks deal with with small ones.

Its a fact of life mate.

So if Scotland leave the UK , Scotland will be content with whatever breadcrumbs that the UK offer's as the UK is Scotland largest trading partner

Scotland's biggest trading partner continues to be the UK

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scotlands-biggest-trading-partner-continues-to-be-the-uk

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

So if Scotland leave the UK , Scotland will be content with whatever breadcrumbs that the UK offer's as the UK is Scotland largest trading partner

Scotland's biggest trading partner continues to be the UK

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/scotlands-biggest-trading-partner-continues-to-be-the-uk

Yes and no. Remember Scotland will most likely rejoin the EU. Thats my feeling anyway.

So what you would have is the same kind of negotiations we have just now. Except it would be whats left of the UK against the EU.

What you need to remember is that much of what is recorded as being trade with England is actually goods heading through English ports for the EU. So the figures get somewhat messed up.

[vinny41]

11 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Yes and no. Remember Scotland will most likely rejoin the EU. Thats my feeling anyway.

So what you would have is the same kind of negotiations we have just now. Except it would be whats left of the UK against the EU.

What you need to remember is that much of what is recorded as being trade with England is actually goods heading through English ports for the EU. So the figures get somewhat messed up.

Seperation from the UK would take maybe 5-10 years 

and then starting the eu accession process another 5-10 years some countries will be for Scotland joining the EU some countries will be against

So overall a twenty year timeframe

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Seperation from the UK would take maybe 5-10 years 

and then starting the eu accession process another 5-10 years some countries will be for Scotland joining the EU some countries will be against

So overall a twenty year timeframe

Nah I dont think so. Its not like Scotland is the first country to leave the UK. And most likely the EU would put Scotland in a transition period and want involved in the talks as well. 

[vinny41]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

Nah I dont think so. Its not like Scotland is the first country to leave the UK. And most likely the EU would put Scotland in a transition period and want involved in the talks as well. 

Its 3 seperate transactions

1) Scotland independence from the Uk - If the  EU requested to be involved the UK would tell the EU where to go

2) Scotland seperation terms between UK and Scotland - Once again if EU requested to be involved the UK would tell the EU where to go

3) Scotland  eu accession process discussions between Scotland and the EU UK not involved

[Rookiescot]

Just now, vinny41 said:

Its 3 seperate transactions

1) Scotland independence from the Uk - If the  EU requested to be involved the UK would tell the EU where to go

2) Scotland seperation terms between UK and Scotland - Once again if EU requested to be involved the UK would tell the EU where to go

3) Scotland  eu accession process discussions between Scotland and the EU UK not involved

Why would the UK tell the EU where to go? It would not be in its best interest to do so.

 

[3NUMBAS]

he can rehire him at the next GE ..cummings was going any way at xmas

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Why would the UK tell the EU where to go? It would not be in its best interest to do so.

 

Its called independence. likewise Scotland and the EU would veto the idea of the UK sitting in onScotland  eu accession process

maybe advising Scotland where the Eu is trying to stitch Scotland up

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

Its called independence. likewise Scotland and the EU would veto the idea of the UK sitting in onScotland  eu accession process

maybe advising Scotland where the Eu is trying to stitch Scotland up

I see where you are coming from but what would be gained by such actions? Most likely all parties would try and make things as seamless and easy as possible.

Its going to cost money otherwise and lets face it. Most countries care about money above all else.

[7by7]

On 11/14/2020 at 4:20 PM, vinny41 said:

<snip>

I see REMAINER Lord Adonis has started his campaign to rejoin the EU.........

 So?

 

You are really scraping the bottom of the desperation barrel if you think Adonis represents the views of the average Remainer. It's like thinking people such as Gerard Batten or Mark Francois represent the views of the average Brexiteer!

[7by7]

On 11/15/2020 at 11:11 AM, vinny41 said:

Both the US and Japan have access to the EU single market

as they are both not members of the single market they don't have to accept 

The "Four Freedoms" of the single market are:

• Free movement of goods
• Free movement of capital
• Freedom to establish and provide services
• Free movement of persons

 

As I said to you last time. "True; EU membership is not required to access the single market. But that access is not as free as EU members enjoy. For example, the USA has access but quotas are imposed on it's goods."

 

That is not the full, unfettered access promised by Johnson, Gove and the rest of Vote.Leave

 

Full access by a non EU state is possible; but there are conditions. Again to repeat what I told you on Saturday: "EFTA members have access to varying degrees. For example, Norway has full access. But it pays a contribution to the EU budget to gain that access and has to sign up most of the rules of the club, including its common regulations and standards, though Norway is exempt from EU rules on agriculture, fisheries, justice and home affairs. The downside for Norway is that it has no say over how the rules of the single market are created and has to abide by the rulings of the ECJ as they pertain to the single market.

 

You are right that in order to have the full, unfettered access promised by Vote.Leave to the single marker, non EU member states do have to agree to the four freedoms. "Norway, and the other EFTA members plus Switzerland have also had to sign up to the FoM directive to get access to the single market."

 

So to maintain the full access to the single market promised by Vote.Leave we would have to accept the four freedoms, including the FoM directive, and agree to be bound by EU law when it came to settling disputes. So why bother leaving the EU in the first place?

 

But we have left, and a UK outside the EU, even a UK in EFTA, was never going to get the continued, unfettered access to the single market promised by Vote.Leave. Cameron knew that and said so; but his words were dismissed by Johnson, Gove etc. as "Project Fear." Now that Cameron's warning is being proven true, Brexiteers are blaming the EU for not granting us something no other non member has!

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by 7by7
typos

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

As I said to you when you posted this misinformation last time. "True; EU membership is not required to access the single market. But that access is not as free as EU members enjoy. For example, the USA has access but quotas are imposed on it's goods."

 

That is not the full, unfettered access promised by Johnson, Gove and the rest of Vote.Leave

 

Full access by a non EU state is possible; but there are conditions. Again to repeat what I told you on Saturday: "EFTA members have access to varying degrees. For example, Norway has full access. But it pays a contribution to the EU budget to gain that access and has to sign up most of the rules of the club, including its common regulations and standards, though Norway is exempt from EU rules on agriculture, fisheries, justice and home affairs. The downside for Norway is that it has no say over how the rules of the single market are created and has to abide by the rulings of the ECJ as they pertain to the single market.

 

You are right that in order to have the full, unfettered access promised by Vote.Leave to the single marker, non EU member states do have to agree to the four freedoms. "Norway, and the other EFTA members plus Switzerland have also had to sign up to the FoM directive to get access to the single market."

 

Plus, whilst the treaty between the EU and EFTA has set up the EFTA court for the settlement of disputes; it's rulings are based upon EU law.

 

So to maintain the full access to the single market promised by Vote.Leave we would have to accept the four freedoms, including the FoM directive, and agree to be bound by EU law when it came to settling disputes. So why bother leaving in the first place?

 

But we have left, and a UK outside the EU, even a UK in EFTA, was never going to get the continued, unfettered access to the single market promised by Vote.Leave. Cameron knew that and said so; but his words were dismissed by Johnson, Gove etc. as "Project Fear." Now that Cameron's warning is being proven true, Brexiteers are blaming the EU for not granting us something no other non member has!

 

 

27 times Cameron stated voting leave would mean leaving the eu, leaving the single market and leaving the customs union

Gove  

Key figures from both the Remain and Leave campaigns said before the referendum that voting to leave meant leaving the single market. The customs union itself was rarely mentioned before the referendum, as far as we’ve seen.

There are some cases where Leave campaigners appeared to suggest the UK could stay in the single market after a vote to leave, although these examples aren’t all necessarily as straightforward as they look. In any case, they are rare exceptions, rather than the rule.

See Fullfact they are rare exceptions rather than the rule

Look forward to your links that state that fullfact is incorrect

https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/

 

 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, 3NUMBAS said:

he can rehire him at the next GE ..cummings was going any way at xmas

 So he says. But he didn't go when he wanted to: he didn't jump, he was pushed.

 

Johnson may rehire him at the next GE, but as it is extremely unlikely that Johnson will still be leader of the Conservative party and therefore Prime Minister then; so what?

[Bruntoid]

Cummings was pushed as Bojo would have found it very difficult to perform his forthcoming EU U-turns with Cummings on board! 

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, Bruntoid said:

Cummings was pushed as Bojo would have found it very difficult to perform his forthcoming EU U-turns with Cummings on board! 

According to a number of newspaper articles Boris is more hardline about the EU than Cummings

Boris Johnson remains the “hardest in the room” in his unwillingness to budge to secure a Brexit deal, government insiders said this weekend, amid warnings that just days remain to finalise an agreement.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/15/no-deal-fears-rise-as-boris-johnson-least-willing-to-budge-on-brexit

[Rookiescot]

12 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

According to a number of newspaper articles Boris is more hardline about the EU than Cummings

Boris Johnson remains the “hardest in the room” in his unwillingness to budge to secure a Brexit deal, government insiders said this weekend, amid warnings that just days remain to finalise an agreement.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/15/no-deal-fears-rise-as-boris-johnson-least-willing-to-budge-on-brexit

We shall see in the next week or so.