29 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

32 minutes ago, vogie said:

Where was this version of Brexit list, is it like a Chinese menu where you say 'I'll have a number 74 please. Can you show us all this list, I am sure we'd all be very interested and surprised to see it.

Or are you making it all up again?

Can you show me where the leave campaign actually defined under what conditions the UK would actually exit the EU?

No you cant.

Because it was never actually stated what leaving really meant.

Course you guys all knew what you were voting for though. 

 

Be fair, @Rookiescot. There was such a list; the lies and vacuous promises in the various Leave campaigns material and adverts. Such as

• the £350 million per week saving;
• the easiest trade deal in history;
• the continued, unrestrained access to the single market;
• the whole world rushing to make FTAs with us;
• stopping EU nationals rushing to the UK to use the NHS for free (which they didn't);
• regaining control over immigration (which we already had);
• etc., etc..

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Didn't you see videos from Cameron,Gove, Osborne all stating a vote for leave would mean leaving the EU, leaving the single market and leaving the custom union

 

Cameron did say leaving the EU meant leaving the single market but he was not part of the leave campaign. He was part of the remain campaign. All of which was dismissed as "project fear" by, wait for it, the leave campaign.

Of course after the referendum Farage did state that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. Something he went to great lengths to pretend was not the case prior to the vote.

2014 Scottish independence referendum

The question on the Ballot paper was 

Should Scotland be an independent country

And the voting options were 

Yes

No

And The Electoral Commission and a number of other organizations provided supporting paper as what voting yes means and what voting no means

http://aceproject.org/ero-en/regions/europe/GB/united-kingdom-the-2014-scottish-independence

I assume everyone that voted in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum knew that Voting yes would mean that

Scotland would become an independent country seperate from the UK and that voting no would mean

Scotland would remain a part of the United Kingdom yet the actually meaning didn't appear on the ballot paper

 

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Cameron did say leaving the EU meant leaving the single market but he was not part of the leave campaign. He was part of the remain campaign. All of which was dismissed as "project fear" by, wait for it, the leave campaign.

Of course after the referendum Farage did state that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market. Something he went to great lengths to pretend was not the case prior to the vote.

It does appear that the remainers only listened to the remain side and voted on that basis, most people I know that hadn't already made their minds up before the referendum was announced listen to both sides before casting their vote

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

2014 Scottish independence referendum

The question on the Ballot paper was 

Should Scotland be an independent country

And the voting options were 

Yes

No

And The Electoral Commission and a number of other organizations provided supporting paper as what voting yes means and what voting no means

http://aceproject.org/ero-en/regions/europe/GB/united-kingdom-the-2014-scottish-independence

I assume everyone that voted in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum knew that Voting yes would mean that

Scotland would become an independent country seperate from the UK and that voting no would mean

Scotland would remain a part of the United Kingdom yet the actually meaning didn't appear on the ballot paper

 

Yes and prior to that vote the Scottish government produced a hefty document called the white paper. It detailed the circumstances and conditions under which it was proposed we leave the union.

Where was the Brexit white paper doing the same?

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

It does appear that the remainers only listened to the remain side and voted on that basis, most people I know that hadn't already made their minds up before the referendum was announced listen to both sides before casting their vote

So I say again. You voted for what you wanted which was to leave the EU.

Under what circumstances we would leave was unknown.

So at the risk of repeating myself. You did not know what you were voting for  you only knew why you were voting for it.

Just now, vinny41 said:

It does appear that the remainers only listened to the remain side and voted on that basis, most people I know that hadn't already made their minds up before the referendum was announced listen to both sides before casting their vote

 

Indeed; and the Leave side repeatedly said that leaving would not mean jeopardising access to the single market!

 

Are you saying that leave voters listened to the Remain campaign only and ignored what was being said by Johnson, Gove and the rest of Vote.Leave?

 

Or do you think leave voters knew they were being lied to but voted leave anyway?

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So I say again. You voted for what you wanted which was to leave the EU.

Under what circumstances we would leave was unknown.

So at the risk of repeating myself. You did not know what you were voting for  you only knew why you were voting for it.

I voted for leaving the EU, leaving the single market and leaving the custom union and everything associated with the EU and I made my decision long before 2016

34 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

In what way is that a reasoned reply to my post. You have presented no counter argument. All we have here is some wandering hypothesis as to what the EU should or should not be and why the UK should have left. The UK is not alone in not adopting the Euro while a member. Or any other number of agreements which other EU members have signed up too.  

Well, first of all it was polpott who '...logic dictates..' and I was merely showing that it doesn't. I feel sure you would correct me on some learned topic you had studied and I spoke erroneously. The Euro was not the only changes that the European 'club' wanted, and as I indicated, going over to the SI units was another of them. Yes, I agree that some of the changes would have been costly but then that was a price to be paid for joining the 'club'. Quite true, each member may have had specifics but if memory serves, the UK was always complaining about something which then led to the idea leaving.

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I voted for leaving the EU, leaving the single market and leaving the custom union and everything associated with the EU and I made my decision long before 2016

OK so you ignored the leave campaign and Farage then?

5 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Indeed; and the Leave side repeatedly said that leaving would not mean jeopardising access to the single market!

 

Are you saying that leave voters listened to the Remain campaign only and ignored what was being said by Johnson, Gove and the rest of Vote.Leave?

 

Or do you think leave voters knew they were being lied to but voted leave anyway?

Gove was on the leave side

THE ANDREW MARR SHOW 8 TH MAY 2016 MICHAEL GOVE

AM: Well, we’ll see. Let me ask you, just before we leave the economics actually, a very simple question I have tried to get an answer to from various people on your side – is should we or should we not be inside the single market? Do you want us to stay inside the single market? Yes or no.

MG: No. We should be outside the single market. We should have access to the single market, but we should not be governed by the rules that the European Court of Justice imposes on us, which cost business and restrict freedom.

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

OK so you ignored the leave campaign and Farage then?

I listen to what they were saying and I listen to what the remain side was saying but I had made my decision long before 2016 similar to a number of Scots that knew which they they would vote if there ever was a referendum on Scottish independence

13 hours ago, simon43 said:

We need a PM with balls.  Maggie fitted the bill just fine.  All we have now is a blusterer and bumbler.

Boris has been an utter disaster but TBH Catweasle (the only alternative cira Dec 19) would have been far worse, and Captain Hindsight doesn't know whether he's farted or followed through.

Edited November 14, 20205 yr by evadgib

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

Gove was on the leave side

THE ANDREW MARR SHOW 8 TH MAY 2016 MICHAEL GOVE

AM: Well, we’ll see. Let me ask you, just before we leave the economics actually, a very simple question I have tried to get an answer to from various people on your side – is should we or should we not be inside the single market? Do you want us to stay inside the single market? Yes or no.

MG: No. We should be outside the single market. We should have access to the single market, but we should not be governed by the rules that the European Court of Justice imposes on us, which cost business and restrict freedom.

Right so his no comital statement was that we should be outside the single market but have access to the single market.

How does that make sense? You are either in the single market or not in the single market.

This was at a time when the EU had already stated that what Gove and other Brexiteers was proposing was impossible.

18 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Yes and prior to that vote the Scottish government produced a hefty document called the white paper. It detailed the circumstances and conditions under which it was proposed we leave the union.

Where was the Brexit white paper doing the same?

But was the information on the voting paper and we both know it wasn't

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I listen to what they were saying and I listen to what the remain side was saying but I had made my decision long before 2016 similar to a number of Scots that knew which they they would vote if there ever was a referendum on Scottish independence

Right so you knew what you wanted but what you didnt know was the circumstances under which we would be leaving.

So you did not know WHAT you were voting for only WHAT you wanted.

Its fair enough. Perhaps you did not care under what circumstances or perhaps you just hoped for the best. Its fine either way. 

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Right so his no comital statement was that we should be outside the single market but have access to the single market.

How does that make sense? You are either in the single market or not in the single market.

This was at a time when the EU had already stated that what Gove and other Brexiteers was proposing was impossible.

Still that persistent dream  keeps existing by them brexit bunch having the same as before whiteout contribution & obligations as normal E.U. members must do ....

 

Might need them a brain lobotomy i guess before that idea stops ...????

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

But was the information on the voting paper and we both know it wasn't

No. It was a hefty document. But it was freely available online and indeed if you requested it a hard copy would be sent to your address. 

Now why was no such document produced for Brexit?

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Right so his no comital statement was that we should be outside the single market but have access to the single market.

How does that make sense? You are either in the single market or not in the single market.

This was at a time when the EU had already stated that what Gove and other Brexiteers was proposing was impossible.

In the single market means membership access to the single market membership not required

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I voted for leaving the EU, leaving the single market and leaving the custom union and everything associated with the EU and I made my decision long before 2016

 

I think it is fair to say that most of those who voted were already pro or anti EU before the referendum was even thought of.

 

But the committed do not decide elections nor referendums; it is the don't knows.

Both campaigns were aimed at these, not the committed.

 

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

<snip>

 We should be outside the single market. We should have access to the single market,

 A reminder of what I said: " the Leave side repeatedly said that leaving would not mean jeopardising access to the single market!" Access to, not membership of.

 

Not only was Gove saying there that we should have access to the single market; both he, Johnson and all of Vote.Leave promised us that we would have that access.

 

Of course, as any sensible person knew at the time and the rest have all found out since, what Cummings, Johnson, Gove and the rest said we should have and what the EU are willing to let us have are not the same thing!

 

Gove's 'should' is illustrative of one of Cummings and his Vote.Leave's major campaign thrusts; that we could leave the EU but still retain all the benefits of membership. This fooled enough of the don't knows to tip the vote into the 52/42 win for leave.

 

A margin, by the way, which Farage said would be unfinished business when he thought Remain were going to win by such a small majority!

 

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

No. It was a hefty document. But it was freely available online and indeed if you requested it a hard copy would be sent to your address. 

Now why was no such document produced for Brexit?

Do you know if everyone read it before voting ,

The government is spending more than £9m on sending a leaflet to every UK household setting out the case for remaining in the European Union.

It says the 14-page document, to be sent to 27 million homes, responds to public demand for more details about the EU referendum by setting out the facts behind the government's position.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35980571

5 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

In the single market means membership access to the single market membership not required

 

So think about it. How is that even possible?

5 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

I think it is fair to say that most of those who voted were already pro or anti EU before the referendum was even thought of.

 

But the committed do not decide elections nor referendums; it is the don't knows.

Both campaigns were aimed at these, not the committed.

 

 A reminder of what I said: " the Leave side repeatedly said that leaving would not mean jeopardising access to the single market!" Access to, not membership of.

 

Not only was Gove saying there that we should have access to the single market; both he, Johnson and all of Vote.Leave promised us that we would have that access.

 

Of course, as any sensible person knew at the time and the rest have all found out since, what Cummings, Johnson, Gove and the rest said we should have and what the EU are willing to let us have are not the same thing!

 

Gove's 'should' is illustrative of one of Cummings and his Vote.Leave's major campaign thrusts; that we could leave the EU but still retain all the benefits of membership. This fooled enough of the don't knows to tip the vote into the 52/42 win for leave.

 

A margin, by the way, which Farage said would be unfinished business when he thought Remain were going to win by such a small majority!

 

17 May 2016

Speaking to the BBC, Mr Farage denied that his suggestion he would fight for a second referendum would further stoke tensions in the Leave campaign.

"I'm not putting it on the agenda, I don't want a second referendum - I want to win this one," he said.

Dominic "Scrooge" Cummings really didn't do himself any favours IMHO as a result of his little jaunt to Barnard Castle during the first COVID lockdown. If only he hadn't been too tight-fisted to afford the cost of a carer to mind his kid in London (as his wife had contracted the virus) - or even a Specsavers eye test in Barnard Castle prior to the return drive to London....

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

So think about it. How is that even possible?

Both the US and Japan have access to the EU single market

as they are both not members of the single market they don't have to accept 

The "Four Freedoms" of the single market are:

• Free movement of goods
• Free movement of capital
• Freedom to establish and provide services
• Free movement of persons

2 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Do you know if everyone read it before voting ,

The government is spending more than £9m on sending a leaflet to every UK household setting out the case for remaining in the European Union.

It says the 14-page document, to be sent to 27 million homes, responds to public demand for more details about the EU referendum by setting out the facts behind the government's position.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35980571

Oh believe me mate. Every line of that white paper was dissected and analyzed by the very pro union MSM.

The leaflet you link to was dismissed as "project fear" by many parts of the MSM and by the leave campaign itself.

It has however shown itself to be painfully accurate.

For me this is the crux of the matter. This is why after all this time the country remains so divided after all these years. IF Brexit had been defined and leave had won then everyone would probably have said "Well fair enough its what people want".

But the fact it never was and we have been scrambling around in limbo ever since has never allowed for the country to unite behind it.

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

In the single market means membership access to the single market membership not required

 True; EU membership is not required to access the single market. But that access is not as free as EU members enjoy. For example, the USA has access but quotas are imposed on it's goods

 

EFTA members have access to varying degrees. For example, Norway has full access. But it pays a contribution to the EU budget to gain that access and has to sign up most of the rules of the club, including its common regulations and standards, though Norway is exempt from EU rules on agriculture, fisheries, justice and home affairs. The downside for Norway is that it has no say over how the rules of the single market are created and has to abide by the rulings of the ECJ as they pertain to the single market.

 

Norway, and the other EFTA members plus Switzerland have also had to sign up to the FoM directive to get access to the single market.

 

I'm not sure that's what Gove meant in his Andrew Marr interview which you quoted! It is certainly not "taking back control!"

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Both the US and Japan have access to the EU single market

as they are both not members of the single market they don't have to accept 

The "Four Freedoms" of the single market are:

• Free movement of goods
• Free movement of capital
• Freedom to establish and provide services
• Free movement of persons

No. Trade deals are not free trade. Trade deals still have tariffs and quotas applied to them. They make trading some goods easier and tariff free but its not the same as free access. 

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Oh believe me mate. Every line of that white paper was dissected and analyzed by the very pro union MSM.

The leaflet you link to was dismissed as "project fear" by many parts of the MSM and by the leave campaign itself.

It has however shown itself to be painfully accurate.

For me this is the crux of the matter. This is why after all this time the country remains so divided after all these years. IF Brexit had been defined and leave had won then everyone would probably have said "Well fair enough its what people want".

But the fact it never was and we have been scrambling around in limbo ever since has never allowed for the country to unite behind it.

"we have been scrambling around in limbo ever since has never allowed for the country to unite behind it."

 

 

And i fear for U.K. that shall be staying so for a decade long time ......even when brexit is finally done in full ......polarization is the capital word for that !

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

17 May 2016

Speaking to the BBC, Mr Farage denied that his suggestion he would fight for a second referendum would further stoke tensions in the Leave campaign.

"I'm not putting it on the agenda, I don't want a second referendum - I want to win this one," he said.

 

Yes he did say that, of course he would.

 

But he also said on the 16th May that "he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.

The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way."