UK tells EU: back down by Sunday night or we'll walk

[Rookiescot]

8 hours ago, vogie said:

 

 

People voted for what they believed the two campaigns were telling them.

Johnson and vote leave said we would be leaving with a deal. A great deal. The easiest deal in history. Just like Norway and Switzerland. We would be staying in the single market.

People were not voting for no deal.

The fact is the referendum result has been hijacked by Brexit fundamentalists in the Conservative party. Polls show a minority in favour of now leaving in the EU.

There is not and never has been a mandate from the people to leave with no deal. 

[luckyluke]

15 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

You have just written nonsense I am afraid and a justification for remainers to feel they have been cheated. The vote from both sides had mistruths. How about the people who don't care about potential consequences of staying or leaving the EU but voted that they do not want to stay in or leave. 

 

The beer and water argument is useless and becoming childish for people to feel vilified.

 

For someone who talks about perception as an argument you have lost it with that post.

 

Always interesting to read your personal opinion about my posts.

They have however all the same inclination.

Which of course you are entitled to have, this being a forum.

 

[david555]

6 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  We have signed trade deals with Singapore, Vietnam and many other non European Countries  .

You know, non European/ White people/Counties .

Rather telling about who are the racists and who want a strong unified Europe 

Good to see you go do trade ways financially very wel ....so you can still by our then expensive tomatoos cheeses and Bmw's because tarifs .

...lol 

 

We dont have that obsession to wishing you go down....but only seeing it as a consequense of " independance " LOL

Different than the brexiteers E.U. 's distructian dream as a revenge for not giving in on your  Great Brexit ...????

 

 

[david555]

4 hours ago, oldhippy said:

haha..... or to be told that the only beer available is Heineken.......

Heineken

 

 

But ...but... that is mostly ..water + a "fragrance" of beer added...and a marvellous succsesfull marketing water product drink....????

 

The best proof of Dutch "water handling "& excellent marketing as the best ....???? 

????

 

 

 

 

[JonnyF]

11 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Why are you conflating illegal immigrants and legal immigrants?

Legal immigrants to the UK largely pay their taxes. They cannot qualify for benefits for three months so the vast majority come here with a job already lined up. Many are seasonal workers who arrive, pick the crops and then go back home again. Now that your utopian dream has ended the opportunity for Romanians to come to the UK and pick the crops who is going to do it?

The Brexit voting, poorly educated, unwashed masses sitting on their backsides claiming benefits? No chance you will get them doing it. 

I suggest all you plastic patriots here on TVF get your backsides back to old blighty and start working those fields.

I am not conflating illegal and legal immigrants. Quite the opposite. I am fine with legal immigration as long as it is managed properly. I am not OK with illegal immigrants endangering themselves and their children to come here hidden in boats and lorries, and then claim benefits while UK citizens who have paid tax all their lives can't get treated at hospitals or can't heat their homes with their meagre pensions.

 

You still haven't learned your lesson about insulting Brexit voters have you? No wonder your lot keep losing elections. 

 

Jonathan Pie is one Remainer I can respect. By the way I know it's a spoof before you make any quips about me being unaware because I am a Brexiteer. And I'd bet good money that educational qualifications exceed yours.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEaEBmpu-4o

 

 

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I am not conflating illegal and legal immigrants. Quite the opposite. I am fine with legal immigration as long as it is managed properly. I am not OK with illegal immigrants endangering themselves and their children to come here hidden in boats and lorries, and then claim benefits while UK citizens who have paid tax all their lives can't get treated at hospitals or can't heat their homes with their meagre pensions.

 

You still haven't learned your lesson about insulting Brexit voters have you? No wonder your lot keep losing elections. 

 

Jonathan Pie is one Remainer I can respect. By the way I know it's a spoof before you make any quips about me being unaware because I am a Brexiteer. And I'd bet good money that educational qualifications exceed yours.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEaEBmpu-4o

 

 

Nice to see I've had my ability to embed videos, edit posts, report posts etc. removed. 

 

The joys of being a Brexiteer on TVF lol.

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

 

People voted for what they believed the two campaigns were telling them.

Johnson and vote leave said we would be leaving with a deal. A great deal. The easiest deal in history. Just like Norway and Switzerland. We would be staying in the single market.

People were not voting for no deal.

The fact is the referendum result has been hijacked by Brexit fundamentalists in the Conservative party. Polls show a minority in favour of now leaving in the EU.

There is not and never has been a mandate from the people to leave with no deal. 

 

This "easiest deal in history" thing is so played out. why don't you use the full quote? He was absolutely right but you only use the first part of the quote. Completely disingenuous.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/liam-fox-uk-eu-trade-deal-after-brexit-easiest-human-history

 

[vogie]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

 

People voted for what they believed the two campaigns were telling them.

Johnson and vote leave said we would be leaving with a deal. A great deal. The easiest deal in history. Just like Norway and Switzerland. We would be staying in the single market.

People were not voting for no deal.

The fact is the referendum result has been hijacked by Brexit fundamentalists in the Conservative party. Polls show a minority in favour of now leaving in the EU.

There is not and never has been a mandate from the people to leave with no deal. 

I am not going to go down this never ending spiral of your fantasies with you again. You don't accept anything that anyone with differeing opinions says, it is all about you. Time and time again out comes the "the easiest deal in history, Brexit fundamentalists, polls in favour, you knew what you were voting for right.

Time for a reality check rookie.

[robblok]

13 hours ago, JonnyF said:

In answer to your question I studied at Greenwich University which is one of the top 5 Universities in the UK for my field.

 

We have no desire to follow the EU. It's simply a political control tool. For example they could over regulate on areas that don't affect them at all but which have a huge impact on the UK. We would be forced to follow them. For what? To allow them to fish in our waters and keep their massive trade surplus tariff free? Yeah that sounds awesome. 

 

It's all about protectionism. Controlling their precious single market protectionist racket. No thanks, it's time you guys accepted that game is over. Time to find another mug. Maybe Turkey can replace us? We're over it.

If you studied then you certainly did not study law or economics. Because your failing badly. 

 

The EU can only regulate area's that have something to do with the products you export. Nothing more nothing less. You can always have better norms then the EU (something that you don't seem to understand even though you studied at a university), you just can't have lower norms. The EU cannot effect norms on things you don't export. So you only let them have power over the things you export.

 

The moment you don't agree you either pay tariffs again or an other penalty. So your still able to just stop following the rules. It will have consequences for your exports.

 

The single market is not protectionism otherwise there would not be a fair playing field where people have to adhere to the same rules. Its a great economic principle. Not sure how that is a protection racket, probably something your read in a newspaper not learned at your uni. 

 

The fishing thing can only agree with you there single market, your delusional and not economically schooled if you truly have those idea's then you really should check your books (if they were about economics).

 

*edit* checked it you certainly did not do economics /  law there  there as its not one of their specialties. It badly shows. 

[robblok]

11 hours ago, partington said:

So Johnson has clearly been the one to back down, by agreeing to the ratchet agreement that allows the EU to impose tariffs on the UK if they evade following EU standards in a way that facilitates unfair competition with the EU.

 

Mon 14th Dec

"A post-Brexit trade and security deal could be sealed as early as this week after Boris Johnson made a key concession over the weekend, the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, has told the bloc’s ambassadors in Brussels.

Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. "https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/14/brexit-trade-deal-possible-within-days-after-johnson-concession-says-eu

 

The question is, how will he frame his backing down by Sunday night as actually the EU backing down, when he has in effect agreed to doing what the EU wanted all along, and he said was unacceptable?

 

Wed 9th Dec

"The main hurdle is seen by both sides as the EU’s demand for an “evolution” or “ratchet” clause to ensure that as one side upgrades its standards, the other is not able to enjoy a competitive advantage.

Before flying to Brussels from RAF Northolt, Johnson told the Commons that the EU had tabled terms no British prime minister could accept. “Our friends in the EU are currently insisting that if they pass a new law in future with which we in this country do not comply or don’t follow suit, then they want the automatic right to punish us and to retaliate,” he said."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/09/boris-johnson-and-eu-agree-to-extend-brexit-talks-for-another-72-hours

So the Brits did back down. Guess I and many others were right about who was in the strongest position.

 

I wonder how the Brexiteers  posters will sell this to themselves.

 

Anyway well done BJ you know who your boss is. ????

 

I will walk... maybe he meant I will walk the plank.

 

But seriously anyone deluded enough to thing the EU would budge on the one market principle was crazy. Fishing rights different story and one that the Brits are far more right about. 

[luckyluke]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Time for a reality check

 

Indeed.

 

An undeniable fact :

 

4+ years after negotiations started, they are still ongoing.

 

One can however have a negative/positive approach of it :

 

An indeed very long time;

But both parties haven't the desire to make a break up. 

 

So far.

 

 

[robblok]

7 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  Who should Europeans be united against ?

Who are the enemy that we need to fight/be united  against ?

Now the UK (of course not how about Russia and maybe China). A unified Europe is the best thing ever. It prevents wars. Though I think its unlikely for Western Europe to war among itself.

Edited December 15, 2020 by robblok

[robblok]

1 hour ago, david555 said:

Heineken

 

 

But ...but... that is mostly ..water + a "fragrance" of beer added...and a marvellous succsesfull marketing water product drink....????

 

The best proof of Dutch "water handling "& excellent marketing as the best ....???? 

????

 

 

 

 

It certainly is not a quality beer, but for some reason its available world wide. Must be the superior Dutch manipulation of the market ????

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

 

Indeed.

 

An undeniable fact :

 

4+ years after negotiations started, they are still ongoing.

 

One can however have a negative/positive approach of it :

 

An indeed very long time;

But both parties haven't the desire to make a break up. 

 

So far.

 

 

Other facts:

BJ lied constantly

BJ easiest deal ever (if this is an easy deal i don't want to see a hard one)

I will walk  (he did not and more then that he gave in)

 

Though I do think that what BJ did was the best he could do for the UK (i mean giving in and going for a deal)

[david555]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

It certainly is not a quality beer, but for some reason its available world wide. Must be the superior Dutch manipulation of the market ????

As i said .... Top Marketing Product ...  best example from "water in a bottle handling " ????????

Edited December 15, 2020 by david555

[Chomper Higgot]

36 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I am not conflating illegal and legal immigrants. Quite the opposite. I am fine with legal immigration as long as it is managed properly. I am not OK with illegal immigrants endangering themselves and their children to come here hidden in boats and lorries, and then claim benefits while UK citizens who have paid tax all their lives can't get treated at hospitals or can't heat their homes with their meagre pensions.

 

You still haven't learned your lesson about insulting Brexit voters have you? No wonder your lot keep losing elections. 

 

Jonathan Pie is one Remainer I can respect. By the way I know it's a spoof before you make any quips about me being unaware because I am a Brexiteer. And I'd bet good money that educational qualifications exceed yours.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEaEBmpu-4o

 

 

EU members have the right to move between member states to seek employment, they came to the UK legally via scheduled air services, ferries and the Channel tunnel - all legal and safe means of transport.

 

Now explain what the UK being a member of the EU has to do with ‘illegal immigrants’ making dangerous journeys to the UK?

 

They are not EU citizens and are not using any EU laws or treaties to make or justify their journey.

 

I look forward to your response.

[luckyluke]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

Though I do think that what BJ did was the best he could do for the UK (i mean giving in and going for a deal)

 

Indeed, and it shows he doesn't let him be influenced by one group only ( the non-deal at whatever what cost, ones ).

 

In negotiations one doesn't speak about winners and losers, as there are always, one or another taken, for a given.

 

Giving in, hold out, are terminologies usually used by the base.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

 

Indeed, and it shows he doesn't let him be influenced by one group only ( the non-deal at whatever what cost, ones ).

 

In negotiations one doesn't speak about winners and losers, as there are always, one or another taken, for a given.

 

Giving in, hold out, are terminologies usually used by the base.

I know that because both sides gave up things, this happens constantly in the Netherland with our many political parties. In negotiations you never get what you want. 

 

But as the Brexiteers here had such vocal opinions its nice to put them down a bit. I am sorry but this is a bit of shadenfruede. Because the die hard Brexiteers had to do a lot of water by the wine. I wonder how they are going to explain this.

 

However this is the best deal for the whole of the UK, not the deal the Brexiteers wanted. 

 

Its good that there are penalty clauses because the trustworthiness of the UK has suffered a lot. Who know if we can trust them again. Besides that most contracts have those kind of clauses otherwise contracts and agreements would no t be kept. 

 

As we have seen with the UK countries don't always care about upholding deals or their reputation. So its best to have a clause in it. 

[robblok]

15 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

EU members have the right to move between member states to seek employment, they came to the UK legally via scheduled air services, ferries and the Channel tunnel - all legal and safe means of transport.

 

Now explain what the UK being a member of the EU has to do with ‘illegal immigrants’ making dangerous journeys to the UK?

 

They are not EU citizens and are not using any EU laws or treaties to make or justify their journey.

 

I look forward to your response.

The only thing i can think off is that the open borders make it easier for illigal immigrants to move from country to country. 

 

Its not as if the EU likes it much we don't like it much in the Netherlands too. 

 

The UK is popular because of its language, if i were an refugee wanting to start over id go to a country where i at least spoke a little bit of the language. Also countries with large populations of legal immigrants already are more popular as the illigal ones can mix easier. 

 

But as far as I know the EU is always trying to make sure people don't  enter that is why we paid Turkey. 

[transam]

22 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

1. There you go with the ‘we’ bit, you had no part in any of WWII, other perhaps than watching black and white war movies. 

 

2. Membership of ‘military groups’ was a significant factor in the start and spread of both world wars. 

 

 

Is that all you've got, my use of the word "we" when I am referring to the UK populace..Never mind, you crack on...????

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

Is that all you've got, my use of the word "we" when I am referring to the UK populace..Never mind, you crack on...????

If you weren’t part of it don’t claim credit for it.

 

Simples.

[Bluespunk]

6 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Despite positive signs on the so-called level playing field provisions, Barnier claimed talks over a deal on fishing had gone backwards, raising the risk they could run deep into December.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/14/brexit-trade-deal-possible-within-days-after-johnson-concession-says-eu?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

Not everything going the EU way

Never said it was. Just that johnson had blinked- another u turn coming I feel. 

[transam]

20 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  We've gone , left on 20th January 2020 .

The UK is currently in the process of making trade deals with various Countries and trading blocs, which you are one of .

It is strange and sad that posters from the remain camp just don't understand that the UK has actually left the EU. Very strange...????

[luckyluke]

16 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If you weren’t part of it don’t claim credit for it.

 

Simples.

 

Usually people refer to history when he suits them, not when not.

In the case of the Britons,

very rarely they would refer to the 15th. February 1942.

[transam]

20 hours ago, robblok said:

Its strange that the Brexiteers don't seem to want to compete on fair grounds. I never saw the problem of upholding certain minimum standards for environment and labor and state support.  If the standards are too low they can always have higher standards. 

 

But if the Brits have so much of a problem with it they probably want lower standards.. worse standards for those working and the environment. Bit like a 3rd world country. 

I think you maybe reached the bottom of your barrel with that post, it is totally ridiculous....????

[JonnyF]

57 minutes ago, robblok said:

If you studied then you certainly did not study law or economics. Because your failing badly. 

 

The EU can only regulate area's that have something to do with the products you export. Nothing more nothing less. You can always have better norms then the EU (something that you don't seem to understand even though you studied at a university), you just can't have lower norms. The EU cannot effect norms on things you don't export. So you only let them have power over the things you export.

 

The moment you don't agree you either pay tariffs again or an other penalty. So your still able to just stop following the rules. It will have consequences for your exports.

 

The single market is not protectionism otherwise there would not be a fair playing field where people have to adhere to the same rules. Its a great economic principle. Not sure how that is a protection racket, probably something your read in a newspaper not learned at your uni. 

 

The fishing thing can only agree with you there single market, your delusional and not economically schooled if you truly have those idea's then you really should check your books (if they were about economics).

 

*edit* checked it you certainly did not do economics /  law there  there as its not one of their specialties. It badly shows. 

You seem upset that I have a degree from a good University. Doesn't that fit with your preconceived ideas about poorly educated Brexiteers? Or did you get your accounting certificates from some low grade foundation course?????

 

We already have better standards than the EU in many areas. The point is that this is up to us. We choose. We set the rules. Not follow the EU and face punishment if we don't. You'll never really get it because you're not British and you're happy for your little country to believe they have some relevance and power by hanging off the EU's coat tails.

 

Frankly, I think you don't understand protectionism. I can't be bothered to educate you on this. You don't even know the history of your own countries past in terms of colonizing other parts of the world so you're a lost cause. Given your lack of understanding it's amazing that you are so convinced that you are correct about everything and continue to post this drivel at such an astounding rate.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You seem upset that I have a degree from a good University. Doesn't that fit with your preconceived ideas about poorly educated Brexiteers? Or did you get your accounting certificates from some low grade foundation course?????

 

We already have better standards than the EU in many areas. The point is that this is up to us. We choose. We set the rules. Not follow the EU and face punishment if we don't. You'll never really get it because you're not British and you're happy for your little country to believe they have some relevance and power by hanging off the EU's coat tails.

 

Frankly, I think you don't understand protectionism. I can't be bothered to educate you on this. You don't even know the history of your own countries past in terms of colonizing other parts of the world so you're a lost cause. Given your lack of understanding it's amazing that you are so convinced that you are correct about everything and continue to post this drivel at such an astounding rate.

Not upset at all, you are still uneducated in the field we are talking about. Actually I went to one of the best private schools in the country. Just did not want to bring that up as it was clear your not an economic major and don't know much laws.

 

You do know that its normal for contracts to have clause for penalty so its quite normal. You either follow the rules and keep trading or you dont.

 

I know really well my countries histroy I made more then a few remarks about the crimes of the Dutch in Indonesia. I am well aware of my history.

 

Also protectionism is totally different from level playing field. So its clear you have no understanding of economics. Protectionism puts on huge barriers to protect home trade so it has an unfair advantage. Level playing field eliminates that unfair advantage because everyone competes with the same rules. 

[transam]

6 hours ago, Sing_Sling said:

After so many extensions due to the ineptitude of the British negotiators and government . . . just leave.  Leave.  This is almost as bad as the Trump saga . . . just leave. 

Do you know what this thread and Brexit is about...?  ????

[transam]

2 hours ago, david555 said:

Good to see you go do trade ways financially very wel ....so you can still by our then expensive tomatoos cheeses and Bmw's because tarifs .

...lol 

 

We dont have that obsession to wishing you go down....but only seeing it as a consequense of " independance " LOL

Different than the brexiteers E.U. 's distructian dream as a revenge for not giving in on your  Great Brexit ...????

 

 

You, still haven't replied to my question, did you forget..? Here it is again...

 

New PM Boris Johnson called a General Election to ask the UK populace if they wanted him to pursue Brexit.

What happened....?

[Chomper Higgot]

14 hours ago, JonnyF said:

In answer to your question I studied at Greenwich University which is one of the top 5 Universities in the UK for my field.

Now there’s a thing.

 

What year did you graduate?