Teaching English as a non native speaker?

[BangkokReady]

7 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

again, that is  self evident.  A teacher must be qualified and competent and a native speaker. 

I think this is the problem.  A lot of people with have a NES in mind who has no teaching experience, a useless degree, a poor grasp of English, possibly even a thick regional accent, but still gets treated like an authority.  They will then compare this to a NNES who has studied English and education.  It's important to clarify.

 

The problem is, most of the ESL teachers in Thailand, especially in government schools, will not be like the teacher you have in mind.  There are many places that will pay a competent and qualified NES so much more than a government school in Thailand can afford, that it becomes a no-brainer.

[Pilotman]

Let's be honest about it,  many of the foreigner teachers here are here for an easy life, sun, sea,  beach, sex, beer and a not too heavy work load, in a system that couldn't really care less about their competency.  Anybody with any real ambition to teach would not be here at all,  or would be fully qualified ( PGCE in UK Case) and teaching in a top rank International School, probably in Singapore. You may kick back now, but you know its true. When I said this to a friend of mine, teaching English, he said, yep, that's about it. 

[puchooay]

5 hours ago, Pilotman said:

That is a terrible idea.  Learning 'on the job', so making the children suffer for your inadequacies,  is boarding on criminal. Get qualified first (nobody mentioned a Thai qualification).  I am talking of a internationally recognised TEFL or TESOL gained from a certified provider, not some micky mouse certificate, gained online by just paying a fee. 

So how do teachers around the world learn to teach? Notice I said "learn" and not study. The only way to learn anything is to practice. 

 

You could have an MA in Education but until you step into a classroom you have no idea if you can teach.

 

Many Tefl providers are internationally recognized. Some of the Thai ones are. Still useless. 

 

Learn by doing. It's the only way.

[puchooay]

36 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Let's be honest about it,  many of the foreigner teachers here are here for an easy life, sun, sea,  beach, sex, beer and a not too heavy work load, in a system that couldn't really care less about their competency.  Anybody with any real ambition to teach would not be here at all,  or would be fully qualified ( PGCE in UK Case) and teaching in a top rank International School, probably in Singapore. You may kick back now, but you know its true. When I said this to a friend of mine, teaching English, he said, yep, that's about it. 

So I guess your friend fits into that group. I guess you do to.

 

I taught in Thailand for 21 years. I didn't fit into that group. Neither did many other teachers I met.

[Pilotman]

Just now, puchooay said:

So how do teachers around the world learn to teach? Notice I said "learn" and not study. The only way to learn anything is to practice. 

 

You could have an MA in Education but until you step into a classroom you have no idea if you can teach.

 

Many Tefl providers are internationally recognized. Some of the Thai ones are. Still useless. 

 

Learn by doing. It's the only way.

Its obvious isn't it, you get trained to teach? Part of that process is in class, but not until you have learnt the basics, that is why the Professional Teaching Certification process in most western countries is extra to a degree. An MA in Education in the UK does not entitle you to teach in a school, unless you have a PGCE.  Different rules apply for teaching a specialist subject in Universities. 

[Pilotman]

2 minutes ago, puchooay said:

So I guess your friend fits into that group. I guess you do to.

 

I taught in Thailand for 21 years. I didn't fit into that group. Neither did many other teachers I met.

No, I have never taught here and I would question your knowledge as to  the motivations of the vast majority of expat teachers here.  I have met far too many to be at all impressed by their publicly professed reasons for being here. They are far more candid after a few beers. 

[Nout]

On 1/5/2021 at 4:59 PM, Aurelien said:

Hi everybody,

 

Maybe this has already been answered if so, please link me to the relevant topic...

 

I'm from Belgium, and I wish to teach in Thailand. I have a Bachelor's degree in modern languages from University. Alternatively, I would also like to teach music (guitar) in Thailand.

I know that as a non native speaker, I will probably have a harder time finding a teaching job. Does getting a TEFL diploma helps?

Teaching online might be an option, but I can't legally live in Thailand if my job is teaching online, can I? 

Thank you very much and have a nice day

 

Aurelien

 

You need an IELTS score of 8 to get a legitimate TEFL qualification.

[herfiehandbag]

18 minutes ago, puchooay said:

So I guess your friend fits into that group. I guess you do to.

 

I taught in Thailand for 21 years. I didn't fit into that group. Neither did many other teachers I met.

 

12 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

No, I have never taught here and I would question your knowledge as to  the motivations of the vast majority of expat teachers here.  I have met far too many to be at all impressed by their publicly professed reasons for being here. They are far more candid after a few beers. 

Perhaps 21 years teaching, and one assumes the professional friendships and acquaintances formed over that time trumps (can we say that anymore?) the impression you have acquired in the bars.

 

I teach here because: I enjoy it, I find it rewarding and satisfying, the salary, combined with my pension, allow me to enjoy a pleasant lifestyle, certainly better than the one I could in the UK. I like the sun, live some 600 km from the beach, enjoy a beer, and am not averse to sex. Hardly the sybaritic existence you imagine most teachers to live. My point perhaps is that for every foreign teacher here there will be a different set of motivations. I haven't met one yet driven by booze and shagging - you couldn't afford much of either on the salary offered anyway!

[Pilotman]

Just now, herfiehandbag said:

 

Perhaps 21 years teaching, and one assumes the professional friendships and acquaintances formed over that time trumps (can we say that anymore?) the impression you have acquired in the bars.

 

I teach here because: I enjoy it, I find it rewarding and satisfying, the salary, combined with my pension, allow me to enjoy a pleasant lifestyle, certainly better than the one I could in the UK. I like the sun, live some 600km from the beach, enjoy a beer, and am not averse to sex. Hardly the sybaritic existence you consider most teachers to enjoy. My point perhaps is that for every foreign teacher here there will be a different set of motivations. I haven't met one yet driven by booz and shagging - you couldn't afford much of either on the salary offered anyway!

okay

[Ventenio]

I don't think you guys get it...

 

It's the teacher's BACKGROUND......."oh, wow.....you live in New York City? (of course not)"

"oh, wow, you know everything about America (of course not)"

 

It aint nutin bout no grammmmmmier and nuting else..its da look and wut dey think the teacher is

 

Pretty girls are 1000000000x hired over old guys.   Pretty girls from America is the ultimate money maker for private schools.  Blond hair, bonus.  Blue eyes, jackpot.

 

They will ask, "wow, do you know Ironman???"

 

yea, it's a clown show

[puchooay]

20 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

No, I have never taught here and I would question your knowledge as to  the motivations of the vast majority of expat teachers here.  I have met far too many to be at all impressed by their publicly professed reasons for being here. They are far more candid after a few beers. 

You've never taught here and are trying to preach to those that have. 555555 Nuff said.

[puchooay]

33 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

Its obvious isn't it, you get trained to teach? Part of that process is in class, but not until you have learnt the basics, that is why the Professional Teaching Certification process in most western countries is extra to a degree. An MA in Education in the UK does not entitle you to teach in a school, unless you have a PGCE.  Different rules apply for teaching a specialist subject in Universities. 

And a major part of a PGCE is? Teachers' Council of Thailand require a year of....?

 

Excellent. I'm glad we agree.

[Dagfinnur Traustason]

8 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

I believe that the requirements are: A native English speaker or having a suitable score in TOEIC, holding a degree and a teaching qualification (TEFL is accepted).

 

Being able to spell "teacher" may help as well as some ability with the syntax of the language. That comment may be unkind, caustic even, and I appreciate (from your name) that English is probably not your first language, but you are discussing what is required to teach it!

Oh dear Mr. Handbag, did I miss the a in a word. Wow! Must have made your day. Did you graduate from the spelling police?

Yes, I am well aware of that TEFL is accepted. (Unfortunately)

Can you please tell me what knowledge a person with a TEFL have regarding teaching experience, compared to a person without?

After that, I just want to clarify, for you, that in the post you replied to, I wrote no need to be a native speaker to be accepted for teaching in Thaland, but you have to be able to show the document they ask for. What was wrong with that? Are you just having a bad day?

 

[herfiehandbag]

31 minutes ago, Dagfinnur Traustason said:

Oh dear Mr. Handbag, did I miss the a in a word. Wow! Must have made your day. Did you graduate from the spelling police?

Yes, I am well aware of that TEFL is accepted. (Unfortunately)

Can you please tell me what knowledge a person with a TEFL have regarding teaching experience, compared to a person without?

After that, I just want to clarify, for you, that in the post you replied to, I wrote no need to be a native speaker to be accepted for teaching in Thaland, but you have to be able to show the document they ask for. What was wrong with that? Are you just having a bad day?

 

You obviously have a deep dislike of "TEFL" qualifications. I wonder why? Do you have one, or a TOEIC? I suspect not. They are the internationally recognised ( not just in Thailand) basic qualification for teaching English as a foreign language. They are neither intended as nor considered to be a substitute for a fully fledged teaching qualification.

 

A TEFL course does not replace experience, rather it provides ( or should provide) the basic skills to function as a language teacher. Experience comes with time spent doing the job.

 

I have actually had a very pleasant day, but I do rather consider, when reading a post pontificating on required qualifications for teaching English, and by inference belittling those of us who have gained those qualifications, that it is appropriate to comment on spelling mistakes and garbled syntax, as that rather highlights the weakness of your arguments! Spelling (or grammar) police doesn't come into it.

 

"Herfiehandbag" is a nickname from another life a very long time ago. There is no need to try and turn it into a formal title.

[Dagfinnur Traustason]

12 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

You obviously have a deep dislike of "TEFL" qualifications. I wonder why? Do you have one, or a TOEIC? I suspect not. They are the internationally recognised ( not just in Thailand) basic qualification for teaching English as a foreign language. They are neither intended as nor considered as a substitute for a fully fledged teaching qualification.

 

A TEFL course does not replace experience, rather it provides ( or should provide) the basic skills to function as a language teacher. Experience comes with time spent doing the job.

 

I have actually had a very pleasant day, but I do rather consider, when reading a post pontificating on required qualifications for teaching English, and by inference belittling those of us who have gained those qualifications, that it is appropriate to comment on spelling mistakes and garbled syntax, as that rather highlights the weakness of your arguments! Spelling (or grammar) police doesn't come into it.

 

"Herfiehandbag" is a nickname from another life a very long time ago. There is no need to try and turn it into a formal title.

Yes, I have a deep dislike of TEFL qualifications, because it´s a worthless document. They do not teach you anything, in the few hours you need to be present to get that piece of 5hIt paper. Yes I have been teaching, and yes, I do have the qualitfications needed.

[herfiehandbag]

3 minutes ago, Dagfinnur Traustason said:

Yes, I have a deep dislike of TEFL qualifications, because it´s a worthless document. They do not teach you anything, in the few hours you need to be present to get that piece of 5hIt paper. Yes I have been teaching, and yes, I do have the qualitfications needed.

TEFL courses vary. Some ( the online ones) are, to my mind perhaps of questionable value. The one I took, in Thailand, was quite thorough, and involved supervised and assessed teaching practices in several schools, kindergarten, primary, secondary and vocational college. It also included quite a stiff grammar test and non native speakers had to achieve a high score at TOEIC. It was no sinecure. People failed.

 

There are, inevitably, some chancers in the business here (and no doubt elsewhere). I doubt they last long for the most part. Last year I had to screen applications for a post at the school at which I teach. It was interesting, the standard of written English was poor, the spoken English in the accompanying videos also left a lot to be desired. One fellow had had seven jobs in eighteen months! His English was good ( he was an American graduate) but he was unwilling to disclose why he had as so many jobs! The most bizarre was a Turk who had trained as an English teacher in Bulgaria. His writing was - different! His spoken English unintelligible.

In the end they hired a lady from the Philippines. She was a Catholic (we're a Catholic school) and she was cheap - the school has little money. She was also the best if the bunch.

 

My point is perhaps, TEFL, like the individuals can vary; but a blanket dismissal as "a piece of *hit paper" is unfair and inaccurate.

 

 

[Scott]

As a person who was in charge of hiring, I preferred people who had a TEFL.  All things being equal, they could be turned lose in a classroom and do the job assigned to them.  

 

Of course, degrees are important, but if someone has little to no experience in a classroom with students, then a TEFL is extremely helpful.  

 

[Dagfinnur Traustason]

7 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

TEFL courses vary. Some ( the online ones) are, to my mind perhaps of questionable value. The one I took, in Thailand, was quite thorough, and involved supervised and assessed teaching practices in several schools, kindergarten, primary, secondary and vocational college. It also included quite a stiff grammar test and non native speakers had to achieve a high score at TOEIC. It was no sinecure. People failed.

 

There are, inevitably, some chancers in the business here (and no doubt elsewhere). I doubt they last long for the most part. Last year I had to screen applications for a post at the school at which I teach. It was interesting, the standard of written English was poor, the spoken English in the accompanying videos also left a lot to be desired. One fellow had had seven jobs in eighteen months! His English was good ( he was an American graduate) but he was unwilling to disclose why he had as so many jobs! The most bizarre was a Turk who had trained as an English teacher in Bulgaria. His writing was - different! His spoken English unintelligible.

In the end they hired a lady from the Philippines. She was a Catholic (we're a Catholic school) and she was cheap - the school has little money. She was also the best if the bunch.

 

My point is perhaps, TEFL, like the individuals can vary; but a blanket dismissal as "a piece of *hit paper" is unfair and inaccurate.

 

 

Sure, there are always different kinds of people. Some are good for what they do, and some don´t qualify for picking up garbage i the street. All the rest about TEFL will stand for you. As a little bit of interesting facts, you can take a look at last years knoeldge level of english in Asia. Hiring teachers from the Philippines is a total waste of space. They are listed as worse in english than Thailand, even if they tell the world it´s their native language.

[herfiehandbag]

22 hours ago, Dagfinnur Traustason said:

There is no need or requirement to be a native speaker to teach a language at Thai schools. Although it might be preferred from many schools.

The only thing required is that you can meet up to the documents needed to work as a techer in Thailand.

 

10 hours ago, Dagfinnur Traustason said:

Oh dear Mr. Handbag, did I miss the a in a word. Wow! Must have made your day. Did you graduate from the spelling police?

Yes, I am well aware of that TEFL is accepted. (Unfortunately)

Can you please tell me what knowledge a person with a TEFL have regarding teaching experience, compared to a person without?

After that, I just want to clarify, for you, that in the post you replied to, I wrote no need to be a native speaker to be accepted for teaching in Thaland, but you have to be able to show the document they ask for. What was wrong with that? Are you just having a bad day?

 

 

9 hours ago, Dagfinnur Traustason said:

Yes, I have a deep dislike of TEFL qualifications, because it´s a worthless document. They do not teach you anything, in the few hours you need to be present to get that piece of 5hIt paper. Yes I have been teaching, and yes, I do have the qualitfications needed.

 

1 hour ago, Dagfinnur Traustason said:

Sure, there are always different kinds of people. Some are good for what they do, and some don´t qualify for picking up garbage i the street. All the rest about TEFL will stand for you. As a little bit of interesting facts, you can take a look at last years knoeldge level of english in Asia. Hiring teachers from the Philippines is a total waste of space. They are listed as worse in english than Thailand, even if they tell the world it´s their native language.

Perhaps it is time that I withdrew from this conversation. Discussion seems to make no impression on your understanding of the requirements to teach English in a Thai school or your opinion of TEFL.

 

I will say, in parting, looking through what you have written, (and "taking the gloves off"); that whilst you may be qualified to teach elsewhere, in other subjects, your English (spelling and syntax) lead me to conclude, in my opinion, that you are not qualified to teach English here. Have you applied for jobs , and not been successful, I wonder? 

 

Your blanket dismissal of such qualifications lead me to suspect that you have not managed to gain a TEFL which is accepted, (not all are) or pass the TOEIC at a sufficient level.

 

 

 

[Dagfinnur Traustason]

59 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

 

 

 

Perhaps it is time that I withdrew from this conversation. Discussion seems to make no impression on your understanding of the requirements to teach English in a Thai school or your opinion of TEFL.

 

I will say, in parting, looking through what you have written, (and "taking the gloves off"); that whilst you may be qualified to teach elsewhere, in other subjects, your English (spelling and syntax) lead me to conclude, in my opinion, that you are not qualified to teach English here. Have you applied for jobs , and not been successful, I wonder? 

 

Your blanket dismissal of such qualifications lead me to suspect that you have not managed to gain a TEFL which is accepted, (not all are) or pass the TOEIC at a sufficient level.

 

 

 

My qualifications is verified by a CELTA course. However, like you already know, it´s not my native language. That makes me not care so much during a chat conversation with an obstinate individual. You can take your gloves off and on as you please, my dear Mr. Handbag. I have had numerous jobs, but as of today I do not find the salary attractive anymore. Mainly because of better income in other areas of interest. What you might think of me and my qualifications, is of no interest to me.

 

And YES! It´s definitely time for you to withdraw from this conversation. Have a good day, Mr. Handbag!

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

21 hours ago, puchooay said:

You could have an MA in Education but until you step into a classroom you have no idea if you can teach.

Any reputable MA in Edu should include an evaluated field component, that's a significant part of the final grade. Mine had me perform ten hours of class observations, and ten hours of my own practice teaching, all with full write ups, in regards to methods, best practices, and application of theory. They certainly wanted to make sure I was able to teach, in order to get that diploma.

[Muhendis]

This whole post seems to have degraded into staff room politics which is why I don't teach now. I've never in my life come across such a touchy bunch of individuals as are to be found in school staff rooms every where in the world.

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

22 hours ago, Pilotman said:

Anybody with any real ambition to teach would not be here at all,  or would be fully qualified ( PGCE in UK Case) and teaching in a top rank International School, probably in Singapore.

Problem is, there's a lot more of us qualified teachers, than there are these good positions we're supposedly entitled to. I now have several years' experience under my belt, both in the US and here in Thailand. I have great references. I have an MA in Edu. Yet I keep handing my CV to the intl schools and getting nowhere. I suspect a lot of it has to do with luck, the limited positions and how rarely teachers leave them, and of course, those getting in are doing so with inside connections.

 

I've heard "why don't you just go to an intl school" more times than I care to remember. It's not that easy. As with any desirable position, it's less about what you know about the job, and more about how well you can play the game, schmoozing and networking. But if I was any good at that, I wouldn't have felt the need to travel abroad.

[Pilotman]

6 minutes ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

Problem is, there's a lot more of us qualified teachers, than there are these good positions we're supposedly entitled to. I now have several years' experience under my belt, both in the US and here in Thailand. I have great references. I have an MA in Edu. Yet I keep handing my CV to the intl schools and getting nowhere. I suspect a lot of it has to do with luck, the limited positions and how rarely teachers leave them, and of course, those getting in are doing so with inside connections.

 

I've heard "why don't you just go to an intl school" more times than I care to remember. It's not that easy. As with any desirable position, it's less about what you know about the job, and more about how well you can play the game, schmoozing and networking. But if I was any good at that, I wouldn't have felt the need to travel abroad.

Why should teaching be any different to any other profession?   Statistically, according to some sources,  the hit rate for  being short listed to interview is less than 5% of all applications made and less than 1% for getting any particular job. So 5 in every 100 and 1 in every 100 after interview. 

[Ventenio]

1 minute ago, Pilotman said:

Why should teaching be any different to any other profession?   Statistically, according to some sources,  the hit rate for  being short listed to interview is less than 5% of all applications made and less than 1% for getting any particular job. So 5 in every 100 and 1 in every 100 after interview. 

Are you guys talking about 30,000 baht jobs?  OMG, outside of Chiang Mai and maybe BKK, you should have about a 50% of getting the job.  There might be a native teacher who doesn't want someone with a real Edu degree, because that person will likely only cause problems.  they want someone who is relaxed and no care bout if it write or wrong.  someone with Edu might be asking some questions noone wants to hear like "yo, all this stuff is garbage, who wrote this?"

 

My first job was in 2015.  After a few months I realized it was a clown show and only about money.  so i went and applied for other jobs.. i got THREE offers that exact same day.  30 to 40k.  5 out of 100 maybe if the person got a 150 on that non-native test EIC something.  anyhow.......it's super, super easy to get a job in Thailand.  if you are having problems, it's the system and the system isn't valuing you.  think about it.  

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

29 minutes ago, Ventenio said:

talking about 30,000 baht jobs? 

No. We said international schools and good positions.

 

I was at 30-40k for several years, then worked my way up to 60-70k at private schools. However, now with my qualifications and experience, I should be 100k+. I've been told this by admins.

 

Problem is, as I said, there's only so many of those jobs.

[Pilotman]

7 minutes ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

No. We said international schools and good positions.

 

I was at 30-40k for several years, then worked my way up to 60-70k at private schools. However, now with my qualifications and experience, I should be 100k+. I've been told this by admins.

 

Problem is, as I said, there's only so many of those jobs.

you are probably over qualified and would be an embarrassment to less qualified Principles and senior Thai teachers. 

[Dagfinnur Traustason]

2 hours ago, Muhendis said:

This whole post seems to have degraded into staff room politics which is why I don't teach now. I've never in my life come across such a touchy bunch of individuals as are to be found in school staff rooms every where in the world.

You don´t mingle much, do you? ????

No, actually we are a sad bunch of easily offended and proud people. You know, like if you tell my education is not good, then yours will suck big time too.

[Dagfinnur Traustason]

1 hour ago, Pilotman said:

you are probably over qualified and would be an embarrassment to less qualified Principles and senior Thai teachers. 

At least we understand why he have a hard time finding a job. ????

[2530Ubon]

On 1/5/2021 at 4:59 PM, Aurelien said:

Hi everybody,

 

Maybe this has already been answered if so, please link me to the relevant topic...

 

I'm from Belgium, and I wish to teach in Thailand. I have a Bachelor's degree in modern languages from University. Alternatively, I would also like to teach music (guitar) in Thailand.

I know that as a non native speaker, I will probably have a harder time finding a teaching job. Does getting a TEFL diploma helps?

Teaching online might be an option, but I can't legally live in Thailand if my job is teaching online, can I? 

Thank you very much and have a nice day

 

Aurelien

 

 

With a good accent, there are plenty of village/outer city, and now , due to COVID and a lack of teachers, most inner city schools will also now hire Europeans.

 

No harm in getting a TEFL, teaching here is completely different to what one would expect in the west.

 

Teaching online is not illegal, but it's not legal. As long as you wouldn't be teaching anyone in Thailand, (several of my OET friends tell me they supplement their teaching positions with teaching Chinese kids part time) then it's not going to cause you any problems.

You wouldn't be able to get a work visa/WP if you only wanted to teach online, but you could look at other options involving agents such as the infamous volunteer visa or education visa.