Are there structural differences in the Brain - Nature or nurture?

[sirineou]

With the state of politics in the world and the arguments we have  about them here in TVF, I was always perplexed by the inability of some , who are otherwise reasonable in other subjects, to accept  arguments supported by facts, and links to sources supporting these facts, They seem to simply ignore them , and move on to a different argument, often  later returning to the refuted argument   l. 

I always wondered why that was? What took people down that rabbit hole. So it seems that there have been several studies that suggest  Progressives have a larger Anterior  cingulate gyrus, that is an area of thanking in new information and the impact new information has in making choices.Conservatives tended on the whole to have a larger right Amygdala. Amygdala  being a deeper structure. that processes more emotional information specifically fear based information ,so it's really responsible for the fight or flight response  Of course peoplea re different for many reasons but if one used only that metrix, It Predicts with a  71,6% certainty who would be a Conservative and who would be a Progressive. (the lecturer uses the term liberal, but i dont like that term because it has a negative connotation )

 So a question is , is it Nature or nurture?  were we born that way, or is it due to brain plasticity ? That because we think that way , that part of the brain developed more and became larger. 

And how do we deal about it.  

The above are not my words but repeated from the lecture video below, that explains the concept .better than I ever could given the constraints of this forum. so watch the lecture and tell me what you think.  

 

[Kwasaki]

You need help. ????

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

You need help. ????

And how!

But That is the subject of another thread in the mental Health and medicine subforum  ????

PS: how long do you think it will be before this thread goes of the rails and gets shut down? or do you think it already has LOL

Edited January 23, 2021 by sirineou

[CharlieH]

Title adjusted to make it "Non Political" as in essence this is NOT a Political topic.

[foreverlomsak]

This is so far into the ether that I doubt if anybody could understand it

Edited January 23, 2021 by foreverlomsak
fixing spelling mistakes before I get criticized.

[sirineou]

7 minutes ago, foreverlomsak said:

This is so far into the ether that I doubt if anybody could understand it

I don't think so , I know my explanation might be a bit inarticulate, but if one watched the vid. 

It might even explain the majority of progressive attitudes of Thai expats. 

IMO it takes a certain amount of mental flexibility,   to pack up, leave the safety of one's tribe and country, and head for the adventure of the unknown and other cultures. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by sirineou

[StreetCowboy]

I don't believe the evidence quoted, but I cannot drum up enough enthusiasm to investigate it.

 

Some people have naturally different physiologies and different muscle distribution, but with exercise, you can strengthen specific muscles.  

 

You can learn and improve certain mental capacities (arithmetic, consideration for others, visual observation); I don't know if that translates into changes in brain dimensions.  I would imagine that when you opened the brain up to make the measurements, it might be a bit of a one-off invasive procedure, so I'm not going to try it on myself.

 

SC  

[StreetCowboy]

1 minute ago, sirineou said:

I don't think so ,

It might even explain the majority of progressive attitudes of Thai expats. 

IMO it takes a certain amount of mental flexibility,   to pack up, leave the safety of one's tribe and country, and head for the adventure of the unknown and other cultures. 

Or a complete lack of foresight

[1FinickyOne]

41 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I always wondered why that was? What took people down that rabbit hole.

I recently saw a documentary on Netflix... there are algorithms which watch your every move on the net and analyze it... the purpose is to keep you on the net as long as possible by feeding you things that they hope will fill your beak... so, if you read a conspiracy theory article, and spend time there, it will send you more and more similar articles... others will get different news feeds... and the only purpose is not indoctrination but keeping you on the net... however, that is how propaganda works... repeating things over and over creates belief... 

[1FinickyOne]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

IMO it takes a certain amount of mental flexibility,   to pack up, leave the safety of one's tribe and country, and head for the adventure of the unknown and other cultures. 

oh boy... you don't know my tribe!! 

 

First travelled around the world as a backpacker when I was 24... 

[foreverlomsak]

2 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

and the only purpose is not indoctrination but keeping you on the net... however, that is how propaganda works

by telling you what they think you want to hear, e.g. we have not suffered a setback only a negative movement

[CharlieH]

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I don't think so ,

It might even explain the majority of progressive attitudes of Thai expats. 

IMO it takes a certain amount of mental flexibility,   to pack up, leave the safety of one's tribe and country, and head for the adventure of the unknown and other cultures. 

I would say thats more about confidence, confidence in your own abilities to handle most situations and knowing what to do when you cant.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, 1FinickyOne said:

I recently saw a documentary on Netflix... there are algorithms which watch your every move on the net and analyze it... the purpose is to keep you on the net as long as possible by feeding you things that they hope will fill your beak... so, if you read a conspiracy theory article, and spend time there, it will send you more and more similar articles... others will get different news feeds... and the only purpose is not indoctrination but keeping you on the net... however, that is how propaganda works... repeating things over and over creates belief... 

YouTube is the same way. When I see a subject i think interesting, I am apprehensive to click on it, from fear that  my YouTube suggestions will be filled with similar subjects. 

I often fall asleep watching YouTube lectures, You know, The I don't have to look at it, I can just listen to it, and before you know it you are asleep.

But Youtube continues to play the next video until a loud one wakes me up. Next day my suggestion tray is filled with all sort of straing suggestions LOL

Same thing with Netflix, I watch something for five minutes and I hate it so much, it turn it off. Next day "because you watched X , here is more of the same" ???? 

[sirineou]

11 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

oh boy... you don't know my tribe!! 

 

First travelled around the world as a backpacker when I was 24... 

is it the Hekawi from F Troop? 

The story is that the were traveling over mountains and trough reivers hopelessly lost.  when finally came upon another tribe

Upon approaching them the asked  "Where the heck are we"

The other tribe thought they said "we are the Hekawi, " and that's how they got their name,????

Edited January 23, 2021 by sirineou

[foreverlomsak]

3 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Same thing with Netflix, I watch something for five minutes and I hate it so much, it turn it off. Next day "because you watched X , here is more of the same"

Fitting everybody into the same square hole even thou they though are round.

People are there to be manipulated, into what we think they want to see.

[OneMoreFarang]

Does it really matter why most people don't change much?

It's a fact which everybody can easily observe. It's one of those facts in life and IMHO it's best to just accept it.

Or to quote Mr. T: It is what it is. ???? 

[sirineou]

12 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Does it really matter why most people don't change much?

It's a fact which everybody can easily observe. It's one of those facts in life and IMHO it's best to just accept it.

Or to quote Mr. T: It is what it is. ???? 

It's not whether it matters but rather that it explains some things and starts on in the right direction  towards rectifying it as best we can. 

The first step towards rectifying a problem is identifying its root causes

. I  certainly like to know why I am the way I am.

I know what you are thinking, "Yea you and the rest of the forum" LOL

[OneMoreFarang]

5 hours ago, sirineou said:

It's not whether it matters but rather that it explains some things and starts on in the right direction  towards rectifying it as best we can. 

The first step towards rectifying a problem is identifying its root causes

. I  certainly like to know why I am the way I am.

I know what you are thinking, "Yea you and the rest of the forum" LOL

It seems there are lots of different expert opinions. And then we, the non experts, can chose our favorite expert and expert opinion or maybe we believe a little from that expert and a little from another expert and we build our own theory how things work. Really?

If people who spend decades researching nature or nurture can't agree how this works how are we supposed to even understand why maybe one or the other expert is right?

Sure, we can all argue, we can all study, even for years, but then we will still argue. And that's were I think there is just no point in doing that.

[sirineou]

9 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems there are lots of different expert opinions. And then we, the non experts, can chose our favorite expert and expert opinion or maybe we believe a little from that expert and a little from another expert and we build our own theory how things work. Really?

If people who spend decades researching nature or nurture can't agree how this works how are we supposed to even understand why maybe one or the other expert is right?

Sure, we can all argue, we can all study, even for years, but then we will still argue. And that's were I think there is just no point in doing that.

I agree with everything you said , except the part that there is no point in arguing the arguable. I understand that there is conformational bias in all of us but how else would we dispel that condition if we don't have it challenged, and when such challenge is successful accept it and modify our bia?. or are we to give up and wallow in it? 

There are some things we can't change  and there are things we can, We can't change   our nature,  well at least not naturally, we can modify it through invasive methods, but for the most part we can't change our nature, but with only little effort we can easily change our nurture.  For instance, What effect does corporal punishment has on the development of the human brain and by extension the human mind? Interesting article below from a respected  source. 

" Spanking erodes developmental growth in children and decreases a child's IQ, a recent Canadian study shows.

This analysis, conducted at the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario in Ottawa, offers new evidence that corporal punishment causes cognitive impairment and long-term developmental difficulties."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brain#:~:text=Spanking erodes developmental growth in,and long-term developmental difficulties.

Like a muscle that grows when stimulated, doe a part of the brain that is overly stimulated, such as the Amygdala that is the core fear system in the human body , also grow out of proportion with the associated consequences? 

"The below is hard science, not opinion, and not subject to confirmation bias (unless one can produce peer reviewed   opposing research) and speaks directly to Nature and the subject at hand in the OP , I have underlined to portion the corresponds to my OP thesis. 

"Results
GMV was reduced by 19.1% in the right medial frontal gyrus (medial prefrontal cortex; MPFC, BA10) (P = 0.037, corrected cluster level), by 14.5% in the left medial frontal gyrus (dorsolateral prefrontal cortex; DLPFC, BA 9) (P = 0.015, uncorrected cluster level) and by 16.9% in the right anterior cingulate gyrus  "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/ 

 

 

[Lacessit]

It's both. IMO all of us are born with gifts, there are very few people that achieve being failures at everything. How people develop any gifts they have is then determined by the values their parents impart, and the education they get.

As far as critical analysis of the barrage of information we get now on a daily basis goes, "Straight and Crooked Thinking" by R H Thouless should be a mandatory curriculum item in every secondary school.

[OneMoreFarang]

10 hours ago, sirineou said:

I agree with everything you said , except the part that there is no point in arguing the arguable. I understand that there is conformational bias in all of us but how else would we dispel that condition if we don't have it challenged, and when such challenge is successful accept it and modify our bia?. or are we to give up and wallow in it? 

There are some things we can't change  and there are things we can, We can't change   our nature,  well at least not naturally, we can modify it through invasive methods, but for the most part we can't change our nature, but with only little effort we can easily change our nurture.  For instance, What effect does corporal punishment has on the development of the human brain and by extension the human mind? Interesting article below from a respected  source. 

" Spanking erodes developmental growth in children and decreases a child's IQ, a recent Canadian study shows.

This analysis, conducted at the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario in Ottawa, offers new evidence that corporal punishment causes cognitive impairment and long-term developmental difficulties."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-me-in-we/201202/how-spanking-harms-the-brain#:~:text=Spanking erodes developmental growth in,and long-term developmental difficulties.

Like a muscle that grows when stimulated, doe a part of the brain that is overly stimulated, such as the Amygdala that is the core fear system in the human body , also grow out of proportion with the associated consequences? 

"The below is hard science, not opinion, and not subject to confirmation bias (unless one can produce peer reviewed   opposing research) and speaks directly to Nature and the subject at hand in the OP , I have underlined to portion the corresponds to my OP thesis. 

"Results
GMV was reduced by 19.1% in the right medial frontal gyrus (medial prefrontal cortex; MPFC, BA10) (P = 0.037, corrected cluster level), by 14.5% in the left medial frontal gyrus (dorsolateral prefrontal cortex; DLPFC, BA 9) (P = 0.015, uncorrected cluster level) and by 16.9% in the right anterior cingulate gyrus  "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2896871/ 

Thanks for your detailed reply.

I think arguing the arguable is good. But IMHO it only makes sense for people who are knowledgeable in what they talk about.

I.e. long time ago I read a couple of articles about IQ and nature or nurture. I also have an opinion about it. But I wouldn't dare to argue it with anybody who works in that field and/or an expert because I know I don't even know 1% of what they know.

You write about the Amygdala. The what? How many members here ever read that word, know how to pronounce it or could explain what it is or where it is. After some research I know it's green but that is as far as my "knowledge" goes. And somehow I suspect there are very few TV members who have real knowledge about it.

 

Here is the proof it's green ????

 

 

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks for your detailed reply.

I think arguing the arguable is good. But IMHO it only makes sense for people who are knowledgeable in what they talk about.

I.e. long time ago I read a couple of articles about IQ and nature or nurture. I also have an opinion about it. But I wouldn't dare to argue it with anybody who works in that field and/or an expert because I know I don't even know 1% of what they know.

You write about the Amygdala. The what? How many members here ever read that word, know how to pronounce it or could explain what it is or where it is. After some research I know it's green but that is as far as my "knowledge" goes. And somehow I suspect there are very few TV members who have real knowledge about it.

 

Here is the proof it's green ????

 

 

It's not easy being green 

[CharlieH]

Black white and huge gray.

 

Black = dna its how we are made.

White= its how we are reared and taught/influenced as we grow.

Gray= How both of those things interact.

 

Thats what makes us all different and unique in our own way. 

 

Thats my take on it anyway.....????

[sipi]

Is it possible to swing back and forth?

Nurture from birth to teens, nature from teens to midlife, then nurture till death?

Or something like that anyway?

[Lacessit]

51 minutes ago, sipi said:

Is it possible to swing back and forth?

Nurture from birth to teens, nature from teens to midlife, then nurture till death?

Or something like that anyway?

If you take into account the huge hormonal swings everyone has from child hood to their teens, yes. And women then have them every month.