EU blames AstraZeneca as vaccine battle with UK deepens

[Hi from France]

56 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

You seem to have a problem with all sources   execpt your own

we need to debate on facts not propaganda, so yes: sources are important. The are not "my own" a source is by nature "not me".

 

For me the best sources are world-class newspapers like the FT ou the guardian: secondary source.

Then you have official source like the EU or the UK government. These are primary sources, but often skewed by said government. The bad example is the current UK national-populist government: as you know Boris Johnson is "economical with the truth" and was sacked for making up fact event before becoming a politician. Frost can be nice and smiling one day and unilaterally break his word the next like he just did with the WA...

 

 

vinny: do you really think it's wise sourcing your claims from facts4eu, a coalition of extremist Brexit groups like you did on Monday ? Are you even sure they are not directly supported by Russian interests?

 

 

 

 

Right now the world is in "vaccine panic" mode: there are fake news everywhere : we need to keep calm and discuss/check our informations don't you think?

 

That remind me of a guy who sent me a pm complaining he had been sacked from the forum for spreading false news about AZ.

 

Well

 

I told him that he deserved it ????

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Hi from France

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, JustAnotherHun said:

"To shift the blame is the name of the EU-game".

It's the EU buerocrats and the - in each job she ever did totally incompetent - van der Leyen, who are responisble for this complete failure.

They negotiated endlessly with AZ professionals like the dumb amateurs they are - while the UK already fixed contracts and started the roll out.

 

The UK does, what it has to do: Take care their own citizens first. Congratulation! I got my shots already due to my job, but i wish, I were british!

 

A word to export controls:

Today they "found" 30 million AZ doses in Italy waiting to be shipped to the UK.

IF (big if!)  it is true that AZ's EU plants are delivering to the UK but not vice versa from there to the EU and though it was the EU who messed the whole thing up, export controls or stops have to be invented.

First handle the crisis, then shoot the responsibles.

 

 

 

If its true AZ is giving priority to the UK rather than a fair share across all its customers you can expect massive ramifications from that.

The EU is not an institution that will be pushed/messed around and has far more clout than the UK does.

[baansgr]

10 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

If its true AZ is giving priority to the UK rather than a fair share across all its customers you can expect massive ramifications from that.

The EU is not an institution that will be pushed/messed around and has far more clout than the UK does.

UK donated 2 Billion pounds for research into AZ...did Europe???

[vinny41]

On 3/21/2021 at 9:07 PM, Hi from France said:

Yes 

 

The AZ was untested with 65+ but the Brits injected it nonetheless starting with their 65+

 

So the blood clot problems were not discovered before the European and the UK started injecting their younger citizens

 

In the EU, the oldest got the Pfizer, (I'm just back from the 1st jab of my aunt btw, and it was a Pfizer) 

 

40 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

we need to debate on facts not propaganda, so yes: sources are important. The are not "my own" a source is by nature "not me".

 

For me the best sources are world-class newspapers like the FT ou the guardian: secondary source.

Then you have official source like the EU or the UK government. These are primary sources, but often skewed by said government. The bad example is the current UK national-populist government: as you know Boris Johnson is "economical with the truth" and was sacked for making up fact event before becoming a politician. Frost can be nice and smiling one day and unilaterally break his word the next like he just did with the WA...

 

 

vinny: do you really think it's wise sourcing your claims from facts4eu, a coalition of extremist Brexit groups like you did on Monday ? Are you even sure they are not directly supported by Russian interests?

 

 

 

 

Right now the world is in "vaccine panic" mode: there are fake news everywhere : we need to keep calm and discuss/check our informations don't you think?

 

That remind me of a guy who sent me a pm complaining he had been sacked from the forum for spreading false news about AZ.

 

Well

 

I told him that he deserved it ????

 

Your on a different planet you posted on this forum a complete falsehood stating that over 65 were not tested before the UK started giving them jabs

There is no evidence that facts4eu is a coalition of extremist Brexit groups , its you claiming they are without providing a shread of evidence to backup or support your claims 

A british MP has linked them on his blog page which would indicate to me that your claims are complete fabrication until you provide evidence about facts4eu

https://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2019/06/01/facts4eu-run-my-views-on-a-brexit-bonus-budget/

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by vinny41
duplication

[Bkk Brian]

46 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

we need to debate on facts not propaganda, so yes: sources are important. The are not "my own" a source is by nature "not me".

 

For me the best sources are world-class newspapers like the FT ou the guardian: secondary source.

Then you have official source like the EU or the UK government. These are primary sources, but often skewed by said government. The bad example is the current UK national-populist government: as you know Boris Johnson is "economical with the truth" and was sacked for making up fact event before becoming a politician. Frost can be nice and smiling one day and unilaterally break his word the next like he just did with the WA...

 

In other words a debate with you has to follow your rules otherwise you deflect by claiming the links do not qualify.

 

This despite you yourself providing alternative links including to the Telegraph to prove your facts, in other words breaking your own rules. Here's a few of your rule breaking links in the posts below:

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1210791-eu-rebuffs-uk-calls-to-ship-astrazeneca-covid-vaccines-from-europe/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-16337694

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1210791-eu-rebuffs-uk-calls-to-ship-astrazeneca-covid-vaccines-from-europe/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-16337684

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1210156-facing-crisis-of-century-eu-threatens-ban-on-covid-vaccine-exports-to-uk/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-16333354

 

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1210156-facing-crisis-of-century-eu-threatens-ban-on-covid-vaccine-exports-to-uk/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-16330102

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1210156-facing-crisis-of-century-eu-threatens-ban-on-covid-vaccine-exports-to-uk/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-16328651

 

To have an open debate facts can be drawn from a variety of sources. Even if you don't agree it can still be a fact from a credible source. Permission does not need to be gained from you to earn the right to link to other sources aside from your list. Its not your right alone to make that choice.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Bkk Brian

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Telegraph source, so to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Last September the Telegraph announced triumphantly that Barnier was sacked, remember?

In general I think the Telegraph is a very reliable source, albeit biased.

[cocoonclub]

6 hours ago, candide said:

Naah! It's just the US being childishly jealous of Brexited UK's success!

I’m definitely waiting for the Brexiteers to blame the NATO for causing vaccine hesitancy.

[cocoonclub]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

A british MP has linked them on his blog page

And US MPs link Qanon on their blog pages. 

[cocoonclub]

2 hours ago, baansgr said:

UK donated 2 Billion pounds for research into AZ...did Europe???

I’m sure you have done your research so you can answer that question and provide some credible sources. 

[vinny41]

5 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

And US MPs link Qanon on their blog pages. 

I wasn't aware that the US has members of parliament

I checked the US doesn't have MP's or members of parliament

which would indicate that your statement is fake and false

Edited March 24, 2021 by vinny41
typo

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

The AstraZeneca vaccine is the only one that is being offered at cost price. Every other pharma company is pricing for a profit. So it’s no great surprise that it is subject to politically and commercially motivated criticism ... less sales of AstraZeneca means more profit for national champions in the US and Europe. 
 

I bet that when all the data for all the vaccines have been analysed to death we will find that Astra’s product was as safe and effective as the rest. 

Here here!

[vinny41]

Coronavirus latest news: Boris Johnson hints the UK may retaliate if EU limits vaccine exports

Boris Johnson has insisted the UK is "not taking anything off the table in terms of the British response" to the vaccine export restrictions unveiled by the European Commission on Wednesday. 

Speaking to MPs during the Liaison Committee, the Prime Minister insisted that the UK will do "everything necessary" to ensure British people are vaccinated, which is the government's "priority

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-astrazeneca-vaccine-lockdown-covid-deaths-cases/

 

Its looks like virtual handshakes are off the table

[cocoonclub]

7 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

I wasn't aware that the US has members of parliament

I checked the US doesn't have MP's or members of parliament

which would indicate that your statement is fake and false

They’re just called differently but carry out pretty much the same function. 
 

But that wasn’t even the point and you don’t seem to get it. 

[Hi from France]

33 minutes ago, stevenl said:

In general I think the Telegraph is a very reliable source, albeit biased.

I do read the Telegraph a lot, as they have an extensive coverage of Brexit. 

 

The Telegraph have some "fantasy op-ed writers, but they also have credible journalists like James Crisp

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/james-crisp/

 

.. and also articles targeting their brexiteer readership, like ' the ‘Festival of Brexit’ starts to take shape", or "Cornish fishermen see boom in domestic demand post-Brexit".

 

note: "brexiteer-oriented" does no necessarily means "false".

 

I do not remember who was the guy who announced Barnier was fired, we should look it up ????

[Hi from France]

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-astrazeneca-vaccine-lockdown-covid-deaths-cases/

 

Its looks like virtual handshakes are off the table

We will soon see whether its the Telegraph or the Guardian that turns out to be right.

 

 

[Irate priest]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Telegraph source, so to be taken with a grain of salt.

its a pinch of salt not grain

[KhaoYai]

13 hours ago, sandyf said:

It may come as a surprise but opinions are not facts, and your are quite entitled to hold the opinion that brexit is over despite the unresolved issues.

I think what he means is that Brexit is over and whatever aftermath there may be, it has nothing to do with his opinions on this matter.

 

I think you will find that the majority of people here who object to the EU's stance on this matter do so because of the EU's recent history regarding the AZ product, not out of spite against the EU.  Looking at it from a purely logistical view - what were AZ to do with their stocks whilst the EU were mucking about saying their vaccine was no good for over 65's then it was, then halted its use over suspected linkage to blood clotting etc. etc. etc.? This product has a determined shelf life, they have to know what's going on with it.  It looks like the hesitancy has at least started to diminish but the bad PR the AZ product has had from this has done a lot of damage - would you send stock to a country where you knew it wasn't going to be used? 

 

From a purely business point of view, ignoring the contractual issues, long term, Astrazeneca has everything to gain from good PR but conversely, everything to lose from bad. I wouldn't want to be sending my product to a country where a). There is constant bad PR about the product and b). There's a good chance it won't be used.  Of course I'm talking purely commercially but the results AZ are getting from the UK's current success are a great selling point - this must come into their thinking.

 

I can't speak for others but my views are nothing to do with anti EU sentiment, I was a remainer. If the UK was behaving the same way as the EU have been, my views would be against the UK.  Wrong is wrong and I for one, have no loyalty to wrong doing.

 

I am also suspicious that by creating these problems with Astrazeneca, the EU is in part, simply trying to deflect crticism of its vaccine rollout.

[Hi from France]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

In other words a debate with you has to follow your rules otherwise you deflect by claiming the links do not qualify.

 

This despite you yourself providing alternative links including to the Telegraph to prove your facts, in other words breaking your own rules. Here's a few of your rule breaking links in the posts below:

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1210791-eu-rebuffs-uk-calls-to-ship-astrazeneca-covid-vaccines-from-europe/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-16337694

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1210791-eu-rebuffs-uk-calls-to-ship-astrazeneca-covid-vaccines-from-europe/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-16337684

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1210156-facing-crisis-of-century-eu-threatens-ban-on-covid-vaccine-exports-to-uk/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-16333354

 

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1210156-facing-crisis-of-century-eu-threatens-ban-on-covid-vaccine-exports-to-uk/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-16330102

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1210156-facing-crisis-of-century-eu-threatens-ban-on-covid-vaccine-exports-to-uk/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-16328651

 

To have an open debate facts can be drawn from a variety of sources. Even if you don't agree it can still be a fact from a credible source. Permission does not need to be gained from you to earn the right to link to other sources aside from your list. Its not your right alone to make that choice.

You are welcome to challenge my sources and opinions

 

I try to keep an open mind and, yes, while I think we should all have very little consideration for the ditch press, and fringe groups like facts4eu, I do read the Telegraph. Why should I not ?  ????

[KhaoYai]

20 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

But that wasn’t even the point and you don’t seem to get it. 

You're still digging that hole.

[cocoonclub]

Just now, KhaoYai said:

You're still digging that hole.

You really need to read before you reply to avoid looking like a fool. 

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

What are you and your son are doing in Central Thailand with a bear? The bear is a necessity of life?

Didn't you have The Jungle Book in France?

[KhaoYai]

4 minutes ago, cocoonclub said:

You really need to read before you reply to avoid looking like a fool. 

I'm referring to most of your posts but let me quote another old English saying to you - The Pot Calling The Kettle Black.

 

If you wish to suggest that anyone looks a fool, I suggest you look a little closer to home.

[cocoonclub]

3 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I'm referring to most of your posts

...and that made you:

3 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

looks a fool

 

[Hi from France]

5 minutes ago, Irate priest said:

its a pinch of salt not grain

Ok

 

still learning (and I should! see why below) in French we'd say "Il faut en prendre et en laisser"

 

 

So sorry for my English ????

 

Fun thing, I just got the result of my DNA kit test and my ethnicity results indicate my DNA is European and very British but definitely .... not French

[Hi from France]

29 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I am also suspicious that by creating these problems with Astrazeneca, the EU is in part, simply trying to deflect criticism of its vaccine rollout.

What makes you think the EU is creating problems with Astrazeneca? The EU approved it, did not suspend it (?), did recommend to start injecting again, bought it, wants more of it.

 

 

Would you not rather agree that The problem with AZ comes from

* the product itself

+ the disastrous scientific testing

+ the catastrophic production 

 

.. and that there are governments who are more risk-averse for their citizens: France, Germany, the USA, Sweden.... but not the EU itself  

 

 

as for the  vaccine roll-out why is it so chaotic with the AZ but fine with the other vaccines? Maybe simply because they deliver and scientifically prove their safety

 

 

 

note the French PM went to great lengths to reassure about the AZ: he got vaccinated in public on Thursday.

 

.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Hi from France

[CG1 Blue]

15 hours ago, sandyf said:

If the UK was that clever it would have ensured that all production was based in the UK. Brexit was all about cake and eating it.

Any country can initiate export control if said export would be detrimental the functioning of the country concerned. As far as the vaccine is concerned the UK is a victim of it's own success, nobody in their right mind can argue that the UK needs the vaccine more urgently than the EU.

If Germany's Pfizer had a major manufacturing plant in the UK and the UK government imposed export restrictions on Pfizer vaccines to the EU, I think that would be roundly criticised. Especially if the EU had a contract in place to receive those vaccines ahead of the UK. 

This is effectively what the EU are doing with AZ, right?  

[CG1 Blue]

33 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

What makes you think the EU is creating problems with Astrazeneca? The EU approved it, did not suspend it (?), did recommend to start injecting again, bought it, wants more of it.

 

 

Would you not rather agree that The problem with AZ comes from

* the product itself

+ the disastrous scientific testing

+ the catastrophic production 

 

.. and that there are governments who are more risk-averse for their citizens: France, Germany, the USA, Sweden.... but not the EU itself  

 

 

as for the  vaccine roll-out why is it so chaotic with the AZ but fine with the other vaccines? Maybe simply because they deliver and scientifically prove their safety

 

 

 

note the French PM went to great lengths to reassure about the AZ: he got vaccinated in public on Thursday.

 

.

So you think there has been no negative press from the EU and EU member states about AZ or the AZ vaccine? What rock have you been hiding under! 

And as for your criticism of AZ and the vaccine:

 

* the product itself

+ the disastrous scientific testing

+ the catastrophic production 

 

A vaccine developed by Oxford scientists in conjunction with AZ in record time, to help vaccinate the world against a deadly virus, distributing it at cost on a non-profit basis, a vaccine that is easily stored at fridge temperature and therefore hugely advantageous to poorer countries. 

A vaccine that has been fully approved by most of the major medical regulators. 

 

Some people are ungrateful and a little bit disingenuous I'd say.... 

 

 

[Hi from France]

18 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

So you think there has been no negative press 

There has been a lot of negative press and AZ deserves it

18 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

A vaccine developed by Oxford scientists in conjunction with AZ in record time, to help vaccinate the world against a deadly virus, distributing it at cost on a non-profit basis, a vaccine that is easily stored at fridge temperature and therefore hugely advantageous to poorer countries. 

I completely agree with that! And I hope that in the future AstraZeneca will deliver on these hopes 

 

18 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

A vaccine that has been fully approved by most of the major medical regulators. 

Hum hum.. 

[candide]

53 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

If Germany's Pfizer had a major manufacturing plant in the UK and the UK government imposed export restrictions on Pfizer vaccines to the EU, I think that would be roundly criticised. Especially if the EU had a contract in place to receive those vaccines ahead of the UK. 

This is effectively what the EU are doing with AZ, right?  

And our Brexiteer members would support their government for putting the interest of British people first! And blame treacherous Pfizer (which received around £300 million from the UK 6 months ago) for not supplying the ordered doses while diverting UK production to the EU! ????

[candide]

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