Visa Problem in UK

[Chill27]

I finally arrived in the UK with my Thai gf on Wednesday, to meet and stay with my elderly Mum.

We've had to delay traveling since last Oct until my Mum finally got vaccinated.

I made a huge mistake, thinking the 9th April expiry date on my GF's visa was date by which we needed to use the visa, but that we'd then be granted the 120 stay. I got it horribly wrong!

Now, almost as soon as we emerge from quarantine, my GF needs to leave the UK.

I'm thinking about us both going to Turkey for a month (visa free for Thai) and apply for a new UK visitor Visa from there, then hopefully return to the UK.

For us both to return to Thailand again, enter quarantine yet again, then apply for a new Visa in Bangkok, is going to be hugely expensive and complex.

Does anyone know if the British Embassy in Turkey will issue a UK visa for a Thai National.

Or anyone have any better ideas?

I've tried my local MP, but she couldn't help. Overstaying her Visa isn't an option, as she'd be unlikely to ever get another Visa in the future,

Thanks

[brewsterbudgen]

You should post this in the Visas/Migration to Other countries Forum, where you are more likely to get some informed replies.

[Upnotover]

Never done it but seems she ought to be able to extend her visa provided the total time in the UK does not exceed 6 months.  See here;

https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa/extend-your-stay

[Chill27]

2 hours ago, Upnotover said:

Never done it but seems she ought to be able to extend her visa provided the total time in the UK does not exceed 6 months.  See here;

https://www.gov.uk/standard-visitor-visa/extend-your-stay

Thanks so much. What a simple solution !

I'm still looking into it, as it seems too good to be true. I seem to have hit a brick wall with every possible other solution until now!

I'm angry that Border Force at Heathrow told me the only thing we could do was leave the country and apply for a new visa for her whilst outside the UK!

They knew nothing about this ability to extend.

From what I am reading, she can legally stay until she receives a decision, which at least gives us more time. Not cheap at a thousand quid, but cheaper than flying everywhere, quarantines, Covid Tests etc!

[metisdead]

Moved to the Visas and migration to other countries forum.

[7by7]

Looking at the visit visa guidance and Immigration Rules Appendix V: Visitor I'm not so sure that she will be able to extend her visa.

 

The guidance link under 'Visitor' at Apply for permission to stay in the UK - certain categories only just takes me back to the guidance linked to above, and following the links from "Before you start your application, read the FLR(IR) guidance...." just leads me round in circles!

 

But have you actually started the application process and so found more information? 

 

Hopefully someone with more knowledge on this will be along now that it's been moved to this forum.

 

If she is not eligible, then

17 hours ago, Chill27 said:

Does anyone know if the British Embassy in Turkey will issue a UK visa for a Thai National.

Only if that person is legally resident in Turkey. UK visas must be applied for in the applicant's country of residence.

[theoldgit]

On 3/28/2021 at 4:35 PM, Chill27 said:

I'm angry that Border Force at Heathrow told me the only thing we could do was leave the country and apply for a new visa for her whilst outside the UK!

They knew nothing about this ability to extend.

From what I am reading, she can legally stay until she receives a decision, which at least gives us more time. Not cheap at a thousand quid, but cheaper than flying everywhere, quarantines, Covid Tests etc!

To be fair on the Border Force Officer probably wouldn't be aware of the remote possibility of FLR for your girlfriend in the circumstances you describe, such applications would be routed through the UKVI rather than the UKBF, and would normally only be granted in exceptional cases, like medical treatment.
Whilst your girlfriend could apply from Turkey she would still need to provide documentary evidence similar to that in her initial application, finances, ties to Thailand etc, including letters from her employer, and of course there's always the possibility of travel restrictions being tightened, in any case you wouldn't be able to travel to Turkey with her.
To be frank, I've never heard of an extenFurther Leave being granted for applicants in your girfriends position, that doesn't mean that it never happens.
I think I'd be inclined to seek out an Immigration Advisor in the UK who is registered with the OISC, a Level 1 advisor should surfice.
Good Luck

 

https://www.gov.uk/find-an-immigration-adviser

[Chill27]

1 hour ago, theoldgit said:

To be fair on the Border Force Officer probably wouldn't be aware of the remote possibility of FLR for your girlfriend in the circumstances you describe, such applications would be routed through the UKVI rather than the UKBF, and would normally only be granted in exceptional cases, like medical treatment.
Whilst your girlfriend could apply from Turkey she would still need to provide documentary evidence similar to that in her initial application, finances, ties to Thailand etc, including letters from her employer, and of course there's always the possibility of travel restrictions being tightened, in any case you wouldn't be able to travel to Turkey with her.
To be frank, I've never heard of an extenFurther Leave being granted for applicants in your girfriends position, that doesn't mean that it never happens.
I think I'd be inclined to seek out an Immigration Advisor in the UK who is registered with the OISC, a Level 1 advisor should surfice.
Good Luck

 

https://www.gov.uk/find-an-immigration-adviser

Thanks for your reply. I'm currently working my way through the application with fear and trepidation. So far so good. Just repeats of the same questions on the original application, plus, "when did you arrive, when do you intend leaving, and reason for wanting to extend"?

Having read through the guidance notes, I think the "special circumstances" that you refer to are for if you wish to apply to stay for longer than the six months in one year total, which you can apply for in special circumstances, medical etc.p

We simply want to add back on the 5 1/2 months, to the only 2 weeks that we were able to use on her original visa due to the Covid situation.

I'll keep working through the form, which needs to be submitted before the expiry of her visa on 9th April.

As I read it, once the application to extend is submitted, she is legally allowed to remain whilst awaiting a decision, which can take up to 8 weeks.

I'll keep the forum informed as it may be useful to someone in the same situation. 

[Tony M]

I'm interested to see what the outcome is too.  You might be lucky and, because extensions of stay are being/have been granted due to the pandemic situation, your girlfriend might also be granted an "exceptional assurance".  But normally, as theoldgit says, no extension of a visit visa would be granted, except under exceptional circumstances. Otherwise everyone would be applying for extensions and trying to claim unused portions of the original granted visa. No way is the UKVI going to do that, especially if the reason that you didn't travel was your fault and not theirs. Visa holders who were unable to travel as there were no flights during the early days of the pandemic have tried to get visas extended or re-issued, and the UKVI have said no. 

[Chill27]

26 minutes ago, Tony M said:

I'm interested to see what the outcome is too.  You might be lucky and, because extensions of stay are being/have been granted due to the pandemic situation, your girlfriend might also be granted an "exceptional assurance".  But normally, as theoldgit says, no extension of a visit visa would be granted, except under exceptional circumstances. Otherwise everyone would be applying for extensions and trying to claim unused portions of the original granted visa. No way is the UKVI going to do that, especially if the reason that you didn't travel was your fault and not theirs. Visa holders who were unable to travel as there were no flights during the early days of the pandemic have tried to get visas extended or re-issued, and the UKVI have said no. 

I see what you're saying about UKVI wanting to deter people from applying for extension's. I assume that is why they charge over 900 pounds to submit an application !

Hopefully they will take into account that we couldn't come back to see my 87 year Mum sooner, as she hadn't been vaccinated. Visiting her, was stated as being our primary reason for visiting the UK on the original application! We will also have had to spend virtually our entire time here stuck in quarantine, if we are forced to leave on 9th April.

I have an application for the "exceptional assurance" also submitted a few days ago to the Home Office.

The submission for a Visa extension would nullify that application, so I am hoping to hear back from the Home Office first before going ahead and spending the 900+ pounds on the Visa Extension application.

[Chill27]

Here are the notes taken from the UK Gov website, regarding Visitor Visa Extensions and before that, guidance notes for caseworkers.

From the wording, it sounds more like a formality, rather than something that is only granted in exceptional circumstances!

I'd be interested if anyone here has had personal experience in applying?

 

"Extensions  for  long-term  multiple-entry  visit  visas If a  visitor  holds  a  long-term  multiple-entry visa  and they  want to  stay for  longer  than the  visa expiry  date,  it  is  possible  for  them  to  apply  to  extend  their  permission  for  up to  the  maximum  6  months  permitted for  visitors (standard).  For example,  a  visitor arrives  in January and their  long-term  visit  visa is  due to  expire  in  February.  Provided the  visitor  meets  the  Rules,  they  can  extend  for  up to  6  months,  until  June,  as a visitor (standard).  A  single entry  or  6-month  visa  can also  be extended to complete 6 months’ in  the  UK as  a  visitor.  Applications  must  be made before the  original permission  expires"

Extend your stay

You may be able to extend your stay as long as the total time you spend in the UK as a visitor is no more than 6 months.

For example if you have been in the UK as a visitor for 3 months, you can apply to extend your stay for 3 more months.

Read the guidance to find out if you can extend your visit.

You must apply while you’re still in the UK and before your current visa expires.

If you want to extend your stay for longer than 6 months

You can only apply to extend your stay as a visitor for over 6 months if you’re:

• a patient receiving medical treatment
• an academic and you still meet the eligibility requirements
• a graduate doing a clinical attachment or retaking the Professional and Linguistic Assessment Board (PLAB) test

[NanLaew]

14 hours ago, Chill27 said:

We simply want to add back on the 5 1/2 months, to the only 2 weeks that we were able to use on her original visa due to the Covid situation.

I doubt the extension allows for lack of oversight or misunderstanding on validity by the visa holder.

 

On another note, was she planning to max out the whole 6-month visit visa and stay in the UK for the whole 6 months? Was this intent stated in the original visit visa application?

[youreavinalaff]

On 3/27/2021 at 10:22 PM, Chill27 said:

We've had to delay traveling since last Oct until my Mum finally got vaccinated.

I don't think this reason will stand up in an application for an extension.

 

This is only an opinion of yours. There is no rule to say that you could not visit your mum sooner. There were no travel bans and no quarantine rules in UK until very recently. There were not even any lockdown restrictions in October.

 

Sadly, I don't think UKVI will be interested in an extension application based on one's own thoughts.

 

Good luck anyway.

[7by7]

As far as I can make out, for a standard visit visa to be extended the reasons for requesting such have to be beyond the applicant's control. This is clearly not the case for your girlfriend. I have to agree with that you have little chance of success.

 

You say

On 3/27/2021 at 10:22 PM, Chill27 said:

We've had to delay traveling since last Oct until my Mum finally got vaccinated.

But the simple truth is, as others have said, that you did not have to do so; you chose to do so. 

 

There was no UK vaccination programme last October. The first vaccine approval wasn't until the 2nd December and the first vaccinations were on the 8th December. Even if there were, there is no reason why you could not have travelled to the UK in October.

 

Thailand isn't, and never has been, on the red list. So you could have quarantined at a private residence or hotel of your own choosing. Wherever you are doing that now, you could have done so last October.

 

Unless your mum is in a care home, you could then have visited her immediately your quarantine was over. In fact, you could have stayed with her whilst in quarantine!

 

How to quarantine when you arrive in England. (Note the links there for the slightly different rules if in Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales.)

Quote

Rules for the people you stay with

The people you’re staying with do not need to quarantine, unless:

they travelled with you

you or someone in the place where you’re staying develop symptoms of coronavirus

 

On 3/27/2021 at 10:22 PM, Chill27 said:

I made a huge mistake, thinking the 9th April expiry date on my GF's visa was date by which we needed to use the visa, but that we'd then be granted the 120 stay. I got it horribly wrong!

Indeed you did; and I doubt that the decision makers will accept your mistake as a valid reason for an extension.

 

But I may be wrong, and wish you luck. Please let us know the outcome.

 

 

[Chill27]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

I don't think this reason will stand up in an application for an extension.

 

This is only an opinion of yours. There is no rule to say that you could not visit your mum sooner. There were no travel bans and no quarantine rules in UK until very recently. There were not even any lockdown restrictions in October.

 

Sadly, I don't think UKVI will be interested in an extension application based on one's own thoughts.

 

Good luck anyway.

Thanks and I agree with what you say. But nothing in the guidance or notes above say anything about needing a very good excuse in order to get approval. It simply says that you can do so, provided you are within the rules, and that your visa can then be extended for up to the six month total. There is nothing about only in "rare, exceptional circumstances" .

I would have thought that if they are charging people over 900 pounds, they would at least make it clear that you have very little chance of getting approved, that would seem extremely dishonest, misleading and lacking in transparency not to make that clear to potential applicants!

That is why I would be interested to hear if anyone has real life experience in actually making such an application, then getting rejected or approved.

5 hours ago, NanLaew said:

I doubt the extension allows for lack of oversight or misunderstanding on validity by the visa holder.

 

On another note, was she planning to max out the whole 6-month visit visa and stay in the UK for the whole 6 months? Was this intent stated in the original visit visa application?

Yes it was made clear on the original application that she intended to stay the full six months.

Regarding the lack of oversight.

A word of warning to others. If you Google the search term "visa expiry meaning" from within Thailand, you will bring up many results that I now realise, were from American sites, this is what mislead me into thinking that Expiry date was the last date to use the Visa, but then the immigration officer stamps the allowed permission to stay period.

If I conduct the same Google search here in the UK, I am now getting the correct answers that are applicable to the the UK system rather than the US.

[Chill27]

32 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

As far as I can make out, for a standard visit visa to be extended the reasons for requesting such have to be beyond the applicant's control. This is clearly not the case for your girlfriend. I have to agree with that you have little chance of success.

 

You say

But the simple truth is, as others have said, that you did not have to do so; you chose to do so. 

 

There was no UK vaccination programme last October. The first vaccine approval wasn't until the 2nd December and the first vaccinations were on the 8th December. Even if there were, there is no reason why you could not have travelled to the UK in October.

 

Thailand isn't, and never has been, on the red list. So you could have quarantined at a private residence or hotel of your own choosing. Wherever you are doing that now, you could have done so last October.

 

Unless your mum is in a care home, you could then have visited her immediately your quarantine was over. In fact, you could have stayed with her whilst in quarantine!

 

How to quarantine when you arrive in England. (Note the links there for the slightly different rules if in Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales.)

 

Indeed you did; and I doubt that the decision makers will accept your mistake as a valid reason for an extension.

 

But I may be wrong, and wish you luck. Please let us know the outcome.

 

 

You said:

 

"As far as I can make out, for a standard visit visa to be extended the reasons for requesting such have to be beyond the applicant's control " 

 

This is the bit that I'm just not seeing from reading the Guidance notes etc on the Government Website. Many people here are saying the same thing as yourself, but I seem to be unable to find it anywhere in the notes.

I do not disbelieve you, or any forum members, although, obviously, I'd like you to be incorrect!

It would just be very helpful if I could see it in writing, that an application needs to have exceptional circumstances in order to gain approval.

From the Government's point of view, she's already gained approval for entry, all she's requesting to do is bring her stay in the UK forward a few months, but she will be having to pay a high administration fee to do so, which is probably fair enough!

It's more costly probably than flying back to Thailand and submitting a fresh application from there (in normal times) As such more money in the Government's coffers!

Anyway I really appreciate your input, and that of others, and thanks very much for the good luck.

I guess the only way I'll find out will be to take a gamble with another 900 odd quid and see how it goes.

 

[NanLaew]

18 hours ago, Chill27 said:

Yes it was made clear on the original application that she intended to stay the full six months.

 

That's good. A few have made the mistake of 'overstaying' by staying longer than they stated in their application, despite leaving within the 6-month limit. It's been known to crop up in a rejection notice for a subsequent visit visa application.

 

18 hours ago, Chill27 said:

A word of warning to others. If you Google the search term "visa expiry meaning" from within Thailand, you will bring up many results that I now realise, were from American sites, this is what mislead me into thinking that Expiry date was the last date to use the Visa, but then the immigration officer stamps the allowed permission to stay period.

If I conduct the same Google search here in the UK, I am now getting the correct answers that are applicable to the the UK system rather than the US.

 

The perils of the internet. It's been a while since Mrs NL applied for a UK visit visa but I recall when she did that special attention was drawn to the dates of its validity while making the application and after it was issued. This was primarily due to the fact that the "use before" stipulation of the Thai visa is totally different. Maybe they're not doing that any more.

[Chill27]

4 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

That's good. A few have made the mistake of 'overstaying' by staying longer than they stated in their application, despite leaving within the 6-month limit. It's been known to crop up in a rejection notice for a subsequent visit visa application.

 

 

The perils of the internet. It's been a while since Mrs NL applied for a UK visit visa but I recall when she did that special attention was drawn to the dates of its validity while making the application and after it was issued. This was primarily due to the fact that the "use before" stipulation of the Thai visa is totally different. Maybe they're not doing that any more.

Agreed. And the whole thing could  been avoided if they issued a paper along with the Visa, spelling out what "Expiry Date" actually means for a UK visa. Apparently in the US and China the term means last date to use the Visa, but it is then at the discretion of the Border agent to stamp the passport with the "Permission to stay until" period.

This is what I was reading. In fact it was actually labelled "Best Answer", which totally convinced me. Unfortunately it was obviously a US specific answer!

That system makes far more sense to me, as nobody can use the Visa on the very day that it's issued, meaning that it's virtually impossible to use the whole 180 days allowed. Whereas with the other system, you are not losing out on your 180 days whilst booking flights, accommodation etc and have flexibility in arranging a travel date without losing some of what you paid for, ie a 6 month visa, not a 5 or 4 month visa!

[Upnotover]

10 minutes ago, Chill27 said:

Apparently in the US and China the term means last date to use the Visa

...and indeed Thailand.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Chill27 said:

<snip>

And the whole thing could  been avoided if they issued a paper along with the Visa, spelling out what "Expiry Date" actually means for a UK visa.

 

Sorry, but 'expiry date' has a specific meaning in English: "the date at which a document, agreement, etc. has no legal force or can no longer be used." (Source)

 

The last time I looked, UK visit visas also had two dates; valid from and valid until.

 

When did this change?

[Chill27]

27 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Sorry, but 'expiry date' has a specific meaning in English: "the date at which a document, agreement, etc. has no legal force or can no longer be used." (Source)

 

The last time I looked, UK visit visas also had two dates; valid from and valid until.

 

When did this change?

As I have previously tried to explain above. I conducted Google searches from within Thailand and was directed to US specific information, without it being made clear that it only applied to the US. The example below DOES clearly state "US" but many articles and message boards that I read, did not.

I any case, I would never have thought that two countries as close as the US and the UK, would have two totally different interpretations of the term "Expiry Date" !

In the US, Expiry Date means the last date you are permitted to enter the US, but you are then allocated a length of stay by the border official!

 

Here:

"Please be aware, a visa does not guarantee entry to the United States. Additionally, the visa expiration date shown on your visa does not reflect how long you are authorized to stay within the United States. Entry and the length of authorized stay within the United States are determined by the Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Officer at the port-of-entry each time you travel."

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, Chill27 said:

<snip>

As I have previously tried to explain above. I conducted Google searches from within Thailand and was directed to US specific information, without it being made clear that it only applied to the US.

 

That is not the fault of UKVI, UK Border Force nor any other UK government department! 

 

I wish you luck in her application to extend; but if you are relying on information you read about US visas as a reason for an extension; forget it.

 

8 minutes ago, Chill27 said:

<snip>

I any case, I would never have thought that two countries as close as the US and the UK, would have two totally different interpretations of the term "Expiry Date" !

 

As in many areas and laws, the UK and US have different immigration rules and procedures.

 

I'm surprised you are unaware of the many differences between US English and UK English! For example; trousers and pants, pavement and sidewalk, chips and fries, jam and jelly. Indeed, as your quote shows, in the US they don't use 'expiry date,' the use 'expiration date.' 

 

Does your girlfriend's visa just have one, expiry date on it or does it have two dates, from and until, as per the example I posted?

[theoldgit]

I do have some sympathy with the OP, whilst the vignette does state that there is an expiry date, and many of us are aware that expiry date means that the visa holder must leave the UK on or before that date, the UKBA website no longer makes it clear.
It certainly used to do so, but if it’s there, I can’t find it, at least without trawling through tens of pages of guidance, and I’m pretty much up to speed with the rules, so know what to look for.

As he points out the Thai Visa has an enter before date, which is completely different to its UK counterpart, so could be forgiven for being confused.

I’m afraid this is yet another example of the UKVI websites being less than clear whilst expecting ‘customers’ to comply with the regulations.

 

 

 

[Chill27]

1 hour ago, theoldgit said:

I do have some sympathy with the OP, whilst the vignette does state that there is an expiry date, and many of us are aware that expiry date means that the visa holder must leave the UK on or before that date, the UKBA website no longer makes it clear.
It certainly used to do so, but if it’s there, I can’t find it, at least without trawling through tens of pages of guidance, and I’m pretty much up to speed with the rules, so know what to look for.

As he points out the Thai Visa has an enter before date, which is completely different to its UK counterpart, so could be forgiven for being confused.

I’m afraid this is yet another example of the UKVI websites being less than clear whilst expecting ‘customers’ to comply with the regulations.

 

 

 

Yes indeed. I spent the whole of yesterday trying to ascertain whether I needed to pay the National Health Contribution (IHS). Whilst completing the Visa Extension application I was asked to provide my IHS registration number.

I phoned a migration lawyer, no joy. I then phoned the Home Office Visa section. Very expensive phone call, but very unhelpful, he was basically just quoting from a computer, what I had already read myself.

But the Government notes state that Visitor Visas applied for offshore are exempt from the 640 pound IHS payment. Great!

But the very same document states that all Visas applied for onshore ie me, do have to pay the IHS!

So which was it?

The original application was made offshore = No Payment

But I was now applying onshore = Payment Due !

I spent the whole day trying to find the answer to a very simple question. The Home Office guy even told me that I was completing the wrong form!

I wasn't. I started again and was presented with the very same form.

Today I just went ahead anyway. Got directed from the Visa Application form, to the IHS form, completed it with the visa application details, and thankfully it came back with a Zero payment due and gave me the required registration number.

But what a worrying, extremely stressful rigmarole, just because the notes were not clear and very confusing.

[treetops]

On 3/31/2021 at 9:37 AM, Chill27 said:

That system makes far more sense to me, as nobody can use the Visa on the very day that it's issued, meaning that it's virtually impossible to use the whole 180 days allowed.

 

You used to be able to request for it to be post dated to start on the applicant's expected date of arrival, thus making the 180 days all available.  Is that no longer the case?

[7by7]

22 hours ago, theoldgit said:

I do have some sympathy with the OP, whilst the vignette does state that there is an expiry date,

 

On 3/31/2021 at 10:55 AM, 7by7 said:

The last time I looked, UK visit visas also had two dates; valid from and valid until.

Is this no longer the case?

 

I did ask @Chill27

On 3/31/2021 at 11:57 AM, 7by7 said:

Does your girlfriend's visa just have one, expiry date on it or does it have two dates, from and until, as per the example I posted?

but he has not answered.

 

22 hours ago, theoldgit said:

many of us are aware that expiry date means that the visa holder must leave the UK on or before that date, the UKBA website no longer makes it clear.

What I have been told by applicants is that a lot of the guidance which used to be on the website is now part of the online process. The last application I was personally involved in was my stepson's in 2017, and I'm sure in his application he was asked the date he wished to travel to the UK.

 

I cannot find out without making an actual application; can anyone whose done so recently say if this is still the case?

[7by7]

26 minutes ago, treetops said:

 

You used to be able to request for it to be post dated to start on the applicant's expected date of arrival, thus making the 180 days all available.  Is that no longer the case?

 

When I first became interested, 20 plus years ago, UK visit visas were valid from the date of issue; unless a specified date was requested, which could be up to 90 days ahead.

 

Can't say exactly when, but more recently, certainly since the application process went online, applicants have been asked as part of the application to provide an intended date of travel; which can be up to 90 days ahead.

 

As far as I am aware, this is still the case. However, I await answers to the questions asked above to confirm or deny if this has changed.

[puchooay]

My wife's most recent application was September 2019. A travel date was asked for and the visa was dated on that date.

 

He visa sticker, dated 08/11/19 has 2 dates. A valid from date and a valid until date.

[Tanoshi]

On 3/31/2021 at 3:37 PM, Chill27 said:

That system makes far more sense to me, as nobody can use the Visa on the very day that it's issued, meaning that it's virtually impossible to use the whole 180 days allowed.

You can request the Visa is post dated to coincide with your arrival in the UK to take full advantage of the allowed 180 day stay.

[Tanoshi]

3 hours ago, puchooay said:

He visa sticker, dated 08/11/19 has 2 dates. A valid from date and a valid until date.

UK Visa do not state 'valid' from and until, which implies that is the validity in which the Visa can be used to enter a specific Country, as Thai Visas do.

UK Visas state 'from' and 'until' dates, being the period(s) during which you can enter and stay.