Would you consider Portugal?

[mr_lob]

We moved from Thailand to Portugal nearly 2 years ago after many years. Brit, Thai wife, 2 kids.

We live in the Algarve and absolutely love it. 

Cons - property prices are higher than Thailand. Yes, it can get cold in the winter but its sunny most of the time and we enjoy the seasonal changes. It only lasts 3 months anyway...over 300 days of sun here. Eating out costs more than Thailand, but the quality of seafood and meats is far superior.

Pros - Pretty much everything else. Safety, beaches, things to do, food shopping, markets. Not a big drinker any more but when i do go out for a beer, its less than half the price of Thailand. Did i mention the wine? Ridiculous. Accessibility to the rest of Europe is a huge bonus.

Getting settled was incredibly easy compared to Thailand, only 15 Euros each for a 5 year residency and only a few pieces of paperwork.

We haven't looked back, although we miss Thailand and will spend our time between the 2 countries once the kids have finished school.

[mr_lob]

Oh, and the people are very friendly and it's so nice to be welcomed and not looked down on as a 'farang' ????

[Caldera]

Portugal is one of 3 countries in the EU I would consider, along with Greece and Spain.

 

That's just a plan B though, I currently have no intention (and see no reason) to leave Thailand. As I hold a passport of another EU country, from an immigration point of view, such a move would be a cake walk for me.

[Tagged]

1 hour ago, mr_lob said:

We moved from Thailand to Portugal nearly 2 years ago after many years. Brit, Thai wife, 2 kids.

We live in the Algarve and absolutely love it. 

Cons - property prices are higher than Thailand. Yes, it can get cold in the winter but its sunny most of the time and we enjoy the seasonal changes. It only lasts 3 months anyway...over 300 days of sun here. Eating out costs more than Thailand, but the quality of seafood and meats is far superior.

Pros - Pretty much everything else. Safety, beaches, things to do, food shopping, markets. Not a big drinker any more but when i do go out for a beer, its less than half the price of Thailand. Did i mention the wine? Ridiculous. Accessibility to the rest of Europe is a huge bonus.

Getting settled was incredibly easy compared to Thailand, only 15 Euros each for a 5 year residency and only a few pieces of paperwork.

We haven't looked back, although we miss Thailand and will spend our time between the 2 countries once the kids have finished school.

How does your wife adopt to life there? Thai friends, language?

[Scouse123]

What about Sunny beach, the Black sea resort in Bulgaria for those watching their money from pensions?

 

Accommodation, beer, food, eating out all is very cheap and a relatively safe country, no problems with religion.

 

Even purchasing a condominium far superior in value for money to Thailand. A  large condo with the usual swimming pools and good facilities starts at 20,000 GBP, A good one no more than 30,000 GBP. Renting is cheap.

 

A lot of sunshine, sure you have a few cold months. Alpine in the North to sub tropical in the South.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_Beach

 

https://www.aplaceinthesun.com/property/bulgaria/burgas/sunny-beach

 

 

[simon43]

38 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

What about Sunny beach, the Black sea resort in Bulgaria for those watching their money from pensions?

 

Accommodation, beer, food, eating out all is very cheap and a relatively safe country, no problems with religion.

 

Even purchasing a condominium far superior in value for money to Thailand. A  large condo with the usual swimming pools and good facilities starts at 20,000 GBP, A good one no more than 30,000 GBP. Renting is cheap.

 

A lot of sunshine, sure you have a few cold months. Alpine in the North to sub tropical in the South.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_Beach

 

https://www.aplaceinthesun.com/property/bulgaria/burgas/sunny-beach

 

 

Good Gawd man!  I just took a look at a YouTube video about Sunny Beach.  It's just full of drunken yobs and slappers!! ????

[Scouse123]

2 minutes ago, simon43 said:

Good Gawd man!  I just took a look at a YouTube video about Sunny Beach.  It's just full of drunken yobs and slappers!! ????

 

 

All those who live in Pattaya will love it!????????

[mr_lob]

1 hour ago, Tagged said:

How does your wife adopt to life there? Thai friends, language?

English is widely spoken, so not really an issue, but we know the basics of Portuguese which is always appreciated.

Thai community is very small here, nothing like London etc, but the Thais we have met have been nice.

[Gabriel1]

Jingthing, I have be researching Portugal for Several years.  I lived in thailand for 7 years and now live, in Cambodia.  I hate governments that are too, too controlling and always changing the rules.  At my age, i have not interest in keeping track of nonsense requirements, 90 day, yearly visa renewal different office define rules differently etc..  That is why I moved to Cambodia.  When I need a visa, I go to my local travel agent, drop off my passport and leave.  No lines, no docs to fill out, now wait. no going out of my way to get to service.  A few days latter my visa is returned to me.  If one lives here for 6 months, Cambodia considers you a resident and one can get a residency document.  The Cambodians, in my experience are amongst the finest people on the planet. On to Portugal.

I want a change and Portugal on the surface looked great.  It is a beautiful country.  After 13 years in SE Asia I like hot.  In portugal, the Algarve the water at its warmest is in the high 60's, maybe in a special year peaks in the low 70's.  Ambient temp can even get into the 70's in the day in the winter months in the Algarve, but night can get as low as 40.  In terms of shutting down in the winter months in the Algarve, that is true if you live in the tourist areas.  I would live in the east Algarve, because real working class Portuguese people live there, so like pace in normal.  The rest of the country offers a multitude of microclimates.  The further north you go noth, on the average,  the more rain you get and the more cloudy skies you wild get.  For me, that eliminates all put the Algarve and Aliento regions.  Aliento is the largest  province in Portugal and can get extreme hot and cold weather.  It also has the lowest population density, and is the home of some of the best wines in Portugal.  Most people know Portugal for it's port, and so go up river from Porto for wine exploration.  In the Aliento region there is one winery still making wines according to the recipe of the Romans.  Now that is something.

The residency visa process just changed. It used to bet first visa 1 year. then 2 visas one each over the next 4 years.  They have cut that down to 2 visas over 5 years and the you have permanent residency and you can apply for citizenship. 

Biggest problem with portugal is that the country is economically operating under austerity, so all services suffer.  Bureaucrats, from what I heard have not had a pay raise for year and their service can reflect that.  My direct experience has been with the Portugal embassy in Bangkok.  They never answer my emails regarding migration.  One day I called and the fellow was completely unhelpful.  You are not required to pursue your residency in your country of citizenship, but in you country of residency.  For me that would be Cambodia, and that would also include my my local police report.  I had originally thought I would do the residency myself, and then decided I would use a migration expert.  I can give you a number of contact for those services.  Also, Portugal has changed their original offer of no tax for 10 years for retirees to 10% tax for 10 years.  That began me rethinking Portugal as a my choice.  I was going to invest in the country and buy property and a car, that is a big commitment.  Then it seemed to be like a thailand with shifting rules and making otherwise easy tasks difficult. 

Over the entire research time  had been following a fellow on YouTube titled the nomad capitalist, and he advises "go where you are treated best".  It changed my way of searching for a country.  I discovered Panama, and had the usual bias, latin America and must be bad.  I recommend you search YouTube for Panama retirement visas, and you will find the equivalent of a wet dream.  No country is close.  Also, the country is top grad credit rating and has a very large expat community from all over the world.  For a deeper dive on the quality of the country click this link.  These 2 people are both well known and considered very competent.  jacki would be the go to source for migration details  

   also has at Atlantic ocean shoreline and a Pacific ocean shore line.  Weather similar to SE Asia if you chose warm. If you go to the mountains you can have 70's in daytime 12 months a year and never need neat.  By changing elevation one can customize the weather to their comfort zone.  Water is warm and very long coastline.  Good infrastructure.  Also, consensus report is that health care is excellent.  If you are particularly picky about health care, in Panama city one of the major hospitals is run by John Hopkins University, which is renowned for its med school. Now I am skewed hard to Panama.  Did a revist last night on Portugal property and compared to Panama.  I Portugal I must live in a condo or apartment.  In Panama  also live in those, right on the beach and have a plethora of options for stand alone homes a good costs. If you want all your questions answered by Portugal experts go to facebook and search for "American and friends in portugal".  This is the best most professionally run website I found anywhere.  Good luck in you choice. 

 

PS on the safety.  Most info indicates Portugal is near tops on the safety ratings of nations.  However, I was researching hotels in the Algarve and a couple of post people felt insecure due to gang like groups in the area of the hotel.  Also, I Have read that in Lisbon has street group trying to push drugs on tourists aggressively.  On person complain on fellow got a bit physical when rejected.  No place is perfect.  You decide on those points.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Gabriel1

[Jingthing]

On 4/12/2021 at 2:15 PM, Caldera said:

Portugal is one of 3 countries in the EU I would consider, along with Greece and Spain.

 

That's just a plan B though, I currently have no intention (and see no reason) to leave Thailand. As I hold a passport of another EU country, from an immigration point of view, such a move would be a cake walk for me.

Yes, this is about adding another option to my Plan B as well as Thailand doesn't offer residency security for retirees. 

[Jingthing]

On 4/12/2021 at 12:45 PM, mr_lob said:

We moved from Thailand to Portugal nearly 2 years ago after many years. Brit, Thai wife, 2 kids.

We live in the Algarve and absolutely love it. 

Cons - property prices are higher than Thailand. Yes, it can get cold in the winter but its sunny most of the time and we enjoy the seasonal changes. It only lasts 3 months anyway...over 300 days of sun here. Eating out costs more than Thailand, but the quality of seafood and meats is far superior.

Pros - Pretty much everything else. Safety, beaches, things to do, food shopping, markets. Not a big drinker any more but when i do go out for a beer, its less than half the price of Thailand. Did i mention the wine? Ridiculous. Accessibility to the rest of Europe is a huge bonus.

Getting settled was incredibly easy compared to Thailand, only 15 Euros each for a 5 year residency and only a few pieces of paperwork.

We haven't looked back, although we miss Thailand and will spend our time between the 2 countries once the kids have finished school.

So you came in there with an E.U. or U.K. passport?

Because the D7 I'm looking at for non E.U. is doable but takes a lot of work. 

[Jingthing]

On 4/12/2021 at 9:26 PM, Gabriel1 said:

Jingthing, I have be researching Portugal for Several years.  I lived in thailand for 7 years and now live, in Cambodia.  I hate governments that are too, too controlling and always changing the rules.  At my age, i have not interest in keeping track of nonsense requirements, 90 day, yearly visa renewal different office define rules differently etc..  That is why I moved to Cambodia.  When I need a visa, I go to my local travel agent, drop off my passport and leave.  No lines, no docs to fill out, now wait. no going out of my way to get to service.  A few days latter my visa is returned to me.  If one lives here for 6 months, Cambodia considers you a resident and one can get a residency document.  The Cambodians, in my experience are amongst the finest people on the planet. On to Portugal.

I want a change and Portugal on the surface looked great.  It is a beautiful country.  After 13 years in SE Asia I like hot.  In portugal, the Algarve the water at its warmest is in the high 60's, maybe in a special year peaks in the low 70's.  Ambient temp can even get into the 70's in the day in the winter months in the Algarve, but night can get as low as 40.  In terms of shutting down in the winter months in the Algarve, that is true if you live in the tourist areas.  I would live in the east Algarve, because real working class Portuguese people live there, so like pace in normal.  The rest of the country offers a multitude of microclimates.  The further north you go noth, on the average,  the more rain you get and the more cloudy skies you wild get.  For me, that eliminates all put the Algarve and Aliento regions.  Aliento is the largest  province in Portugal and can get extreme hot and cold weather.  It also has the lowest population density, and is the home of some of the best wines in Portugal.  Most people know Portugal for it's port, and so go up river from Porto for wine exploration.  In the Aliento region there is one winery still making wines according to the recipe of the Romans.  Now that is something.

The residency visa process just changed. It used to bet first visa 1 year. then 2 visas one each over the next 4 years.  They have cut that down to 2 visas over 5 years and the you have permanent residency and you can apply for citizenship. 

Biggest problem with portugal is that the country is economically operating under austerity, so all services suffer.  Bureaucrats, from what I heard have not had a pay raise for year and their service can reflect that.  My direct experience has been with the Portugal embassy in Bangkok.  They never answer my emails regarding migration.  One day I called and the fellow was completely unhelpful.  You are not required to pursue your residency in your country of citizenship, but in you country of residency.  For me that would be Cambodia, and that would also include my my local police report.  I had originally thought I would do the residency myself, and then decided I would use a migration expert.  I can give you a number of contact for those services.  Also, Portugal has changed their original offer of no tax for 10 years for retirees to 10% tax for 10 years.  That began me rethinking Portugal as a my choice.  I was going to invest in the country and buy property and a car, that is a big commitment.  Then it seemed to be like a thailand with shifting rules and making otherwise easy tasks difficult. 

Over the entire research time  had been following a fellow on YouTube titled the nomad capitalist, and he advises "go where you are treated best".  It changed my way of searching for a country.  I discovered Panama, and had the usual bias, latin America and must be bad.  I recommend you search YouTube for Panama retirement visas, and you will find the equivalent of a wet dream.  No country is close.  Also, the country is top grad credit rating and has a very large expat community from all over the world.  For a deeper dive on the quality of the country click this link.  These 2 people are both well known and considered very competent.  jacki would be the go to source for migration details  

   also has at Atlantic ocean shoreline and a Pacific ocean shore line.  Weather similar to SE Asia if you chose warm. If you go to the mountains you can have 70's in daytime 12 months a year and never need neat.  By changing elevation one can customize the weather to their comfort zone.  Water is warm and very long coastline.  Good infrastructure.  Also, consensus report is that health care is excellent.  If you are particularly picky about health care, in Panama city one of the major hospitals is run by John Hopkins University, which is renowned for its med school. Now I am skewed hard to Panama.  Did a revist last night on Portugal property and compared to Panama.  I Portugal I must live in a condo or apartment.  In Panama  also live in those, right on the beach and have a plethora of options for stand alone homes a good costs. If you want all your questions answered by Portugal experts go to facebook and search for "American and friends in portugal".  This is the best most professionally run website I found anywhere.  Good luck in you choice. 

 

PS on the safety.  Most info indicates Portugal is near tops on the safety ratings of nations.  However, I was researching hotels in the Algarve and a couple of post people felt insecure due to gang like groups in the area of the hotel.  Also, I Have read that in Lisbon has street group trying to push drugs on tourists aggressively.  On person complain on fellow got a bit physical when rejected.  No place is perfect.  You decide on those points.

That post contains a lot to chew on which explains my delay in responding.

Obviously each of us has our own situations, priorities, needs, likes and dislikes, etc.

 

From my POV Cambodia is too "wild west" for my taste and I think it's still not advanced enough in health care. Of course their retirement visa process is indeed wonderfully easy and cheap compared to Thailand. 

 

As far as need for hot weather, well, I don't need it. I do hate very cold weather but my ideal is one of those "year long spring" climates such as in the Paisa region (Medellin but I've rejected that as too bubbly and high crime / Coffee axis cities (Armenia, Pereira, Manizales) / Bucaramanga areas of Colombia and the central colonial cities of Mexico such as  (especially) Queretaro, Guadalajara, and Guanajuato. 

 

I understand that's not exactly what Portugal offers especially going north. But it's a matter of level and I think I could tolerate some cold for some months.

 

A priority for me is never needing a car or bike. That makes cities like Porto and Lisbon with excellent public transportation attractive. 

 

As far as Panama, no I haven't been there (but have been to Costa Rica) and based on my research I've rejected it. Yes the visa is doable and the welcome is real, but where I would really want to live there is Panama City and that isn't cheap enough for me. 

 

So the obvious other option is expat ghetto Boquette which I guess I could do but don't particularly want to. 

 

My impression is that the food isn't great either. (For me Costa Rica has the most boring food I've ever eaten.) 

 

So in Latin America, Colombia and Mexico remain the only options on my Plan B list. 

 

As far as Portugal I really do see the strong pros but there are also strong cons for me.

 

The strongest con may be that even though I think I could qualify financially for the D7 visa, it would be a lot more expensive to live a decent life than the basic requirements. Particularly for housing. So that means some pretty serious compromises. Like maybe needing to move into marginally safe, far out neighborhoods, moving to small boring cities far out of Lisbon, moving into tiny and/or crappy apartments etc.

 

Portugal has become very popular for expats. That means real estate cost bubbles in expat popular areas. 

 

Compare that to the option of moving into a largish, modern, luxury condo with a great view in a central safe top rated neighborhood in a city like Manizales Colombia (often compared to San Francisco) for approximately 450 USD a month and something not as fabulous but still very decent for 250 USD. 

 

Bang for the buck is a big draw to moving abroad. If I'm going to have to live rough it might be smarter just to repatriate to the U.S. 

 

I could get around that by digging more deeply into my retirement funds but that would be risky.

 

Another downside is psychological. It's a little embarrassing and irrational but I find the sound of European Portuguese to be unpleasant. I feel the same way about Vietnamese. I remember getting on the plane going home from my long trip to Portugal and being relieved that I wouldn't have to hear it anymore. I much prefer Spanish (preferably Latin American Spanish) or Brazilian Portuguese (although I have no interest in moving to Brazil). 

 

Perhaps that could be addressed with hypnosis or something, ha ha, but why force it. Also after five years, to go for permanent residence or citizenship you do need to speak at least basic Portuguese.

 

I looked into some of the complicating issues I mentioned in my O.P. and did conclude that they were probably all addressable with the use of a presumably expensive agent.

 

This video in particular was most helpful.

 

To mention some of them:

 

Bank account in Portugal? Can be opened through agent. Or you could open on a trip of course.

 

Money in Portugal which is now generally needed for the initial D7 application outside. Obviously you can wire that in once you have the account.

 

Amount initially needed? Approximately 10,000 USD.

 

There is controversy about the exact income requirements. This video says 1000 Euro per month. In reality the law says considerably less. But each embassy/consulate has their own criteria and they have discretion to decide if you are or aren't economically viable, so 1000 Euro would be on the safe side. That's the main reason for rejection. Under funded.

 

According to this video it is mentioned that ASSETS can also be considered. I'm a little skeptical about that. Have not seen the law on that. 

 

Need to show an address? No problem through an agent. They can provide a welcome letter to a specific address. Sorted. 

 

Health insurance? Generally you can buy via the agent the initial four months policy through the bank of your account.

 

Apparently (and this was very surprising, needs confirmation) after the initial residency process in Portugal you can join the very decent national health care program. I assume there is some cost but that sounds almost too good to be true especially for older people with preexisting conditions. (Colombia has a similar offer.)

 

On the taxation thing, OK so it isn't tax free for 10 years, but would Portugal go after foreign sourced income such as pensions and/or global wealth and assets?

 

This particular visa agent mentioned they have dealt with clients in Thailand. 

 

Of course you would need an officialized police record report for Thailand for both the initial D7 application in Thailand and also for initial process in Portugal. So two of them! There is a risk the latter one could expire in validity. I've seen that problem before for Ecuador. If applying in Thailand would you ALSO need a police report from your home country?

 

So overall even though I have some personal factors that reduce my interest in Portugal (housing costs and dislike of the language) I can see that for many people Portugal's D7 offer will be simply wonderful.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Jingthing

[sidjameson]

28 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

 

From my POV Cambodia is too "wild west" for my taste and I think it's still not advanced enough in health care. Of course their retirement visa process is indeed wonderfully easy and cheap compared to Thailand. 

 

As far as need for hot weather, well, I don't need it. I do hate very cold weather but my ideal is one of those "year long spring" climates such as in the Paisa region (Medellin but I've rejected that as too bubbly and high crime / Coffee axis cities (Armenia, Pereira, Manizales) / Bucaramanga areas of Colombia and the central colonial cities of Mexico such as  (especially) Queretaro, Guadalajara, and Guanajuato. 

 

 

A priority for me is never needing a car or bike. That makes cities like Porto and Lisbon with excellent public transportation attractive. 

 

Another downside is psychological. It's a little embarrassing and irrational but I find the sound of European Portuguese to be unpleasant. 

 

 

 

 

I am in complete agreement with your comments. Therefore hope you don't mind saying where in Thailand you find more suitable? Especially living without car and bike.

[olfu]

Portugal sounds positive for guy from Florida but still my rule is rent before you buy. 8 hours flight is better than 30 hours to Thailand and 90 days visa looks good for summer.

My point is why retire in one country if you can retire in multiple places.

[Destiny1990]

@Jingthing

 

personally i like to see that you just pack up, finalize a new country and regularly update us from ur new surroundings.

[ignis]

maybe another option....  

 

www.globalcitizensolutions.com/cost-of-living-in-malta/

 

The official languages of Malta are Maltese and English

 

Myself been a few times, If I ever have to leave here. then it would be an option, along with Croatia, or maybe back to Portugal  [Still have Portuguese registration card + Tax i.d + Drivers Licence] 

 

For me being from the UK, the split form the EU may put a different light on things so would have to look again carefully

[Caldera]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, this is about adding another option to my Plan B as well as Thailand doesn't offer residency security for retirees. 

 

Very true, unfortunately. There's no realistic path to progress to anything beyond 1-year extensions whose conditions could change anytime. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Caldera

[Jingthing]

5 hours ago, olfu said:

Portugal sounds positive for guy from Florida but still my rule is rent before you buy. 8 hours flight is better than 30 hours to Thailand and 90 days visa looks good for summer.

My point is why retire in one country if you can retire in multiple places.

That works for some people but there are some serious downsides.

 

You live out of a suitcase.

 

It's ultimately more expensive to get shorter term rentals or if you're wealthy buying multiple homes. 

 

Might be more of a younger person thing.

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, sidjameson said:

I am in complete agreement with your comments. Therefore hope you don't mind saying where in Thailand you find more suitable? Especially living without car and bike.

Pattaya is great without a car or bike.

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, ignis said:

maybe another option....  

 

www.globalcitizensolutions.com/cost-of-living-in-malta/

 

The official languages of Malta are Maltese and English

 

Myself been a few times, If I ever have to leave here. then it would be an option, along with Croatia, or maybe back to Portugal  [Still have Portuguese registration card + Tax i.d + Drivers Licence] 

 

For me being from the UK, the split form the EU may put a different light on things so would have to look again carefully

Yes, Croatia is starting to get trendy. Not as much as Portugal though.

Malta has a very solid expat program.

 

Last time I checked I wasn't eligible for either Malta or Croatia.

 

I was surprised to learn that I could probably squeeze into Portugal if I wanted. Previously I determined I was ineligible.

 

On my point before about preferring Lisbon or Porto because of the excitement and great public transportation I wonder if there are other less big less exciting less expensive places there that would still suit me.

 

If anyone has any specific ideas there please post.

[Jeffr2]

44 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, Croatia is starting to get trendy. Not as much as Portugal though.

Malta has a very solid expat program.

 

Last time I checked I wasn't eligible for either Malta or Croatia.

 

I was surprised to learn that I could probably squeeze into Portugal if I wanted. Previously I determined I was ineligible.

 

On my point before about preferring Lisbon or Porto because of the excitement and great public transportation I wonder if there are other less big less exciting less expensive places there that would still suit me.

 

If anyone has any specific ideas there please post.

I have some friends who had to leave Malta because of changes to their visa policy.  Something about a huge increase in the amount of money needed.  They loved it there and hated to leave. 

[Tagged]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Pattaya is great without a car or bike.

I hope this covid thing is a new fresh start for Pattaya when it start rolling again. At least can hope, because it is a perfect spot with many uppertunities and short way to airport as well. 

 

Some few  things to do, clean up the drain systems, get proper waste handling, clean up the beaches and the worst bar districts and gogos.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Tagged

[Tarteso]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Yes, Croatia is starting to get trendy. Not as much as Portugal though.

Malta has a very solid expat program.

 

Last time I checked I wasn't eligible for either Malta or Croatia.

 

I was surprised to learn that I could probably squeeze into Portugal if I wanted. Previously I determined I was ineligible.

 

On my point before about preferring Lisbon or Porto because of the excitement and great public transportation I wonder if there are other less big less exciting less expensive places there that would still suit me.

 

If anyone has any specific ideas there please post.

What about Spain? Malaga? Cadiz?Almería? They have the one of the best weather in Europe, cold at winter, spring and fabulous summer. 

 

Also have a plan B...I own a house in Cadiz, where in the future I have the plan to finish my days when the Health will do the face. By now, have house in Thailand, farm and family.

[tifino]

anyway if one does the jump to Portugal, I'd personally keep well away from Lisbon... too much person on person crimes... and reminds me too much of Marseille(FR) & Barcelona(SPN) -both best seen out of the rearview mirror on the way out...   

Go for Porto though ???? , hands down!! This city mirrors a lot of the cultural/historic/pleasant feeling one gets in Prague (Praha) 

[Tagged]

Just now, Tarteso said:

What about Spain? Malaga? Cadiz?Almería? They have the one of the best weather in Europe, cold at winter, spring and fabulous summer. 

 

Also have a plan B...I own a house in Cadiz, where in the future I have the plan to finish my days when the Health will do the face. By now, have house in Thailand, farm and family.

South Spain or from Costa del sol the summer being to hot. If you think Thailand is hot, then just experience spain in July and August, and to cold from Costa del sol and North in the winther. My family have house there since 1985, so I know the area very well, and seen how it have developed since then. House and land getting rediculous expensive, but food and general living costs not to bad still. I would rather choose the west coast of Portugal instead and deal with the cold there, than the hot summers in Spain. 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, tifino said:

anyway if one does the jump to Portugal, I'd personally keep well away from Lisbon... too much person on person crimes... and reminds me too much of Marseille(FR) & Barcelona(SPN) -both best seen out of the rearview mirror on the way out...   

Go for Porto though ???? , hands down!! This city mirrors a lot of the cultural/historic/pleasant feeling one gets in Prague (Praha) 

Yes at this point Porto is the most interesting to me although I'm sure I couldn't afford the central area. Perhaps worth at least an exploratory trip post pandemic if nothing else just for enjoyment. For Lisbon I was thinking more like the outskirts or further as long as there are convenient transport links.

[Tarteso]

30 minutes ago, Tagged said:

South Spain or from Costa del sol the summer being to hot. If you think Thailand is hot, then just experience spain in July and August, and to cold from Costa del sol and North in the winther. My family have house there since 1985, so I know the area very well, and seen how it have developed since then. House and land getting rediculous expensive, but food and general living costs not to bad still. I would rather choose the west coast of Portugal instead and deal with the cold there, than the hot summers in Spain. 

That’s true..Big difference between the climate of  the Atlantic coast and mediterranean sea. And different the humid heat of Thailand and the dry heat of the Mediterranean.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Tarteso

[Jingthing]

Maybe too obvious to mention  but when  you move to a new country or even your home country or Thailand if you already live here, what you're really doing is moving to a specific place in that country. 

[Jingthing]

Definitely a lot of variety in such a small country:

 

[Gabriel1]

19 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That post contains a lot to chew on which explains my delay in responding.

Obviously each of us has our own situations, priorities, needs, likes and dislikes, etc.

 

From my POV Cambodia is too "wild west" for my taste and I think it's still not advanced enough in health care. Of course their retirement visa process is indeed wonderfully easy and cheap compared to Thailand. 

 

As far as need for hot weather, well, I don't need it. I do hate very cold weather but my ideal is one of those "year long spring" climates such as in the Paisa region (Medellin but I've rejected that as too bubbly and high crime / Coffee axis cities (Armenia, Pereira, Manizales) / Bucaramanga areas of Colombia and the central colonial cities of Mexico such as  (especially) Queretaro, Guadalajara, and Guanajuato. 

 

I understand that's not exactly what Portugal offers especially going north. But it's a matter of level and I think I could tolerate some cold for some months.

 

A priority for me is never needing a car or bike. That makes cities like Porto and Lisbon with excellent public transportation attractive. 

 

As far as Panama, no I haven't been there (but have been to Costa Rica) and based on my research I've rejected it. Yes the visa is doable and the welcome is real, but where I would really want to live there is Panama City and that isn't cheap enough for me. 

 

So the obvious other option is expat ghetto Boquette which I guess I could do but don't particularly want to. 

 

My impression is that the food isn't great either. (For me Costa Rica has the most boring food I've ever eaten.) 

 

So in Latin America, Colombia and Mexico remain the only options on my Plan B list. 

 

As far as Portugal I really do see the strong pros but there are also strong cons for me.

 

The strongest con may be that even though I think I could qualify financially for the D7 visa, it would be a lot more expensive to live a decent life than the basic requirements. Particularly for housing. So that means some pretty serious compromises. Like maybe needing to move into marginally safe, far out neighborhoods, moving to small boring cities far out of Lisbon, moving into tiny and/or crappy apartments etc.

 

Portugal has become very popular for expats. That means real estate cost bubbles in expat popular areas. 

 

Compare that to the option of moving into a largish, modern, luxury condo with a great view in a central safe top rated neighborhood in a city like Manizales Colombia (often compared to San Francisco) for approximately 450 USD a month and something not as fabulous but still very decent for 250 USD. 

 

Bang for the buck is a big draw to moving abroad. If I'm going to have to live rough it might be smarter just to repatriate to the U.S. 

 

I could get around that by digging more deeply into my retirement funds but that would be risky.

 

Another downside is psychological. It's a little embarrassing and irrational but I find the sound of European Portuguese to be unpleasant. I feel the same way about Vietnamese. I remember getting on the plane going home from my long trip to Portugal and being relieved that I wouldn't have to hear it anymore. I much prefer Spanish (preferably Latin American Spanish) or Brazilian Portuguese (although I have no interest in moving to Brazil). 

 

Perhaps that could be addressed with hypnosis or something, ha ha, but why force it. Also after five years, to go for permanent residence or citizenship you do need to speak at least basic Portuguese.

 

I looked into some of the complicating issues I mentioned in my O.P. and did conclude that they were probably all addressable with the use of a presumably expensive agent.

 

This video in particular was most helpful.

 

To mention some of them:

 

Bank account in Portugal? Can be opened through agent. Or you could open on a trip of course.

 

Money in Portugal which is now generally needed for the initial D7 application outside. Obviously you can wire that in once you have the account.

 

Amount initially needed? Approximately 10,000 USD.

 

There is controversy about the exact income requirements. This video says 1000 Euro per month. In reality the law says considerably less. But each embassy/consulate has their own criteria and they have discretion to decide if you are or aren't economically viable, so 1000 Euro would be on the safe side. That's the main reason for rejection. Under funded.

 

According to this video it is mentioned that ASSETS can also be considered. I'm a little skeptical about that. Have not seen the law on that. 

 

Need to show an address? No problem through an agent. They can provide a welcome letter to a specific address. Sorted. 

 

Health insurance? Generally you can buy via the agent the initial four months policy through the bank of your account.

 

Apparently (and this was very surprising, needs confirmation) after the initial residency process in Portugal you can join the very decent national health care program. I assume there is some cost but that sounds almost too good to be true especially for older people with preexisting conditions. (Colombia has a similar offer.)

 

On the taxation thing, OK so it isn't tax free for 10 years, but would Portugal go after foreign sourced income such as pensions and/or global wealth and assets?

 

This particular visa agent mentioned they have dealt with clients in Thailand. 

 

Of course you would need an officialized police record report for Thailand for both the initial D7 application in Thailand and also for initial process in Portugal. So two of them! There is a risk the latter one could expire in validity. I've seen that problem before for Ecuador. If applying in Thailand would you ALSO need a police report from your home country?

 

So overall even though I have some personal factors that reduce my interest in Portugal (housing costs and dislike of the language) I can see that for many people Portugal's D7 offer will be simply wonderful.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the comprehensive response.  Much appreciated.  Watched the video and it was pretty good.  I have seen that source before, and they do a pretty good job.  I liked you comments of Columbia, and was surprised by the cities you mentioned.  I had never heard of them.  Will dig deeper on them.  Everyone seem to be pushing Medellin. but for me air pollution not acceptable. I will share with you that when researching Portugal and the number required to qualify, answers are all over the map.  The $10K bank deposit the highest I heard. When I dug deeper into that I found a women that helps people on these matters.  Her fee are really good. As for the bank account she would arrange that process for me by using a lawyer who would do the required paperwork, and use a bank manager she has a relationship with, at one of the major banks. Some reasonable fees and deal done remotely.  She comes highly recommended from the Americans & friends in Pt website.  Portugal is a little like Thailand in that many things are fluid depending on who is doing the thinking.  Also on a budget for Lisbon, I found a video, from a women I follow re Portugal, which is about her budget in Lisbon.  Basically covers what one needs to know in this time frame. On Cambodia as the wild west, I can see that.  However, the game is changing Sihanoukville the city of the sea is not finishing it's makeover funded and built by the Chinese.  It is now more a luxury destination with numerous casinos.  Nothing I know of in thailand that is at this level.  Also, Siem Reap is in the process of building or renovating 38 road.  The work is 'A" grade work.  I am amazed at the logistic ability that is being executed  for this job. Would never have thought Cambodians could work at this level.  I mountain bike on the construction sites daily and defintely have fun ducking heavy equipment at work along with massive tucks. The videos on the expected final outcome turn Siem Reap into a 'A' grade destination.  Expected project completion is end 2021.  I lived in thailand for 7 years and never saw a thai city designed to this level.  If all turn out well Siem Reap will be more like a luxury USA city, with proper on street parking,  foot paths, bicycle paths and the riverfront area vitalized to be a recreation area. Add those improvements to pub street and the massive array of good restaurants and bars and local menu restaurant and you have winning tourist draw.  To me Siem Reap has been a one pony show.  Who knows, we may to rethink leaving.  Panama and central america thoughts.  Costa Rica has never been on my radar.  I have always heard it was over priced.  Now I am hearing people who are leaving and moving to Panama claim the country is not properly structured as an economy and work visas are hard to get etc.  On the Contrary, Panama is a solid economy and well managed.  The infrastructure, according to expats are excellent for the most parts and are continuously being expanded.  Health care is raved about by expats. A new section of the international airport has been opened and Panama is the flight hub for all south America and even has more non stop flights than any country in the region including Mexico city.  Also the world's main undersea internet cables connect in Panama and passes through the canal.  This is a major reason that Panama is the main corporate headquarter location for all south america. Data, data, data drives global businesses.  In addition, On top of that, Panama has the main natural gas storage facility and distribution point for that part of the world.  Add to that special residency packages of discounts for women over 55 and men over 60. Significant discount on air tickets, restaurant meals, medical bills,  hotel rooms etc. Add to that a economy that grew 5% in 2020, and no taxes on any income from outside the country.  On food I can't comment from personal experience, but videos list the restaurant scene, bar scene, mall scene and cultural scene in PC as top notch.  Also, you are correct in that some of PC is very expensive, but there are the more outlying neighborhoods that are significantly less. By the way Panama City is the only city on the planet that include a rainforest within it boundaries. The negatives for me in the city are the lack of functional foot paths, and in parts like all cities I have heard it can be gritty.  I lived in Bangkok and loved it.  Based on my key metrics for making a decision the bright lights of Portugal begin to dim when I sober up from the Portugal allure and look at the financials.  Portugal by comparison is operating under austerity order by the EU.  That is a major drawback, and has strongly impacted the services and lives of the citizens there..  Compare 23%VAT in Portugal to 7% in Panama.  Also, the government issues you a tax number and card which is used to record all you purchases. The direct tracking of my expenses bothers me.  We have been re-looking at Portugal and not doubt it glitters, but the economics of living there for me are just hard to justify.  With the tax money saved each year in Panama I can travel to europe, and when the weather get uncomfortable fly back to Panama. Also, in Panama I can chose the exact weather I  want to live with.   I must say Portugal is like a beautiful women and the allure is hard to resist,  but when I look at the economics of living there, Portugal just does not pass the test.  Add to that, in Portugal one can have difficulties with the government offices, and I find that just too exasperating.  With all of that said, i have always been a sucker for a beautiful women, so don't count Portugal out yet.  Keep me up to date on how your process is going.  I can tell you dive deep and have the intelligence to make an optimum decision.  Sorry, maybe to long, but it is good to discuss this stuff with an intelligent human being.