Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[yankee99]

10 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

You are a Thai citizen and transfer to an overseas account that is in your own name? If I understand this correctly, that would be great. What do you state as the purpose of transfer?

yes thai and both accounts are in my name 

[onthemoon]

4 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

normally travel expenses 

Noted, thanks.

[onthemoon]

3 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

yes thai and both accounts are in my name 

Thank you. What is say is good news.

[XGM]

21 hours ago, GarryP said:

I was considering opening an Interactive Brokers account, but reading these posts, it makes me wonder whether I will be able to transfer money to an IB account from my Thai bank accounts. All my funds are located in Thailand and I don't have any overseas bank accounts. I did not realize that transferring money overseas as a Thai citizen would be an issue.  

IB have recently added a "Transfer from Wise Balance" option to fund accounts (last option in the link below).

https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/support/fund-my-account.php

[Marcati]

On 8/16/2023 at 6:09 PM, GarryP said:

I was considering opening an Interactive Brokers account, but reading these posts, it makes me wonder whether I will be able to transfer money to an IB account from my Thai bank accounts. All my funds are located in Thailand and I don't have any overseas bank accounts. I did not realize that transferring money overseas as a Thai citizen would be an issue.  

My wife has an IB account and transfers money from SCB to it all the time. You have to fill out the BOT authorization once per year with a total estimated amount of how much you will send and declare the reason is for investment. The bank will help with the form processing and you keep the approved letter from BOT so the next time you go it takes all of 5 min. Money arrives in her account in less than 2 hrs

[Arkady]

Just back from buying a plot of land in my own name upcountry. The obligatory interview with the head of registrations, who always sits at the back of the room, went like this.

 

"How long have you had Thai nationality?"

 

"Do you have a copy of your naturalization certificate?"

 

"What is your original nationality?"

 

"Do you have two nationalities?"

 

"That's good. You renounced your former nationality in line with the Act." (No enunciation documents requested).

 

I can only assume that this line of questioning was based on a belief that Thais with dual nationality are not really Thai and should be treated as foreigners by the Land Department. I wonder if she asks look krung the same questions and what she would say if someone said their original nationality was Kiwi which is impossible to renounce.  I doubt this line of questioning has been mandated by the Land Dept or Interior Ministry but it could be a new instruction for all I know. We all know people like district officers are keen on inventing their own silly rules, as they don't have enough real work to do or are unwilling to do it.  Also I once had a problem in a land office in another province, where my original naturalization certificate was demanded, even though I presented a copy, and was asked to sign a silly essay certifying that I really had Thai nationality which had not yet been revoked.  I have bought about 20 different plots since becoming Thai.  My experience has been that in most cases they ask for a copy of the naturalization certificate but don't ask any questions about it. In one or two cases, it was not requested but in one of those they also didn't bother with the obligatory interview with the head of registrations because the seller had good connections there.

.

 

[Arkady]

I am currently trying to get an import cleared through customs by UPS.  In order to register with the paperless customs to import an item of more than B40k value, the UPS girl told me to submit a copy of my passport.

 

"But I have an ID card, of which I have already sent you a copy because I am a Thai citizen."

 

"Yes, but in the case of someone who is not born Thai, Customs require a copy of their passport of original nationality."

 

"I think you will find that is not correct.  Anyway I don't have a foreign passport to give you."

 

Another example of the way many Thais do not regard as Thai at all. I wonder how Thais or other foreigners living in farang countries as naturalized citizens would react to such idiotic requests.

 

 

[onthemoon]

45 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Just back from buying a plot of land in my own name upcountry. The obligatory interview with the head of registrations, who always sits at the back of the room, went like this.

 

"How long have you had Thai nationality?"

 

"Do you have a copy of your naturalization certificate?"

 

"What is your original nationality?"

 

"Do you have two nationalities?"

 

"That's good. You renounced your former nationality in line with the Act." (No enunciation documents requested).

 

I can only assume that this line of questioning was based on a belief that Thais with dual nationality are not really Thai and should be treated as foreigners by the Land Department. I wonder if she asks look krung the same questions and what she would say if someone said their original nationality was Kiwi which is impossible to renounce.  I doubt this line of questioning has been mandated by the Land Dept or Interior Ministry but it could be a new instruction for all I know. We all know people like district officers are keen on inventing their own silly rules, as they don't have enough real work to do or are unwilling to do it.  Also I once had a problem in a land office in another province, where my original naturalization certificate was demanded, even though I presented a copy, and was asked to sign a silly essay certifying that I really had Thai nationality which had not yet been revoked.  I have bought about 20 different plots since becoming Thai.  My experience has been that in most cases they ask for a copy of the naturalization certificate but don't ask any questions about it. In one or two cases, it was not requested but in one of those they also didn't bother with the obligatory interview with the head of registrations because the seller had good connections there.

.

 

Was that a mandatory interview, or were they just curious? I mean, "how long have you had Thai nationality" - what difference does it make?

[onthemoon]

38 minutes ago, Arkady said:

I am currently trying to get an import cleared through customs by UPS.  In order to register with the paperless customs to import an item of more than B40k value, the UPS girl told me to submit a copy of my passport.

 

"But I have an ID card, of which I have already sent you a copy because I am a Thai citizen."

 

"Yes, but in the case of someone who is not born Thai, Customs require a copy of their passport of original nationality."

 

"I think you will find that is not correct.  Anyway I don't have a foreign passport to give you."

 

Another example of the way many Thais do not regard as Thai at all. I wonder how Thais or other foreigners living in farang countries as naturalized citizens would react to such idiotic requests.

 

 

I am not sure whether this request for your foreign passport despite your Thai ID card was from customs or rather an idea of the UPS staff. They should also have asked for your tabien baan, BTW.

[DrJoy]

46 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Just back from buying a plot of land in my own name upcountry. The obligatory interview with the head of registrations, who always sits at the back of the room, went like this.

 

"How long have you had Thai nationality?"

 

"Do you have a copy of your naturalization certificate?"

 

"What is your original nationality?"

 

"Do you have two nationalities?"

 

"That's good. You renounced your former nationality in line with the Act." (No enunciation documents requested).

 

I can only assume that this line of questioning was based on a belief that Thais with dual nationality are not really Thai and should be treated as foreigners by the Land Department. I wonder if she asks look krung the same questions and what she would say if someone said their original nationality was Kiwi which is impossible to renounce.  I doubt this line of questioning has been mandated by the Land Dept or Interior Ministry but it could be a new instruction for all I know. We all know people like district officers are keen on inventing their own silly rules, as they don't have enough real work to do or are unwilling to do it.  Also I once had a problem in a land office in another province, where my original naturalization certificate was demanded, even though I presented a copy, and was asked to sign a silly essay certifying that I really had Thai nationality which had not yet been revoked.  I have bought about 20 different plots since becoming Thai.  My experience has been that in most cases they ask for a copy of the naturalization certificate but don't ask any questions about it. In one or two cases, it was not requested but in one of those they also didn't bother with the obligatory interview with the head of registrations because the seller had good connections there.

.

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation @Arkady

 

I hope this answers your concerns regarding Thai citizenship/naturalization certificate - @samran

@rsskga and @kiwiaussie    

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, onthemoon said:

I am not sure whether this request for your foreign passport despite your Thai ID card was from customs or rather an idea of the UPS staff. They should also have asked for your tabien baan, BTW.

This was clearly a naive request from the UPS staffer. Customs always accept my ID card without question and I have cleared quite a bit of stuff from customs since becoming Thai.

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, onthemoon said:

Was that a mandatory interview, or were they just curious? I mean, "how long have you had Thai nationality" - what difference does it make?

I think she just the questions about how long I had had Thai nationality and former nationality to lead up to her key question about dual nationality. I can't say what she would have done, if I had given the wrong answer, but it is possible she would have told me to put the land in Mrs Arkady's name instead, rather than make the seller leave with nothing. She knew Mrs A was there because she had signed the spousal consent. Another head of registrations in another province, who objected to me not having my original naturalisation certificate tried to force me to put the land in Mrs A's name which really peed me off and caused a bit of tension between me and the missus.  It's not the job of land offices to start rows between couples about whose name conjugal assets are registered under.  I emphasise that these are all land offices serving rural communities upcountry and most have probably never seen a farang with Thai nationality before.

 

Land Department regulations require that the head of registrations interviews the buyer and seller together before finalising the transfer. The purpose of this to try to make sure that the seller has been properly paid and that there is no scam to avoid payment. In our last case there was a slight issue because the seller hadn't brought enough cash to pay her share of the tax which was more than she expected. So I had to lend her the money which was nearly 100k. Because of this I hadn't handed over the cashier cheque yet as we all agreed to go to the bank together afterwards and let her cash the cheque and repay me the temporary loan which we did. The head raised her eyebrows at this and wrote a two line note about it on the sales and purchase contract that is lodged at the Land Department, obviously so there would be a record, if I reneged and ran off without paying.

 

The interview is quite important for transactions that are sales with the right of redemption (khai faak) as the sellers very often don't understand how that works and frequently get conned by the buyers. Unfortunately, despite the Land Department's best efforts to mitigate things there are a huge number of scams that result in poor rural folk selling their inherited land without being paid in full.  A very common one doing the rounds is for buyers, usually from somewhere else to offer to pay a big deposit but they need the deed transferred to their name on payment of the deposit, so that they can raise financing to pay the balance because they need to pledge the deed to borrow the money.  A sale and purchase agreement is entered into showing that there is an outstanding payment for the balance but the balance is never paid leaving the poor farmer to file a case in court but the scamster will claim the seller reneged on conditions, if they try to follow up. The missus and I came across one of these scamsters who wasted 3 days of our time trying to set us up for a sting like this.  When we realised it was a scam, instead or remonstrating with him, we continued playing along and then just stood him up and switched off the phones.   But many poor farmers are taken in. 

 

Apologies for the digression but buying land and dealing with land offices is something that quite a few of us do when we get Thai nationality and there is very little knowledge amongst farangs about how it works.

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, DrJoy said:

Thanks for the detailed explanation @Arkady

 

I hope this answers your concerns regarding Thai citizenship/naturalization certificate - @samran

@rsskga and @kiwiaussie    

It depends on what you do after getting Thai nationality but I have had to produce my naturalization certificate on multiple occasions and have been asked for the original several times.

[onthemoon]

9 hours ago, Arkady said:

I emphasise that these are all land offices serving rural communities upcountry and most have probably never seen a farang with Thai nationality before.

I think this was the main reason.

 

Thank you also for your elaborate explanations of scams. This will be useful for some of us.

[onthemoon]

9 hours ago, Arkady said:

It depends on what you do after getting Thai nationality but I have had to produce my naturalization certificate on multiple occasions and have been asked for the original several times.

Very interesting, thanks. Shouldn't be necessary - they are saying that the Thai ID is a fake, or that the office that issued the ID made a mistake, so they need to double-check their colleagues. 

[david143]

June 14 2023
I have bought property which is 226 talang wah in nakhon Pathom next to Saint Joseph brother's Bishops School.
I went to Land department with previous owner , to transfer Blue book +  update the chanot on my name.
we took the que , and wait, we both went to counter and i have only Thai ID + my Blue book i never hold or keep copies of RG or Certificate there was no interview, from both of us, only owner was asked to sign few documents, + 2 documents for me all digital documents from DOPA database, i am using Dopa Thai ID APP , once blue book updated on my name data is already showed up new Owner. 
This is the first Property i have ever bought on my name , since i got Thai ID, in 2021.
Once blue book in my hand + updated chanot from back , i straight went to PEA + Water Department + Tesaban for garbage collection fees and to change owner of new bills , with only a digital document from previous owner.  I have finished all tasks in just 1 day.

interviewing from land department it can be case by case or office to office, Nakhon pathom land department is not that big or crowed.
All new pinned Thais, buy property as much as you can, now is the time.

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, onthemoon said:

Very interesting, thanks. Shouldn't be necessary - they are saying that the Thai ID is a fake, or that the office that issued the ID made a mistake, so they need to double-check their colleagues. 

The one who asked for the original naturalization certificate claimed there are a lot of fake ID cards and she wanted to cover herself with more documentation in case it turned out to be fake or that my Thai nationality had already been revoked, which she obviously saw as an everyday thing.  She really annoyed me, particularly when telling me to put it in Mrs A's name instead and I lost my cool a bit, which I don't usually do with Thais, specially officials. I told her to take my ID card next door to the district office and check it their database, if the Land Office doesn't have card readers and she really thought it was fake. Since she had Chinese features I told her that nearly all the cases of fake IDs reported in the news are Chinese and I never seen a case of a farang and it would be extremely high risk and foolish for farangs to try to get away with fake ID cards, wouldn't it?  I suggested she should check the Thai nationality of anyone who comes in to buy land with Chinese features and she would have a much better chance of finding a fake ID card.  This made one of her staff with very Isaan features lose control and start peeing with laughter.  The boss lost face, went red and turned silent.  She was probably not used to having anyone arguing back at her in the office. When it was all done, she turned all nice, probably feeling she had overstepped the mark, and came over to try to sell Mrs A some low quality cosmetics she was selling in a moonlighting job and they did the add LINE thing.

 

But now I look at it like Thais who change their name, e.g. Mrs A's brother, and have to lug around copies of their name change certificate to government offices for the rest of their lives.  I come armed with a copy of the certificate along with my ID card and TB.

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, david143 said:

June 14 2023
I have bought property which is 226 talang wah in nakhon Pathom next to Saint Joseph brother's Bishops School.
I went to Land department with previous owner , to transfer Blue book +  update the chanot on my name.
we took the que , and wait, we both went to counter and i have only Thai ID + my Blue book i never hold or keep copies of RG or Certificate there was no interview, from both of us, only owner was asked to sign few documents, + 2 documents for me all digital documents from DOPA database, i am using Dopa Thai ID APP , once blue book updated on my name data is already showed up new Owner. 
This is the first Property i have ever bought on my name , since i got Thai ID, in 2021.
Once blue book in my hand + updated chanot from back , i straight went to PEA + Water Department + Tesaban for garbage collection fees and to change owner of new bills , with only a digital document from previous owner.  I have finished all tasks in just 1 day.

interviewing from land department it can be case by case or office to office, Nakhon pathom land department is not that big or crowed.
All new pinned Thais, buy property as much as you can, now is the time.

I was told by one of the registration heads that the interview is a Land Dept requirement and it makes sense to me.  I have only done one transaction in Bkk and had the interview and was asked for a copy of naturalization certificate. But I can imagine that many land offices in Bkk and surrounding provinces dispense with these formalities. The interview is not a big deal anyway and can be funny.  Once in Isaan I was asked what I planned to do with 45 rai and I answered "liang ngua" (raise cows in Lao) to get some laughs.

 

Another thing they can ask about is selling prices that look below market price but just above appraisal value to avoid tax. The seller, who was a well known and astute local contractor, was asked if he really wanted to sell at way below the market price to a farang. Try to keep a straight face. 555.4

 

Re blue book.  All my dealings with blue books have taken place at the district office.  I didn't know the Land Dept had anything to do with them.

[onthemoon]

3 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Re blue book.  All my dealings with blue books have taken place at the district office.  I didn't know the Land Dept had anything to do with them.

For ID, we often need both the ID card and the tabien baan from Thai customers, for example at customs. That's why I thought the land department might ask for it too.

[GarryP]

When I bought land in Kalasin, the officer at Somdej Land Department Office was a bit unsure when I presented my ID card, so she asked me to check with her boss. The boss just said to the effect that he has a Thai ID card so he is Thai. I don't recall ever having to present my naturalization certificate and never bother taking a copy with me when doing anything official. Yesterday, when opening a bank account at SCB in Kalasin, I just presented my ID card. There was a lot of faffing about though because their system did not seem to accommodate those with middle names, but finally got it sorted. 

 

Have any others encountered middle name issues? I know some of you have many more than one middle name. I can't be arsed changing my name though as that would open a whole new can of worms.  

[khongaeng]

3 hours ago, GarryP said:

When I bought land in Kalasin, the officer at Somdej Land Department Office was a bit unsure when I presented my ID card, so she asked me to check with her boss. The boss just said to the effect that he has a Thai ID card so he is Thai. I don't recall ever having to present my naturalization certificate and never bother taking a copy with me when doing anything official. Yesterday, when opening a bank account at SCB in Kalasin, I just presented my ID card. There was a lot of faffing about though because their system did not seem to accommodate those with middle names, but finally got it sorted. 

 

Have any others encountered middle name issues? I know some of you have many more than one middle name. I can't be arsed changing my name though as that would open a whole new can of worms.  

Yes,  I think Thai bank systems are becoming more flexible to middle names lately.  I opened a bank account at each of the 5 top banks in Thailand last year, and I think only one had an issue with my middle name.  It might have been SCB.  In that case, I think they just put my first and middle names together with a space as my first name.  All other Banks didn't have any issues with my middle name.  My middle name has never created a situation that I wasn't able to open an account or apply for something.  

[yankee99]

3 hours ago, GarryP said:

When I bought land in Kalasin, the officer at Somdej Land Department Office was a bit unsure when I presented my ID card, so she asked me to check with her boss. The boss just said to the effect that he has a Thai ID card so he is Thai. I don't recall ever having to present my naturalization certificate and never bother taking a copy with me when doing anything official. Yesterday, when opening a bank account at SCB in Kalasin, I just presented my ID card. There was a lot of faffing about though because their system did not seem to accommodate those with middle names, but finally got it sorted. 

 

Have any others encountered middle name issues? I know some of you have many more than one middle name. I can't be arsed changing my name though as that would open a whole new can of worms.  

I had my middle name removed from my id and tabien baan.

[Dogmatix]

5 hours ago, GarryP said:

When I bought land in Kalasin, the officer at Somdej Land Department Office was a bit unsure when I presented my ID card, so she asked me to check with her boss. The boss just said to the effect that he has a Thai ID card so he is Thai. I don't recall ever having to present my naturalization certificate and never bother taking a copy with me when doing anything official. Yesterday, when opening a bank account at SCB in Kalasin, I just presented my ID card. There was a lot of faffing about though because their system did not seem to accommodate those with middle names, but finally got it sorted. 

 

Have any others encountered middle name issues? I know some of you have many more than one middle name. I can't be arsed changing my name though as that would open a whole new can of worms.  

I have two middle names and when I got PR and my name in Thai was registered in the tabien baan system, Thailand had still not amended the law to permit middle names for Thais.  I found out later that because of this my two middle names were included to make a single first name which has continued after I got citizenship.  This actually seems easier than having an official middle name and anyway you can only have one middle name.  It is a bit burdensome but I have never had a problem with my three part first name, apart from complaints about its length. It also suits me to have exact match between my Thai and farang identities. My son has had a middle name from birth.

[Arkady]

Continuing the UPS saga I re-registered myself with the "paperless customs" at the 120 Years Old Building (its real name) in Klong Toey yesterday.  Of course UPS's story that Customs would demand a foreign passport for Thais who were not born Thai was utter nonsense. I registered using only my ID card as usual.  The UPS girl also had some other weird incorrect notions about clearing stuff from customs.  She speaks excellent English and seems very friendly but I think it is a case being so hard to find fluent English speaking staff that they take people whose only qualification is speaking English but they have nothing sensible to say in any language. Says a lot about Thailand's hopeless education system.

[onthemoon]

17 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

I have two middle names and when I got PR and my name in Thai was registered in the tabien baan system, Thailand had still not amended the law to permit middle names for Thais.  I found out later that because of this my two middle names were included to make a single first name which has continued after I got citizenship.  This actually seems easier than having an official middle name and anyway you can only have one middle name.  It is a bit burdensome but I have never had a problem with my three part first name, apart from complaints about its length. It also suits me to have exact match between my Thai and farang identities. My son has had a middle name from birth.

In my pink ID, it shows only my middle initial, not the full middle name. In the work permit, it shows the full middle name, and I also have the full middle name in the citizen ship application. Of course, it is only one long first name with a blank in the middle, but since the computer can handle that, I have no problem. Anyway, I wonder whether the middle initial in the pink ID will cause a problem when I apply for my first light blue ID card... I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. ????

[onthemoon]

17 hours ago, Arkady said:

Continuing the UPS saga I re-registered myself with the "paperless customs" at the 120 Years Old Building (its real name) in Klong Toey yesterday.  Of course UPS's story that Customs would demand a foreign passport for Thais who were not born Thai was utter nonsense. I registered using only my ID card as usual.  The UPS girl also had some other weird incorrect notions about clearing stuff from customs.  She speaks excellent English and seems very friendly but I think it is a case being so hard to find fluent English speaking staff that they take people whose only qualification is speaking English but they have nothing sensible to say in any language. Says a lot about Thailand's hopeless education system.

As expected. ???? I agree with your sentiment of the Thai language education system.

[XGM]

On 8/17/2023 at 8:40 AM, Arkady said:

"Yes, but in the case of someone who is not born Thai, Customs require a copy of their passport of original nationality."

I wonder what she'd say if you explained the original nationality was of course renounced "in line with the act"

[Mortis]

Hi everyone, anybody has any news about MOI interview meetings? Was there any recently and is there any happening these days? Thank you for sharing.

[DrJoy]

20 hours ago, Mortis said:

Hi everyone, anybody has any news about MOI interview meetings? Was there any recently and is there any happening these days? Thank you for sharing.

The last MOI interview was conducted in the month of March 2023, none since then.

 

I was told by a senior official in MOI that there will be no MOI interviews for Thai citizenship till a new government is formed.

[Neeranam]

On 8/19/2023 at 11:58 AM, GarryP said:

When I bought land in Kalasin, the officer at Somdej Land Department Office was a bit unsure when I presented my ID card, so she asked me to check with her boss. The boss just said to the effect that he has a Thai ID card so he is Thai. I don't recall ever having to present my naturalization certificate and never bother taking a copy with me when doing anything official. Yesterday, when opening a bank account at SCB in Kalasin, I just presented my ID card. There was a lot of faffing about though because their system did not seem to accommodate those with middle names, but finally got it sorted. 

 

Have any others encountered middle name issues? I know some of you have many more than one middle name. I can't be arsed changing my name though as that would open a whole new can of worms.  

I have 2 middle names and not experienced any problems, apart from people calling my the first 3 names without the surname, even when reading my ID card. 

 

I asked the bank for a loan once and they had to check with Bangkok. They came back saying I could apply but had to show my WP ????