Top Thai virologist assures Thais of effectiveness of vaccines in Thailand including against UK variant

[ParkerN]

Just now, placeholder said:

No, it's not a disaster against Covid 19. Quite the opposite. When it comes to stopping deaths and life threatening symptoms, it's virtually 100% potency. People should really take a little time and trouble to learn what efficacy and effectiveness mean when used by epidemiologists.

Really? Oh. Then perhaps you should write to all the newspapers who say different, especially as pertain to the UK variant. I suppose some folk will believe whatever suits them.

 

Is it my imagination or are there more polyannas about these days...?

Edited April 12, 2021 by ParkerN

[placeholder]

25 minutes ago, ParkerN said:

Really? Oh. Then perhaps you should write to all the newspapers who say different, especially as pertain to the UK variant. I suppose some folk will believe whatever suits them.

 

Is it my imagination or are there more polyannas about these days...?

No, the newspapers, at least the ones that engage with facts, aren't saying different.  If you read past the ledes, you will find that any complete reporting on the issue says that when it comes to preventing deaths and hospitalizations, Sinovac is very potent. But please, do share with us via links the newspapers that say differently.

[ParkerN]

Just now, placeholder said:

No, it's not a disaster against Covid 19. Quite the opposite. When it comes to stopping deaths and life threatening symptoms, it's virtually 100% potency. People should really take a little time and trouble to learn what efficacy and effectiveness mean when used by epidemiologists.

As opposed to the meaning when not used by epidemiologists? heh.

 

Whatever you say my friend, I hereby invoke my right to not believe a word of it. I'm out, the whole discussion left the truth and honesty rails a while beck.

 

 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, ParkerN said:

Whatever you say my friend, I hereby invoke my right to not believe a word of it. I'm out, the whole discussion left the truth and honesty rails a while beck.

 

 

Someone who refuses to engage with the facts or link to those he claims supports them, is also the self-appointed judge of truth and honesty.

 

[ParkerN]

Just now, placeholder said:

Someone who refuses to engage with the facts or link to those he claims supports them, is also the self-appointed judge of truth and honesty.

 

Sorry friend, what was it about the words "I'm out" that got you all confused?

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, ParkerN said:

As opposed to the meaning when not used by epidemiologists? heh.

This reminds of those multitidue of cases where a scientist pronounces deaths a statistically insignificant and certain parties leap on the word "insignificant" while ignoring it's specialized us.

The same goes for efficacy and effectiveness. Efficacy refers to how well the covid vaccine suppresses any symptoms in a control group vs a control group treated with a placebo. It says nothing about how well the vaccine protects against life threatenings symptoms and death. Effectiveness refers to how the vaccine performs in the general population in suppressing any symptoms. Once again, it doesnt' reference how potent it is at suppressing life threatending symptoms and deaths.

These are what those of in the reality based world call "facts".

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, ParkerN said:

Sorry friend, what was it about the words "I'm out" that got you all confused?

Well, if any one is confused, it must be you since you claimed to be "all out" but apparently were still present. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by placeholder

[Natai Beach]

6 hours ago, JimHuaHin said:

Unfortunately, Dr Yong cannot say that the Sinovac is less efficient than any other vaccine, because if he did he would be sued for defamation by a rich powerful Chinese-Thai family; where else in the world can you be sued for defamation for telling the truth?

Perhaps Julian Assange would know the answer to that?

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

You misunderstand the reports. It's true that the Sinovac's vaccine is much less effective against stopping any Covid-19 symptoms from arising. But when it comes to preventing death and life-threatening systems, its stopping power is virtually 100%.

Thats great news, do you have a study to cite on that?

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Thats great news, do you have a study to cite on that?

Just to start with here's an article from some people who should know:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/02/12/all-covid-vaccines-stop-death-severe-illness-column/6709455002/

Here's a very recent report from Brazil:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/04/chinese-covid-19-vaccine-maintains-protection-variant-plagued-brazil

https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/china-s-sinovac-jab-has-just-50-7-efficacy-in-key-brazilian-phase-3-study-121041200506_1.html

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2021-03-03/turkish-study-revises-down-sinovac-covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-to-835

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Just to start with here's an article from some people who should know:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/02/12/all-covid-vaccines-stop-death-severe-illness-column/6709455002/

Here's a very recent report from Brazil:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/04/chinese-covid-19-vaccine-maintains-protection-variant-plagued-brazil

https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/china-s-sinovac-jab-has-just-50-7-efficacy-in-key-brazilian-phase-3-study-121041200506_1.html

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2021-03-03/turkish-study-revises-down-sinovac-covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-to-835

I did look at all links, thanks. However since many of these articles we are getting new information with some of the other vaccines and what is known as "breakthrough" infections. These are being reported in the US now and are when a person has taken both shots and still contracts the virus and dies after falling seriously sick. We will continue to get more and more of these as its just the law of average. Currently there are at least several thousand fallen seriously sick. They are rare but show that its not 100% even with the best vaccines on the market.

 

My point being that with the Sinovac which has a suspected efficacy of anything from 50 - 57% then the likely hood of these breakthrough infections is much higher. 

 

On another note, not sure if you've read the study from Chile on Sinovac yet?

 

"Study by the University of Chile also found that one dose of the Sinovac jab was only 3 per cent effective against infection, underscoring the need to get fully vaccinated. Efficacy rises to 27.7 per cent within two weeks after the second jab, reaching 56.5 per cent a fortnight later"

 

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3128886/chile-covid-19-vaccination-drive-adds-sinovac-efficacy-data

 

 

 

 

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I did look at all links, thanks. However since many of these articles we are getting new information with some of the other vaccines and what is known as "breakthrough" infections. These are being reported in the US now and are when a person has taken both shots and still contracts the virus and dies after falling seriously sick. We will continue to get more and more of these as its just the law of average. Currently there are at least several thousand fallen seriously sick. They are rare but show that its not 100% even with the best vaccines on the market.

Several thousand out of how many millions of vaccinations?

3 Breakthrough Covid-19 Coronavirus Deaths Among 700,000+ Fully Vaccinated In Oregon

Consider how many people in Oregon have already gotten fully vaccinated: over 700,000. A quick calculation on your abacus will reveal that less than 0.03% of all fully vaccinated people there have had breakthrough Covid-19 coronavirus infections so far. Of the breakthrough infections, less than 2% ended up in death.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/04/11/3-breakthrough-covid-19-coronavirus-deaths-among-700000-fully-vaccinated-in-oregon/?sh=5e572fcd333f

So 3 out of every 10000  vaccinated persons in Oregon. And many of these infections were asymptomatic. And as for deaths, i think it's 6 out of 1 million. And given that about 700,000 or so people were vaccinated, that would be somewhere between 4 and 5 deaths. Virtually 100%?

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, placeholder said:

Several thousand out of how many millions of vaccinations?

3 Breakthrough Covid-19 Coronavirus Deaths Among 700,000+ Fully Vaccinated In Oregon

Consider how many people in Oregon have already gotten fully vaccinated: over 700,000. A quick calculation on your abacus will reveal that less than 0.03% of all fully vaccinated people there have had breakthrough Covid-19 coronavirus infections so far. Of the breakthrough infections, less than 2% ended up in death.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/04/11/3-breakthrough-covid-19-coronavirus-deaths-among-700000-fully-vaccinated-in-oregon/?sh=5e572fcd333f

So 3 out of every 10000  vaccinated persons in Oregon. And many of these infections were asymptomatic. And as for deaths, i think it's 6 out of 1 million. And given that about 700,000 or so people were vaccinated, that would be somewhere between 4 and 5 deaths. Virtually 100%?

 

I did say they were rare, but its more than you think or have from that link:

 

The precise number of these breakthrough cases is unknown, but figures released by states suggest it is at least several thousand. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which has had a team monitoring breakthrough infections since February, has partial data but has not made it public.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/09/do-people-get-covid-after-being-vaccinated/

 

However my point was that these are being reported in the vaccines with highest efficacy. So its logical to assume this number will be higher with Sinovac a much lower efficacy vaccine. 

 

 

 

 

[connda]

That is utter nonsense.  There isn't enough epidemiological data to make an assertion like that.  Before SARS-Cov-2 it took years of extensive testing for a vaccine to ever be licensed and brought to market. 
Now a celeb virologist waves his hand over the vaccines and assures their efficacy.  Sure.  Let's look back in five years time after the time-tested epidemiological data has been compiled and analysed and then make pronouncement like that.  Until then?  These are experimental vaccines in an extended phase three live field trial that can only be used under the Covid pandemic 'emergency decree.'   Everyone who takes it is a test subject.

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I did say they were rare, but its more than you think or have from that link:

 

The precise number of these breakthrough cases is unknown, but figures released by states suggest it is at least several thousand. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which has had a team monitoring breakthrough infections since February, has partial data but has not made it public.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/09/do-people-get-covid-after-being-vaccinated/

 

However my point was that these are being reported in the vaccines with highest efficacy. So its logical to assume this number will be higher with Sinovac a much lower efficacy vaccine. 

Higher possibly  but still very low by any reasonable standard if the data accumulated so far has any predictive value. And the fact is that lots of those infections are asymptomatic. And of course, if the choice comes down to taking Sinovac's vaccine or nothing, as may well be the case in Thailand, which is the better option? 

[connda]

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I did say they were rare, but its more than you think or have from that link:

 

The precise number of these breakthrough cases is unknown, but figures released by states suggest it is at least several thousand. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which has had a team monitoring breakthrough infections since February, has partial data but has not made it public.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/09/do-people-get-covid-after-being-vaccinated/

 

However my point was that these are being reported in the vaccines with highest efficacy. So its logical to assume this number will be higher with Sinovac a much lower efficacy vaccine. 

 

 

 

 

I understand enough about pathogenic priming in SARS vaccine animal studies that have been done in the past that I find "breakthrough infections" scary and the fact that the numbers aren't being released to the public even scarier.  The information is in the public domain and it is extremely easy to find the scientific literature on the subject. 

[placeholder]

15 minutes ago, connda said:

That is utter nonsense.  There isn't enough epidemiological data to make an assertion like that.  Before SARS-Cov-2 it took years of extensive testing for a vaccine to ever be licensed and brought to market. 
Now a celeb virologist waves his hand over the vaccines and assures their efficacy.  Sure.  Let's look back in five years time after the time-tested epidemiological data has been compiled and analysed and then make pronouncement like that.  Until then?  These are experimental vaccines in an extended phase three live field trial that can only be used under the Covid pandemic 'emergency decree.'   Everyone who takes it is a test subject.

Actually there's a huge amount of epidemiological data.  Far more data than would be the case had the usual protocols been followed. 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, connda said:

I understand enough about pathogenic priming in SARS vaccine animal studies that have been done in the past that I find "breakthrough infections" scary and the fact that the numbers aren't being released to the public even scarier.  The information is in the public domain and it is extremely easy to find the scientific literature on the subject. 

Odd. I just cited figures from Oregon about that very subject. Maybe you could go back and take a look at them. And then share with us what you find "scary" about them.

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Higher possibly  but still very low by any reasonable standard if the data accumulated so far has any predictive value. And the fact is that lots of those infections are asymptomatic. And of course, if the choice comes down to taking Sinovac's vaccine or nothing, as may well be the case in Thailand, which is the better option? 

The reason I responded to your post was because you made this claim when talking about Sinovac "its stopping power is virtually 100%".

 

I thinks its important to have the full information and data before making such claims about safety, its peoples health and they need the full facts.

 

My wife took the Sinovac last week in Phuket, so according the the Chile study she has 3% efficacy until she gets her next shot. Luckily I'm 61 so I have no need to make a choice, I will get the AZ when they get round to it in June or whenever.

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

The reason I responded to your post was because you made this claim when talking about Sinovac "its stopping power is virtually 100%".

 

I thinks its important to have the full information and data before making such claims about safety, its peoples health and they need the full facts.

 

My wife took the Sinovac last week in Phuket, so according the the Chile study she has 3% efficacy until she gets her next shot. Luckily I'm 61 so I have no need to make a choice, I will get the AZ when they get round to it in June or whenever.

All shots start with lower efficacy. I don't know why you cite that number. It's true it's very low but how significant is that? 

And as you note, I wrote virtually 100%. Even if Sinovac's vaccine was only a third as effective against mortalities it would mean 15 out of 10,000 or 3 out of 2000.. So I think virtually 100% was not an inapt phrase to invoke.

And why just cite the Chile study? 

Edited April 12, 2021 by placeholder

[Bkk Brian]

27 minutes ago, placeholder said:

All shots start with lower efficacy. I don't know why you keep on citing that number. It's true it's very low but how significant is that? 

And as you note, I wrote virtually 100%. Even if Sinovac's vaccine was only a third as effective against mortalities it would mean 15 out of 10,000 or 3 out of 2000.. So I think virtually 100% was not an inapt phrase to invoke.

Look at the Transport Minister who had his first shot of Sinovac and then contracted the virus, so yea its significant to know that, everybody should.

 

I cite the 3% efficacy again as both me and my daughter have nicknamed my wife "3 cent" LOL

 

On a more serious note its important for her and us to know that when visiting high risk areas that she cannot feel complacent.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Bkk Brian

[shdmn]

10 hours ago, brucegoniners said:

The vaccine from China has only 52% efficacy so that’s a lie.

The bottom line is it is still almost 100% effective at preventing serious illness and death.  

[Danderman123]

7 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Are they experimenting on human lab rats like the rest of the world?

Of course, if there were no clinical trials involving humans during the development phase, you would complain that the vaccines are untested.

[FarFlungFalang]

7 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Of course, if there were no clinical trials involving humans during the development phase, you would complain that the vaccines are untested.

Not me mate I've already had the virus so I won't be needed for lab rat duties I'm already in the herd.I'm just watching the lab rat show.What about you?Are you up for lab rat duties?

[Fex Bluse]

Every single headline with this "Top Thai Virologist" should read "Top Thai Virologist Repeats what he Read from Western and East Asian Experts" 

[Danderman123]

4 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Not me mate I've already had the virus so I won't be needed for lab rat duties I'm already in the herd.I'm just watching the lab rat show.What about you?Are you up for lab rat duties?

You are already a lab rat, just not for humans.

 

BTW, your immunity isn’t going to do you much good with the new variants.

[placeholder]

25 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

You are already a lab rat, just not for humans.

 

BTW, your immunity isn’t going to do you much good with the new variants.

That's not really know. What is known is that naturally acquired infections generally don't provide as much protection as do vaccinations.

[ftpjtm]

On 4/12/2021 at 12:29 PM, webfact said:

Dr Yong Poovorawan said that Sinovac or AstraZeneca being used in the kingdom were every bit as effective as vaccines used in rollouts going on in places like the US and Europe. 

 

 

You just lost any credibility you had, doc.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-11/chinese-official-says-local-vaccines-lacks-effectiveness/100061932

[Dogmatix]

There are only two vaccines in Thailand, Sinovac and Astra Zeneca.  A simple perusal of the AZ trial results shows that Dr Yong's claims that it's efficacy is as good as Pfizer and Moderna is false and Astra Zeneca would never make such a claim themselves.  As the Sinovac there is no credible data published on stage 3 trials, so his claim for that one is also unfounded. 

 

It is very sad that people in his position assume that their fellow Thais are all so dumb that they will believe any nonsense they spout, even if it can be disproved with a couple of minutes of googling.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Dogmatix said:

There are only two vaccines in Thailand, Sinovac and Astra Zeneca.  A simple perusal of the AZ trial results shows that Dr Yong's claims that it's efficacy is as good as Pfizer and Moderna is false and Astra Zeneca would never make such a claim themselves.  As the Sinovac there is no credible data published on stage 3 trials, so his claim for that one is also unfounded. 

 

It is very sad that people in his position assume that their fellow Thais are all so dumb that they will believe any nonsense they spout, even if it can be disproved with a couple of minutes of googling.

A lot of misinformation being spewed out, there's an article in the Nation just published that says Sinovac is approved by WHO. 

 

Then what more could we expect from Anutin

 

"He said the politicians cited foreign news reports to refute the efficacy of the AstraZeneca and Sinovac brands, even though both vaccines had been approved by the World Health Organisation."

 

https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30404847

 

WHO is in the process of assessing it along with many others but its certainly not approved