Interesting Reads (LONG) On Origins Of SARS-CoV-2 Virus

[Pattaya Spotter]

The following are two Medium articles by former New York Times reporters on the possible origins of the current pandemic. The jist is that suggestions early on, that were dismissed by the "mainstream" media, WTO, and many liberal politicians, that the virus escaped from a lab in China were too summarily dismissed, and that further investigation is necessary to find out the truth to prevent a reaccurance in the future ????

 

Origin of Covid — Following the Clues Did people or nature open Pandora’s box at Wuhan?

 

https://nicholaswade.medium.com/origin-of-covid-following-the-clues-6f03564c038

 

How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Lab Leak Theory 

 

https://donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-lab-leak-theory-f4f88446b04d

Edited May 26, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter

[Jeffr2]

Medium is known for putting up conspiracy theories.  And these two authors are a bit dodgy.  Especially kiddy fiddler McNeil.

 

Agreed that more research is needed into the origins of the virus, but a VAST majority of credible scientists (not writers) agree it came from nature.

[friendofthai]

If I were a saboteur with deadly virus in my bag, I would release it far away from my home country. A bio-lab somewhere in Russia or China is definitely the best place for it.

Edited May 26, 2021 by friendofthai

[Jeffr2]

36 minutes ago, friendofthai said:

If I were a saboteur with deadly virus in my bag, I would release it far away from my home country. A bio-lab somewhere in Russia or China is definitely the best place for it.

Ummm....the bio lab in question is in a huge city.  Wuhan.  Hardly far away from people's homes.

[tgw]

57 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Medium is known for putting up conspiracy theories.  And these two authors are a bit dodgy.  Especially kiddy fiddler McNeil.

 

Agreed that more research is needed into the origins of the virus, but a VAST majority of credible scientists (not writers) agree it came from nature.

 

well, no conspiracy theories there regarding the origin, as the lab leak, if that's indeed what happened,  would have been an accident, not a conspiracy.

 

Nicholas Wade certainly makes very good points, I would like his article to be fact-checked.

 

The same goes for the "VAST majority of credible scientists (not writers)" that "agree it came from nature."  How many of these credible scientists do actually have the skills and knowledge to agree to a hypothesis? that should be fact-checked too.

[Jeffr2]

19 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

well, no conspiracy theories there regarding the origin, as the lab leak, if that's indeed what happened,  would have been an accident, not a conspiracy.

 

Nicholas Wade certainly makes very good points, I would like his article to be fact-checked.

 

The same goes for the "VAST majority of credible scientists (not writers)" that "agree it came from nature."  How many of these credible scientists do actually have the skills and knowledge to agree to a hypothesis? that should be fact-checked too.

Right now, it's a conspiracy theory because there's no scientific evidence it came from a lab.  What scientists want to do is 100% prove the source.  Pangolin, Bat, etc.  That's not been determined.

 

Medium.com is known for putting up conspiracy theory articles. And these two are written by writers, not scientists.  Not the most credible, IMHO.

 

I don't understand your last point.  Sorry, but makes no sense.  The scientists I follow are all credible.  And are fact checked all the time.

[Caldera]

Who cares if it was a lab leak (accident) or if it just happened naturally. It's not like I can sue them if I get sick anyway.

 

What matters now is that it's out there and needs to be dealt with. All these conspiracy theories are a complete waste of time. 

[KhunBENQ]

Just today I saw a couple of articles in German language news about the return of the lab leak theory. None from the conspiracy corner.

They say three researchers from the lab fell ill from flu like symptoms almost simultaneously in November 2019 and had to be treated in hospital.

The articles also say the Chinese did NOT collaborate with the WHO inspectors in supplying data/records from the lab (this info seems mainly undisputed).

Source is named as "a US intelligence agency".
Of course a quick denial from the Chinese, total lies, researchers had seasonal flu.

Edited May 26, 2021 by KhunBENQ

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

Just today I saw a couple of articles in German language news about the return of the lab leak theory. None from the conspiracy corner.

They say three researchers from the lab fell ill from flu like symptoms almost simultaneously in November 2019 and had to be treated in hospital.

The articles also say the Chinese did NOT collaborate with the WHO inspectors in supplying data/records from the lab (this info seems mainly undisputed).

Source is named as "a US intelligence agency".
Of course a quick denial from the Chinese, total lies, researchers had seasonal flu.

Maybe these lab workers just go the flu?  Nobody knows.  And to suggest otherwise....

 

It's well known Trump ordered spies to try and tie the virus to the lab.  Didn't work.

 

A through investigation is desperately needed.  To stop the conspiracy theories, and allow scientists to understand how it jumped from animals to humans.  Like happened with SARS and MERS.  Similar viruses.

[Pattaya Spotter]

34 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

Just today I saw a couple of articles in German language news about the return of the lab leak theory. None from the conspiracy corner.

They say three researchers from the lab fell ill from flu like symptoms almost simultaneously in November 2019 and had to be treated in hospital.

The articles also say the Chinese did NOT collaborate with the WHO inspectors in supplying data/records from the lab (this info seems mainly undisputed).

Source is named as "a US intelligence agency".
Of course a quick denial from the Chinese, total lies, researchers had seasonal flu.

You can see also my post in this sub-forum that the head of the US Department of Health and Human Services is now calling for another independent investigation into the pandemic’s origins. The purpose of such an investigation is not to "blame" China for it (though some will do so in any event) but to know, as best as is possible, what animal is its natural host and how the virus jumped to humans (naturally or lab leak) so that the world can be better prevent future such occurrences.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter

[Pattaya Spotter]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

Medium is known for putting up conspiracy theories.  And these two authors are a bit dodgy.  Especially kiddy fiddler McNeil.

 

Responding to Jeffr2 remarks (as he's on ignore): Medium, to my understanding, is a self publishing platform where people can post their own writings, and the site itself doesn't vet or serve any editorial role on what is published. The "kiddy fiddler" remark is just plain wrong...he was let go by the NYT for remarks some considered insensitive and that were not even made in the context of his employment at the paper. (And in any case wouldn't have any bearing on anything he has to say on the subject of the pandemic.)

[cormanr7]

For a  -very brief- article on the Wuhan Lab see this article in Nature from 2017 which makes some interesting observations: https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487 . Note that this does not confirm that the SARS-CoV-2 escaped from this lab. but neither should it come as a great surprise if it was indeed the case.

[Pattaya Spotter]

12 minutes ago, cormanr7 said:

For a  -very brief- article on the Wuhan Lab see this article in Nature from 2017 which makes some interesting observations: https://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487 . Note that this does not confirm that the SARS-CoV-2 escaped from this lab. but neither should it come as a great surprise if it was indeed the case.

A very interesting read...I have seen reports stating that the US State Department also had concerns about bio-safety protocols at this lab after a tour of the facility shortly after it came on line. 

[friendofthai]

I enjoy watching interviews with different politicians about this on TV. All those "the virus came from nature", "don`t believe in conspiracy theories!" and... finally "Sorry, I have to rush to the daily Bioweapon Defense meeting".

[placeholder]

I don't think that what is being currently alleged qualifies as a conspiracy theory. If it did come from the lab in Wuhan, it would seem to have been due to human error.

[AndyFoxy]

News coming out that the Biden administration shut down a probe into the virus origin in January which was started under the Trump administration. Reason....lack of evidence.

[Pattaya Spotter]

For those who don't want to take 45 minutes reading the longer Nicholas Wade article, these are the key points from the conclusion:

 

Neither the natural emergence nor the lab escape hypothesis can yet be ruled out. There is still no direct evidence for either. So no definitive conclusion can be reached.

That said, the available evidence leans more strongly in one direction than the other. Readers will form their own opinion. But it seems to me that proponents of lab escape can explain all the available facts about SARS2 considerably more easily than can those who favor natural emergence.

It’s documented that researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology were doing gain-of-function experiments designed to make coronaviruses infect human cells and humanized mice. This is exactly the kind of experiment from which a SARS2-like virus could have emerged. The researchers were not vaccinated against the viruses under study, and they were working in the minimal safety conditions of a BSL2 laboratory. So escape of a virus would not be at all surprising. In all of China, the pandemic broke out on the doorstep of the Wuhan institute. The virus was already well adapted to humans, as expected for a virus grown in humanized mice. It possessed an unusual enhancement, a furin cleavage site, which is not possessed by any other known SARS-related beta-coronavirus, and this site included a double arginine codon also unknown among beta-coronaviruses. What more evidence could you want, aside from the presently unobtainable lab records documenting SARS2’s creation?

Proponents of natural emergence have a rather harder story to tell. The plausibility of their case rests on a single surmise, the expected parallel between the emergence of SARS2 and that of SARS1 and MERS. But none of the evidence expected in support of such a parallel history has yet emerged. No one has found the bat population that was the source of SARS2, if indeed it ever infected bats. No intermediate host has presented itself, despite an intensive search by Chinese authorities that included the testing of 80,000 animals. There is no evidence of the virus making multiple independent jumps from its intermediate host to people, as both the SARS1 and MERS viruses did. There is no evidence from hospital surveillance records of the epidemic gathering strength in the population as the virus evolved. There is no explanation of why a natural epidemic should break out in Wuhan and nowhere else. There is no good explanation of how the virus acquired its furin cleavage site, which no other SARS-related beta-coronavirus possesses, nor why the site is composed of human-preferred codons. The natural emergence theory battles a bristling array of implausibilities.

The records of the Wuhan Institute of Virology certainly hold much relevant information. But Chinese authorities seem unlikely to release them given the substantial chance that they incriminate the regime in the creation of the pandemic. Absent the efforts of some courageous Chinese whistle-blower, we may already have at hand just about all of the relevant information we are likely to get for a while.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter

[LongTimeLurker]

On 5/26/2021 at 12:41 PM, Jeffr2 said:

Ummm....the bio lab in question is in a huge city.  Wuhan.  Hardly far away from people's homes.

 

He said "far away from home COUNTRY"

 

Did you know that there were military personnel from a Western superpower present in Wuhan just a month before the virus outbreak?

 

But that's maybe just another conspiracy theory to be explored.

[xylophone]

On 5/26/2021 at 1:08 PM, Caldera said:

Who cares if it was a lab leak (accident) or if it just happened naturally. It's not like I can sue them if I get sick anyway.

 

What matters now is that it's out there and needs to be dealt with. All these conspiracy theories are a complete waste of time. 

It is known that US funds were directed to the Wuhan Lab in order to try and find out more about zoonotic viruses and similar, so I would suspect that it's quite possible other countries did likewise in order to understand more about something which could potentially devastate the planet. 

 

It could have been an unintentional leak, in which case, as you say, it's out there and needs to be dealt with, and conspiracy theories about the virus being intentionally let loose are a load of old codswallop.

 

United States top infectious disease expert Anthony Fauci told lawmakers on Tuesday that the Wuhan Institute of Virology received money from the National Institutes of Health amid rising concerns over coronavirus origins.

 

According to Fauci, $600,000 were earmarked for the institute in Wuhan over a period of five years to study zoonotic viruses and whether bat coronaviruses could jump onto human beings.

 

https://www.wionews.com/world/fauci-admits-wuhan-lab-received-modest-funds-from-us-amid-calls-for-probe-into-covid-origins-387497

[Pattaya Spotter]

14 hours ago, xylophone said:

It is known that US funds were directed to the Wuhan Lab in order to try and find out more about zoonotic viruses and similar, so I would suspect that it's quite possible other countries did likewise in order to understand more about something which could potentially devastate the planet. 

 

It could have been an unintentional leak, in which case, as you say, it's out there and needs to be dealt with, and conspiracy theories about the virus being intentionally let loose are a load of old codswallop.

 

United States top infectious disease expert Anthony Fauci told lawmakers on Tuesday that the Wuhan Institute of Virology received money from the National Institutes of Health amid rising concerns over coronavirus origins.

 

According to Fauci, $600,000 were earmarked for the institute in Wuhan over a period of five years to study zoonotic viruses and whether bat coronaviruses could jump onto human beings.

 

https://www.wionews.com/world/fauci-admits-wuhan-lab-received-modest-funds-from-us-amid-calls-for-probe-into-covid-origins-387497

I don't know any serious person who has accused the Chinese of intentionally releasing a "stepped-up" strain of coronavirus into the world...the pandemic started in China after all and would they release it in their own country? What people are surmising is it accidently infected a WIV lab worker, who then left the lab at the end of the day who then unknowingly spread it to others and off we go. It is known that the WIV labs where the "Bat Lady" was doing her research were Biohazard Safety Level 2 and BSL-3 labs - not top level BSL-4 labs ☣ (One scientist quoted in the articles states a BSL-2 lab is equivalent to the infection control standards of a dentist office...not nearly high enough to be working with potentially deadly plague viruses.)

 

And yes, it is public knowledge that the US NIS was funding "gain of function" research on coronaviruses at the WIV, despite Dr. Fauci's denials when questioned about it by Senator Rand Paul at a recent Congressional hearing. This research was done with the assistance of top level virologists in the US. There are questions about whether GOF research on viruses should be done under any circumstances, what government oversight and controls should be in place for such research, and if so, is it wise for the US government to "farm out" such research to labs in foreign countries and not US government or university laboratories.  

Edited May 28, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter

[LongTimeLurker]

7 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

And yes, it is public knowledge that the US NIS was funding "gain of function" research on coronaviruses at the WIV, despite Dr. Fauci's denials when questioned about it by Senator Rand Paul at a recent Congressional hearing. This research was done with the assistance of top level virologists in the US. There are questions about whether GOF research on viruses should be done under any circumstances, what government oversight and controls should be in place for such research, and if so, is it wise for the US government to "farm out" such research to labs in foreign countries and not US government or university laboratories. 

 

NIS or DARPA?

 

Surely research into biochemical weapons and WMDs would not be allowed on US soil?

[Pattaya Spotter]

30 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 

NIS or DARPA?

 

Surely research into biochemical weapons and WMDs would not be allowed on US soil?

The grant was to EcoHealth Alliance, a US based NGO who "farmed" it out to Dr. Shi and the WIV, for the study of coronaviruses was made by the US Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, a branch of the National Institutes of Health. The grant was to study the human infection potential of naturally occurring and genetically modified coronaviruses (supposedly to better predict and respond to a viral pandemic). It was not made to study or develop weaponized coronaviruses. 

 

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nih-cancels-funding-for-bat-coronavirus-research-project-67486

Edited May 28, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter

[candide]

19 minutes ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

The grant was to EcoHealth Alliance, a US based NGO who "farmed" it out to Dr. Shi and the WIV, for the study of coronaviruses was made by the US Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, a branch of the National Institutes of Health. The grant was to study the human infection potential of naturally occurring and genetically modified coronaviruses (supposedly to better predict and respond to a viral pandemic). It was not made to study or develop weaponized coronaviruses. 

 

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nih-cancels-funding-for-bat-coronavirus-research-project-67486

This is true. It is known because there have been scientific reports, etc..about it.  However, the available information suggests they were working in other directions than one which could have resulted in producing the current Covid-19 virus.

The lab leak is not excluded (nor proven either). If it happens, It's more likely from the "natural" viruses collected

[Pattaya Spotter]

49 minutes ago, candide said:

However, the available information suggests they were working in other directions than one which could have resulted in producing the current Covid-19 virus.

 

The grant application from EcoHealth to NIAID specifically said it was for the study of the transmission potential of naturally occurring and genetically modified corona viruses in invitro and invo human models (cell cultures and "humanized" mice).

 

 

[candide]

4 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

The grant was to EcoHealth Alliance, a US based NGO who "farmed" it out to Dr. Shi and the WIV, for the study of coronaviruses was made by the US Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, a branch of the National Institutes of Health. The grant was to study the human infection potential of naturally occurring and genetically modified coronaviruses (supposedly to better predict and respond to a viral pandemic). It was not made to study or develop weaponized coronaviruses. 

 

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nih-cancels-funding-for-bat-coronavirus-research-project-67486

 

2 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

 

The grant application from EcoHealth to NIAID specifically said it was for the study of the transmission potential of naturally occurring and genetically modified corona viruses in invitro and invo human models (cell cultures and "humanized" mice).

 

 

Of course they were analysing the coronaviruses collected. I was referring to the gain of function experiments you mentioned. As far as I remember (I may not remember well, but usually I do), the gain of function research was not targeted at the changes observed in Covid-19.

BTW, contrary to your post, your link doesn't mention "genetically modified" about the grant. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by candide

[Pattaya Spotter]

1 hour ago, candide said:

s far as I remember (I may not remember well, but usually I do), the gain of function research was not targeted at the changes observed in Covid-19.

What changes are you referring to? And so we're on the same page...it's a virus, specifically SARS-CoV-2 at issue, not a disease syndrome (COVID-19).

 

1 hour ago, candide said:

BTW, contrary to your post, your link doesn't mention "genetically modified" about the grant. 

Which link are you referring to? Most of my information throughout this thread comes from the two Medium articles from my op. There, the details of the EcoHealth grant proposal are discussed. The cite you may be referring to was just to show that the NIAID/NIH were the agencies that funded the grant for coronaviruses research.

[bunnydrops]

On 5/26/2021 at 12:04 PM, friendofthai said:

If I were a saboteur with deadly virus in my bag, I would release it far away from my home country. A bio-lab somewhere in Russia or China is definitely the best place for it.

Maybe not

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray

[Pattaya Spotter]

This Wired writer definitely has a point of view (he hates Donald Trump, Republicans, and anyone to the right of the late Fidel Castro), so take his overview of the "nature vs. lab leak" debate with a pinch of ???? He says to further investigate but seems to already have made up his mind that it was a virus jump from nature. He seems to put a lot of credibility in the early WHO investigation, which consisted of a 3 hour tour of the WIV,  and being shown what the Chinese authorities wanted to show the team of investigators to see; and the early statements of scientists who had a vested interest in the WIV's work.

 

The Covid-19 Lab Leak Theory Is a Tale of Weaponized Uncertainty

Scientists almost never say they’re sure, and it could take years to pin down the pandemic's origins. Until then: People are trying to scare you.

 

https://www.wired.com/story/covid-19-lab-leak-theory-weaponized-uncertainty/

[AndyFoxy]

The polybasic furin cleavage site insert tells us all we need to know.

[Pattaya Spotter]

32 minutes ago, AndyFoxy said:

The polybasic furin cleavage site insert tells us all we need to know.

Yes...curious the woke Wired writer doesn't mention this (too busy knocking "conspiracy theorists" and Republicans).

Edited May 29, 2021 by Pattaya Spotter