Volunteer Visa - WP Required?

[rulebythieves]

Hi everyone,

I have been planning to make the move to Thailand now for about a year or so. I keep finding conflicting information regarding my question. Do you need a work permit to do volunteer work in Thailand? I am aware that laws in Thailand change frequently. Would appreciate it if anyone could clear up any confusion for me. Thanks!

[ubonjoe]

A work permit is not required for volunteer work in most cases.

You will need a non-o visa issued for volunteer work.

[jackdd]

Any kind of work requires a work permit, volunteering work as well, so much for the theory.

In practice nobody seems to really care about it, but if you want to be 100% legal you should have one.

Any proper organization employing volunteers should also have no problems to get a work permit for you.

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Any kind of work requires a work permit, volunteering work as well, so much for the theory.

In practice nobody seems to really care about it, but if you want to be 100% legal you should have one.

Any proper organization employing volunteers should also have no problems to get a work permit for you.

The work permit rules were changed in 2018 and it mostly eliminated work permits for volunteer work.

I can a recall a big problem after that when Chiang Mai immigration was refusing extensions for volunteers due to them not having a work permit and the the Labor Ministry was not issuing them for volunteer work.

[asiaexpat]

One of the top Law Offices in Thailand states the following as to the 2018 work permit rules as it pertain to volunteer activities.

"Second, in order to be deemed “work” under the new definition, a foreigner must do it as an occupation to earn a wage. This is the good news for many foreigners. If any foreigner does any work not as an occupation for no wage (i.e. working as volunteer for the benefit of general public), the foreigner’s activity shall not be deemed the “work” under the Emergency Decree No. 2." Tilleke & Gibbins

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

The work permit rules were changed in 2018 and it mostly eliminated work permits for volunteer work.

I don't see any section which would have this effect, can you quote the relevant section which says something in this regard?

 

1 hour ago, asiaexpat said:

One of the top Law Offices in Thailand states the following as to the 2018 work permit rules as it pertain to volunteer activities.

"Second, in order to be deemed “work” under the new definition, a foreigner must do it as an occupation to earn a wage. This is the good news for many foreigners. If any foreigner does any work not as an occupation for no wage (i.e. working as volunteer for the benefit of general public), the foreigner’s activity shall not be deemed the “work” under the Emergency Decree No. 2." Tilleke & Gibbins

This is wrong, and if I look up your quote on Google it also doesn't look like Tilleke & Gibbins ever said this.

[asiaexpat]

Very easy to find the info and you are completely off track and wrong.

 

[jackdd]

8 minutes ago, asiaexpat said:

Very easy to find the info and you are completely off track and wrong.

What's shown on your screenshot is different from what the alleged quote in your previous post says.

In your screenshot I don't see anything which says that volunteer work would be exempt from a work permit.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, jackdd said:

What's shown on your screenshot is different from what the alleged quote in your previous post says.

In your screenshot I don't see anything which says that volunteer work would be exempt from a work permit.

A work permit is certainly not required for volunteer work now. There have been hundreds of extensions of stay issued without one.

The big change in 2018 was the definition of work.

Also the royal decree in 2018 is not the only thing needed to confirm they are not required. You would have to find the ministerial orders that were issued to define the requirements.

 

[jackdd]

13 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

There have been hundreds of extensions of stay issued without one.

A work permit isn't required to get an extension based on volunteering, so this is just unrelated.

 

16 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

This doesn't imply in any way that a work permit for volunteer work wouldn't be required. Teaching English to children at an orphanage, building houses for poor people, cleaning in a dog shelter... all professional work: Teacher, construction worker, janitor/maid, clearly work permit required under this royal decree.

 

17 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

You would have to find the ministerial orders that were issued to define the requirements.

Did you read them and they say that volunteering work is exempt, or how can you be so certain that a work permit isn't required?

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Did you read them and they say that volunteering work is exempt, or how can you be so certain that a work permit isn't required?

Have you?

I have tried to find info about it. Trying to find any copies of the orders is about impossible.

It has been stated that they are not required by the Labor Ministry.

But I am certainly aware of immigration issuing extensions without a work permit being required.

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Have you?

If I had seen any further information regarding this I would have posted it here.

But I see the decree which you posted above, and any helpful activity which a volunteer does can easily be classified as "professional work" and would thus require a work permit by default.

There could potentially be exceptions, but that nobody can point to them leads me to believe that they might not exist.

 

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

But I am certainly aware of immigration issuing extensions without a work permit being required.

The current extension rules are from 2014 and according to them a work permit is no requirement to get an extension for volunteering.

Before you said that since the change in 2018 a work permit for volunteer work is no longer required. This would imply that before 2018 it was required, and even then immigration did already issue extensions without work permit. Just because immigration doesn't require a work permit to issue an extension, doesn't mean that a work permit isn't required to be in compliance with labor laws.

Edited May 27, 2021 by jackdd

[ubonjoe]

17 minutes ago, jackdd said:

The current extension rules are from 2014 and according to them a work permit is no requirement to get an extension for volunteering.

Immigration order 327/2557 does not mention a work permit in clause 2.21 but 138/2557 for the required documents does mention it "3. Copy of work permit".

[rulebythieves]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

So in conclusion, you need a work permit? It all seems to not be so straightforward.. Thanks again.

[rulebythieves]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Immigration order 327/2557 does not mention a work permit in clause 2.21 but 138/2557 for the required documents does mention it "3. Copy of work permit".

Thanks ubonjoe, do you mind linking the sources? Would be very helpful!

[rulebythieves]

https://www.immigration.go.th/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/1591003176402.pdf

Order of the Immigration Bureau no. 104/2563 dated March 30, 2020 states "4. A copy of work permit or in case of changing workplace, the receipt of new work permit application and the unexpired previous work permit may be used, except for the case prescribed by the law that work permit is not required."

Correct me if I'm wrong but am I looking at the most recent order? It seems the last sentence "except for the case prescribed by the law that work permit is not required." may be grounds for some exceptions regarding work permit?

[ubonjoe]

20 minutes ago, rulebythieves said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but am I looking at the most recent order? It seems the last sentence "except for the case prescribed by the law that work permit is not required." may be grounds for some exceptions regarding work permit?

Clause 2.1 is for those working for a company not volunteer work.

Clause 2.21 is for volunteer work.

[ubonjoe]

37 minutes ago, rulebythieves said:

So in conclusion, you need a work permit? It all seems to not be so straightforward.. Thanks again.

I can assure you immigration is not requiring work permits for normal volunteer work now. If working in management of a organization that volunteers work with it may be needed. Or possibley if teaching.

36 minutes ago, rulebythieves said:

Thanks ubonjoe, do you mind linking the sources? Would be very helpful!

Downloads of the immigration orders is in this pinned topic.

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/981135-laws-regulations-police-orders-etc/

 

[Nanaplaza666]

6 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Have you?

I have tried to find info about it. Trying to find any copies of the orders is about impossible.

It has been stated that they are not required by the Labor Ministry.

But I am certainly aware of immigration issuing extensions without a work permit being required.

Don't let jackdd bring you of your tracks ubon , you have been giving people very correct info for many years . I believe you over jack any day of the week . If he wants to be right just agree to disagree or this argument will never stop ???? . Ubonjoe for prime minister ????????????

[elcaro]

25 minutes ago, Nanaplaza666 said:

Don't let jackdd bring you of your tracks ubon , you have been giving people very correct info for many years . I believe you over jack any day of the week . If he wants to be right just agree to disagree or this argument will never stop ???? . Ubonjoe for prime minister ????????????

Haha yea it's a difficult argument to win. Lack or feeble evidence against ubonjoe always means ubonjoe is right imo.

[jackdd]

1 minute ago, elcaro said:

Haha yea it's a difficult argument to win. Lack or feeble evidence against ubonjoe always means ubonjoe is right imo.

Ubonjoe provided the evidence that a work permit is required himself.

- The royal decree from 2018 makes no exception for volunteers

- Police order 138/2557 requires a work permit to apply for an extension based on volunteering

These are facts, this isn't just an opinion. Contrary to these facts ubonjoe thinks that a work permit is not required.

Everybody is of course free to decide by himself if he wants to believe facts or an opinion.

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

Contrary to these facts ubonjoe thinks that a work permit is not required.

I don't think I know has not been required to apply for an extension since many people have gotten them without a work permit. I think immigration may of changed 2.21 in 138/2557 but it was not made public or it was done with a internal order.

Here is the requirements to apply a non-o visa for volunteer work that does not require a work permit or a application approval letter for one. https://bangkokimmigration.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/09.pdf

[rulebythieves]

19 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't think I know has not been required to apply for an extension since many people have gotten them without a work permit. I think immigration may of changed 2.21 in 138/2557 but it was not made public or it was done with a internal order.

Here is the requirements to apply a non-o visa for volunteer work that does not require a work permit or a application approval letter for one. https://bangkokimmigration.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/09.pdf

Thank you so much ubonjoe. Super excited to make the move!

[LukKrueng]

22 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The work permit rules were changed in 2018 and it mostly eliminated work permits for volunteer work.

I can a recall a big problem after that when Chiang Mai immigration was refusing extensions for volunteers due to them not having a work permit and the the Labor Ministry was not issuing them for volunteer work.

I know about half a dozen people staying in Chiang Mai and volunteer as teachers all with work permits

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, LukKrueng said:

I know about half a dozen people staying in Chiang Mai and volunteer as teachers all with work permits

Teaching is different than other work as a volunteer. I wrote this earlier in the topic.

 

5 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I can assure you immigration is not requiring work permits for normal volunteer work now. If working in management of a organization that volunteers work with it may be needed. Or possibley if teaching.

 

[jackdd]

11 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't think I know has not been required to apply for an extension since many people have gotten them without a work permit.

Many people have gotten volunteer extensions without doing any volunteering. But from this I wouldn't conclude that volunteering is officially not required to get a volunteer extension.

 

11 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

Here is the requirements to apply a non-o visa for volunteer work that does not require a work permit or a application approval letter for one. https://bangkokimmigration.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/09.pdf

Here the requirements to apply for a non-B visa to work in Thailand, it doesn't require a work permit or application approval letter: http://bangkokimmigration.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/01-edit_NON-B.pdf

Should we conclude that a work permit isn't required to work in Thailand? Probably not.

I'm sure you are aware that applying for a work permit with a tourist visa isn't possible, so it just makes sense that a work permit isn't required when applying for a non-imm visa. This doesn't mean a work permit isn't required when actually working/volunteering.

 

11 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I think immigration may of changed 2.21 in 138/2557 but it was not made public or it was done with a internal order.

So you think there are documents based on the royal decree which haven't been made public which exempt volunteer work and that there are immigration documents which haven't been made public as well.

Based on your assumption about the existence of such documents you assure people here that a work permit isn't required.