Low Thai craftsmanship: Cultural, or just a sign of their economic status?

[DaLa]

Depends how you approach the project. I designed and planned our 5000 sq foot shop with 6 bed house alongside. I then employed a (Thai) architect to run the job for me (us). The architect created a contract for the building company and a 160 page technical specification.

 

He was on site all day most days and I made aesthetic decisions which I funnelled through him. For some work we took out additional contracts with SCG and had a stage payment contract for those elements.

 

The finishing of 8 bathrooms were perfectly tiled, it’s structurally sound (I have a construction background) and safe; that is, rebar dimensions checked and concrete slump tests performed, safety glass where required, electrical installation certified, fire alarms and emergency lighting certified etc.

 

Possibly cost us 5 Mill more than I could have had it built for but there were no problems with any of the construction guys (and girls), no harsh words or worse between customer and construction company, all finished in 9 months.

 

There are 2 parties in any job no matter how small and sometimes it’s not only the person employed that is at fault and a good job requires input from the customer. If that input is lacking or misguided then that can lead to some of the problems noted in previous comments.

[richard_smith237]

The mentality for most Thai's seems to be to take the path of least resistance at all times.

 

This obviously has its pro’s and cons.

 

The Pro’s are clearly a more relaxed place to be and society in general is more fatalistic and stresses less about things outside of their control - this makes Thailand a very enjoyable place to be and Thai’s in general enjoyable people to be around. 

 

The Con’s are the experiences we have all encountered on this thread. The approach to the quality of workmanship is simply outrageous - this can be electrics or simple construction. The occasions where we have workmen in to do something and I’m pleasantly surprised are very rare. 

 

Another facet of ’The path of least resistance’ is that no one challenges authority, policing is allowed to be corrupt and lazy, politicians are allowed to be corrupt. 

 

What makes Thailand lovely also costs it dearly - two sides of the same coin. 

 

[Captain Monday]

I saw a situation in California where a single stand of Cable TV wire fell off a telephone pole near my 

 Police and fire engines were summoned

[mfd101]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

What makes Thailand lovely also costs it dearly - two sides of the same coin. 

Yes. A nice summary.

[Yellowtail]

When people grow up around cheap, crappy stuff they really do not have any way of judging stuff.

 

That workmanship in Thailand is sometimes shoddy it less of a concern to me than is the deterioration of quality workmanship in the Unites States.  

[NancyL]

We did a major condo remodeling and I completely enjoyed the process.  Husband and I are engineers by training, but not good at DIY.  We started out with one contractor, an Aussie and his two man work crew who gutted out the place and then dropped off the face of the planet, not returning phone calls or emails.  Just as well; I had the impression the Aussie didn't like taking orders from a woman and one of his workers starting living in the gutted condo, against our wishes, until we changed the locks.

 

Then I spent many, many weeks just sitting in the huge open space, measuring, laying out rooms with tape and drawing.  I tried to get Hubby to work the dumb end of the measuring tape, but found a large rock to be more cooperative. 

 

Eventually, I had a rough plan and this time made inquiries about an architect.  The Thai architect did a good job, but needed constant prompting about when the next version of the drawings would be done.  He offered to work as the general contractor, but I wanted someone higher energy and made more inquiries.  

 

I found a young Akha man recommended by some Swiss women.  I figured if someone can satisfy Swiss women, he has to be good.  And he was.  Most of his workers and the subcontractors were Akha.  We developed a great relationship.  At one point, he and I were in the bathroom, which had its share of problems, trying to come up with a solution to one of the many problems.  I made a suggestion and he said "no, that's a stupid idea".  I looked at him and said "that's a very direct thing for a Thai person to say."  He looked insulted and said "I'm not Thai."  It was a stupid idea.

[Hal65]

I installed an AC recently. The thais cleaned a little when they saw me cleaning. Otherwise i got the impression they didn't feel it was their job. 

 

There were pipes on the exterior i had to prompt them to remove. One of the pipes was just dangling there, easy for anyone to see as broken or unneeded.

 

Instead of measuring pipes they guesstimate and cut off pieces based on the initial guess, shortening further as they test the length out. Often their final selection is still a tad long but "close enough' in their eyes. I was standing 3 feet away as they did this so there was no shame in it, I guess pre-measuring with tape isn't a thing here.

 

My fan started slowing down. when I pointed this out they decided to re-route power to another outlet. They tried drilling it but cracked the plastic covering. They also told me the outlet could not be used for other stuff anymore.

 

I am at least happy I was there to oversee everything. If I didn't watch them the AC room would have less electric when the AC runs. This ordeal has reinforced my belief never to buy property here.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

On 6/25/2021 at 5:49 PM, Hal65 said:

he just punched the cord holders in this wavy pattern in the fastest way he could. There is now a wavy cord running 4-5 inches from the corner of my wall.

 

I had a flourescent light housing in need of replacement. It was also done crookedly

 

A Thai handyman came to cut a new board to hold the mattress. It was not cut straight so a piece jutted out from the side. 

 

No one ever complained at Salvador Dali for this.

[Dr B]

We are nearing the end of the construction of our Thai wooden house. One thing that farang seem to ignore is that there is no system here that I am aware of to train tradespeople, like a vocational college or whatever. Having lived for 16 years in Bangkok, it was evident that highly skilled work was being done, on hotels, condominiums, airports and the like. The organisations that do this work have experienced supervisors, and keep their teams. As one of the earlier comments said I also am always impressed when Thai labour can produce internal finishes to a high standard that they have never seen.

So, since there is no formal training, most of the construction workers, especially where I now live in Krabi, are basically self-taught, which means by observation of others, who also have not been taught. It can be seen clearly for example in the use of concrete. Nobody has taught them that there is something called a water-cement ratio, which controls the strength of concrete. Two and a half years ago when we were laying our floor slab, I ordered 75 mm slump concrete of the strength that I wanted. I also ordered a small mobile crane and skip to place the concrete over the slab. The labour said it was not necessary as they would make chutes, but I knew that 75 mm slump concrete would not flow down chutes. The concrete arrived, a slump test was done, it was well over 100 mm and I sent it away, much to the surprise of the driver! The next truck arrived, slump was OK, and the skip dleivered it to the location as a glistening heap, leading to shouts of "More water!" I declined, but the manager of the concrete plant was there and asked me if I wanted more water added. I made it clear that I did not, but told the labour to use the electric vibrator which I had provided. The looks on their faces as they saw the concrete heap flow down were magic, and there were no more protests.

Associated with this is the standard way of mixing concrete here in large black plastic bowl. It is just no way to produce good concrete. The mixing process is very hard work, so they will always add too much water to make it easier. I am not sure that they know the reason why but they seem to compensate by adding a lot more cement than is normally required. I can tell when I amd rilling holes through the rendering for waste pipes etc. It is very hard, and we are paying for the cement.

I have noted that there is a Tiling Association in USA which stipulates that the substrate should be level to not more than 1/8" in 6 ft, or something similar. This means that the tiles can then be laid quickly and easily, because they follow the substrate. Not so here. Nobody has an idea of laying or fixing a substrate, be it floor or wall, that is either vertical or horizontal, because everything will be corrected when each tile is laid, one by one, to line and level. This works, but it is painfully slow, and typically uses a very thick layer of mortar, often 50 mm or more, which raises your floor level. I am using a leveled screed, topped off with self-levelling grout, which is a Thai product from Bangkok (much cheaper than the one from HomePro) and which they sell to big contractors for airports and railway stations, so it is available. Since we have a wooden house nothing is square or vertical, but that is the joy of the house. However, I expected that, when fixing framing for dry lining, they would set that vertical and square, along with the SmartBoard. No such luck! All over the place, with screw heads poking out, because all would be corrected with a thick layer of tile cement.

We now have a team of carpenters working for us who are craftsmen. They take pride in their work, and do a good job, including hand making all doors and frames from teak for our Thai kitchen. They work alongside me on diiferent tasks, and are keen to see what I do, and what tools I have available. They were very interested in my hammer action drill, which was very good for inserting big screws into hardwood, and made a lot of use of my battery operated mitre saw and bench. They have also become quite used to hot plastic glue, and found my shape template very useful for cutting tiles. I did not manage to change their habits on tiling, so am continuing to do much of it myself. They were fascinated when I soldered capillary joints in copper pipe, and amazed today when I repaired my Dremel. Very recently I bought a mortar mixer, which is very good for the fllor screed, self-leveling grout, and tile adhesive. They have operated it for me a few times and seem to think it is useful.

We have also had cowboys doing some work, until we found out, so there are all sorts out there. One thing they seem to have in common is that they are very poor managers. Work often seems to take longer than they had planned, so the agreed unit rates do not give them enough income. We are gtting used to it and try to help them to manage better, but it is not easy for us to control productivity. At the moment they are painting the underside of a timber floor and joists, the floor a light colour and the joists a dark colour. I tried to make it clear that they should paint the light colour first, well into the corners, and then cover it over neatly with the dark colour. They still tried to go very carefully at the corner with the light colour, then applied the dark colour, then found that they had not reached the corner and went back with the light colour, and probbaly a final go with the dark colour! I had even shown them how to use a good quality large brush to get the paint into the corners, but as soon as I stopped they went back to their little brushes with no bristles.

Just my thoughts.

[Thomas J]

Well we just had it where two toilets were leaking apparently the wax seal had deteriorated and was allowing water to escape.  The workers who mind you work at some of the condo projects came and they replaced both of the toilets using some white caulk to nicely seal the toilet back in place.  We noticed that we continued to smell from the toilet and upon examination found that water was now seeping on the tile underneath the toilets.  We finally got them to come back, they pulled the toilets and despite us asking them if they had replaced the wax seals to which they said yes, they reused the old ones, upon pulling the toilets up, no seal whatsoever.  Do they really think that some omission like that will go unnoticed. 

[richard_smith237]

3 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Well we just had it where two toilets were leaking apparently the wax seal had deteriorated and was allowing water to escape.  The workers who mind you work at some of the condo projects came and they replaced both of the toilets using some white caulk to nicely seal the toilet back in place.  We noticed that we continued to smell from the toilet and upon examination found that water was now seeping on the tile underneath the toilets.  We finally got them to come back, they pulled the toilets and despite us asking them if they had replaced the wax seals to which they said yes, they reused the old ones, upon pulling the toilets up, no seal whatsoever.  Do they really think that some omission like that will go unnoticed. 

Hope they put more effort into the work than you did into making that readable !!! ????????????

[Scott]

Troll post reported and removed.  

 

[Dr B]

I am afraid that there will always be problems of leaking toilets here, because Thai toilets with an S trap are very difficult to fix. I have just fitted two, and one came with a special black plastic gasket ring with screw holes and slots, and also a wax ring. I suspect that most Thai "plumbers" don't really know what the wax ring is for and will throw it away. One big problem is that everything is out of sight at the end. In answer to the question "Do they really think that some omission like that will go unnoticed?" the answer is really yes until they are far enough away not to care, and that is true of many toilet installations. They leak, get smelly, rot floorboards, etc, but all when the "plumbers" are well gone. It does not help that even the instructions are poor. We were fitting a new Hafele pan, but there were no decent dimensions shown on the required level for the gasket ring or the wax seal. One fitted inside the other, but if too low there would be no seal, and if too high the pan would rock on the top of the seal. There was also no mention of the two special bolts which fitted into the gasket ring and hold the pan down. That made the operation a three man job. Two were required to lift and carefully lower the pan, and one right down on the floor to guide the way. That was because, not only did the wax seal need to fit around the discharge orifice, but the two bolts had to fit through holes in the base. There is absolutely no way the lifters could do that as they could not see. Also space starts to get limited as you get near the wall against which the toilet will sit (roughing in dimensions typically 300 to 400 mm), and often the side of the toilet is not too far from another wall. It all went well in the end, with me watching closely, and then they had to crawl into the spaces to get the washers, nuts and caps onto the holding down bolts.

Coming from the UK and Australia the P trap is very very much easier to install as you can see everything that you are doing, but they are very rare here. I brought a rubber gasket system from Australia and now use that for my S Traps, much easier.

[bbko]

I don't think problems like these are Thai specific, in the USA you can always find day laborers around the home improvement parking lots saying they can do any construction job. Also plenty of youtube videos of idiots doing construction work.

Like many have said already, if you find a good "tradesman", hang onto their contact info, good as gold. 

[Yellowtail]

9 hours ago, bbko said:

 Also plenty of youtube videos of idiots doing construction work.

With silicone and tape 

[Denim]

On 6/25/2021 at 6:06 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

And the same seems to apply with hiring people. Why should you hire someone for 1000B a day if you can find someone for 300B?

Saw this many times at the two moobahns we lived out in Bangkok.

 

For our extension in the second house we employed a builder who's work we had seen in our first house and had hired before because it was clear he did a good job. Naturally he charged more .

 

In our second house we employed him again. Finished result very good. Paid and never needed to call him back. 

 

Other people who were looking for a builder asked us how much we had paid. They always guffawed at the answer . " Peng py "  He has ripped off the dumb falang.

 

So our immediate neighbors and others around and about employed

' changs ' from up country to come down and do theirs 30% cheaper.

 

Result. The first heavy rain flooded out neighbors kitchen and water leaked through to our kitchen roof also. Lots of damage to their furniture . Their builder had to return twice to try and stop the flooding plus they had to pay OUR builder to repair our kitchen ceiling. Eventually they sacked him and got another builder in to do the repairs. It was the same story in other houses.

 

So in the end we had the last laugh as they either had to spend more than us getting things put right or else learn to live with the abortion they had paid for cheaply.

 

As my dad used to say : ' Cheap is often more expensive in the long run '

[Yellowtail]

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."

 

Benjamin Franklin

[jvs]

On 6/26/2021 at 7:35 AM, mfd101 said:

When you find a good tradesman, you become lifelong friends. They look after you. You look after them.

Very true.The Thai man that build my house over ten years ago is a real tradesman.

you can hand him a drawing and he will built the house.

no need to check anything!

When ever i have something to do he shows up usually a few days later.

He is always busy,i pay him well but that is well worth it.

[VocalNeal]

A combination of hiring labourers to do a craftsman's job and locals having to do what they are told. 

As for the cable guy he does more than four installs a day? No time for niceties. Just in and out.