Is This the Typical Experience for Getting a Non-B Business Visa?

[Walker88]

I bought a business in Thailand. Part of the process required that I get a Non-B Business Visa as well as a Work Permit (required for the various bank accounts I would need).

 

This is how the visa process went......

 

First, I was on a Tourist Visa when I decided to buy the business. "No problem" I was told. The application was more comprehensive that a doctoral thesis. It involved at least 100 pages of documents, including 'action photos' of me sitting behind a desk full of papers in a cramped office, plus photos of me standing with staff outside of the business but with the address visible. The stack of documents also included copies of every page of my passport and an original copy (from DBD) of the shareholder agreement currently on file. Obtaining the original copy from DBD came with a hefty charge of several thousand baht.

 

At Immigration I was told that the process was lengthy, but that I could expedite it with a cash payment of 38,000 baht. (I'm not sure where this figure came from.) This was told to me directly by an Immigration officer. Obviously I was not to be given any receipt indicating payment of this 'fee'. Told that approval could be months without the 'fee' payment, I decided to bite the bullet and pay up. It's not as if I thought there was anyplace I could go to find a sympathetic ear.

 

A few days later I had an initial 3 month Non-B business visa. I then was able to use that to obtain a work permit.

 

When the initial 3 months were up, back to Immigration I went to get what I thought would be a one year visa. Again the document stack was onerous, with every document required during the first visit, plus documents related to my Work Permit and another original and certified copy of the new DBD registration (again, at several thousand baht cost). The stack also included 5-6 pages of 'action shots' like before....in an office that wasn't mine, outside my new business with staff and the address visible.

 

The entire stack---each page requiring my signature---was over 100 pages. The Immigration Officer gave the stack a perfunctory glance, then instantly announced a document was missing (how she knew must have involved clairvoyance, because she barely looked at any of the pages). I was told I could get the now-required document and come back another day, or else pay a cash fee to expedite the process. I should point out that there wasn't even the slightest pretense about the 'fee' and what it actually was.

 

I chose to produce the document, which took several days, and of course put me into 'Overstay' Status. After producing the newly demanded document, I was shooed off with a contemptuous wave of the hand, I assume because I had failed to supplement the IO's income with a fee. I waited outside the cubicle area until every last customer had departed, then was called in to complete my procedure. That procedure involved paying another 1900 baht legitimate fee plus both paying for the Overstay as well as signing a document admitting I was a bad boy. In my passport was an "Under Consideration" stamp, requiring me to return in two weeks' time.

 

Two weeks later, in a quick procedure, I had a 6-week visa in my passport. I thought this second visa would be a one year visa, but six weeks was it. I was told this was normal and that a Non-B Business/Investor Visa requires two stamps before the 1-year is given.

 

Soon I will be off again, massive document stack in hand---including new copies of everything they already have multiple copies of---hoping to finally get a 1 year stamp. I now assume 'something will be missing', that will either require a wait that will put me again into Overstay, or else can be expedited if I pay a cash 'fee'.

 

Is this typical, or have I just been particularly 'lucky'?

 

I notice on CNN Thailand is running a commercial trying to entice visitors and investors back. In the ad, the narrator speaks of a new simplified visa process. If that new process is what I underwent, I think one could call the TV spot 'false advertising'.

 

Thailand's economy has been wracked by Covid. At this time new foreign investment is much in need. If my experience is anything to go by, Thailand is going to have trouble attracting capital, because there are plenty of other countries in need of fresh capital at this time, and many will make the process much less onerous and more pleasant.

 

Knowing what I know now, I would not have bought the business.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Walker88

[tonray]

4 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Knowing what I know now, I would not have bought the business.

Great advice for future victims

[Gsxrnz]

If you're experiencing that feeling of SNAFU when dealing with bureaucracy in Thailand, then by definition the situation is indeed normal.

[OneMoreFarang]

I read only part of your post when you tried to do it alone and you paid a bribe. Why?

Why did you try to do it alone? You obviously had no experience.

And why did you pay the bribe without any experience?

 

Personally I always ask an experienced agent to do those things. Years ago I went on visa runs - with an agent and a bus full of others in the same situation.

And when I started working in a company they used an agent to get my initial visa and work permit.

And now every year we have an agent who does these things.

Now my only involvement with immigration every year is going there once a year about 8:30, walking in with my agent who who was first in the queue at 6am. We walk to the desk of the officer, I smile in the camera, and 5 minutes later all is done and I go home again. See you next year for the same procedure.

 

There are good agents who do this every day. Why don't you use them and avoid the hassle?

Edited August 10, 2021 by OneMoreFarang

[blackcab]

DBD documents are a few hundred baht and come with a receipt. I hope it was not someone within your company that was charging you this much as it is not a good sign.

 

In my opinion a non B extension of stay is one of the most difficult to obtain in terms of the documentation required. In terms of the quantity of documents required your experience is typical.

[Bagwain]

The company docs basic cost is 1500. You would have been better of using a lawyer. My work permit & Permission to stay (Visa) costs me 32 k every yr. It is a hassle which I don't look forward to it. Especially when you don't know when they don't tell you until the day that they are coming to take photos of me and staff in the office. I run a pool building company and its a pain when this happens. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Bagwain

[FritsSikkink]

"At Immigration I was told that the process was lengthy, but that I could expedite it with a cash payment of 38,000 baht. "

For that kind of money you could have outsourced it to an experienced law firm and keep some change.

"Knowing what I know now, I would not have bought the business."

Having a business requires effort, can't be much of a business if it wasn't worth the trouble.

Edited August 10, 2021 by FritsSikkink

[Walker88]

29 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I read only part of your post when you tried to do it alone and you paid a bribe. Why?

Why did you try to do it alone? You obviously had no experience.

And why did you pay the bribe without any experience?

 

Personally I always ask an experienced agent to do those things. Years ago I went on visa runs - with an agent and a bus full of others in the same situation.

And when I started working in a company they used an agent to get my initial visa and work permit.

And now every year we have an agent who does these things.

Now my only involvement with immigration every year is going there once a year about 8:30, walking in with my agent who who was first in the queue at 6am. We walk to the desk of the officer, I smile in the camera, and 5 minutes later all is done and I go home again. See you next year for the same procedure.

 

There are good agents who do this every day. Why don't you use them and avoid the hassle?

I didn't do it alone.

 

I think things have changed, because Covid has hit the pocketbooks of corrupt officials, and they seem to feel the need to make up for it however they can.

 

Note that I am not a worker, but rather an investor/business owner, so I assume the IOs assume I'm not the type of farang worker delighted to be getting 50-100K baht per month. When they see the DBD, they instantly know the rough value of the company, so they make an assessment of what they think they can squeeze out of the owner.

 

I see workers who come in and out in an instant. I have noticed that business owners have a longer and less rewarding experience, though it seems to be rewarding for the IOs.

[Walker88]

11 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

"At Immigration I was told that the process was lengthy, but that I could expedite it with a cash payment of 38,000 baht. "

For that kind of money you could have outsourced it to an experienced law firm and keep some change.

"Knowing what I know now, I would not have bought the business."

Having a business requires effort, can't be much of a business if it wasn't worth the trouble.

I contacted 10 different law firms. Not a one of them was close to the amount you noted. All were much higher, and they listed all sorts of incidentals involved in the visa/permit process. Agents are cheaper, but I guess one gets what they pay for. Law firms are better for other processes.

 

(By the way...noticing your 'signature', I can tell you one thing:  the NSA neither knows you exist nor cares.)

Edited August 10, 2021 by Walker88

[Walker88]

The good news is I've turned what was a losing business into a profitable one, which should be a lot more profitable when Covid ends.

 

Of course, turning a profit might mean it costs me more to jump through all the bureaucratic hoops, where hands seem to be out every step of the way.

[FritsSikkink]

5 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I contacted 10 different law firms. Not a one of them was close to the amount you noted. All were much higher, and they listed all sorts of incidentals involved in the visa/permit process. Agents are cheaper, but I guess one gets what they pay for. Law firms are better for other processes.

Only a couple of posters so far but already 2 who did find a good law firm to do it for them for less than your bribe not even looking at whatever you paid the agent.

[FritsSikkink]

5 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

The good news is I've turned what was a losing business into a profitable one, which should be a lot more profitable when Covid ends.

 

Of course, turning a profit might mean it costs me more to jump through all the bureaucratic hoops, where hands seem to be out every step of the way.

How did you turn a losing business into a profitable one when you are only an investor / owner? Must do some work then too.

Edited August 10, 2021 by FritsSikkink

[Misty]

4 hours ago, Walker88 said:

I notice on CNN Thailand is running a commercial trying to entice visitors and investors back. In the ad, the narrator speaks of a new simplified visa process. If that new process is what I underwent, I think one could call the TV spot 'false advertising'.

Thank you very much for the detailed post about your experience.  Unfortunately the amount of paperwork you discuss is very much the norm for companies that do not have BOI privileges or which cannot use "One Stop Service".  I had not heard of a direct request for a special 'fee' from an IO before, however.

 

Was this Chang Wattana, or somewhere else?

 

The CNN ad you refer to is most likely for a new initiative for "long-term visas" such as discussed here: https://www.dfdl.com/resources/legal-and-tax-updates/thailand-legal-tax/thai-government-considers-tax-incentives-long-term-visas-property-rights-and-more-to-entice-wealthy-foreign-nationals-to-thailand/

[mokwit]

Every company I worked for except the first used an agent, including a listed company with hundreds of employees (many of them in the personnel dept) which was the most kee neeow company I have ever worked for - even they paid an agent. You ride piggyback on the agents "goodwill".

 

It was along long time ago but with the first one that didn't use an agent I had to attend multiple times. The personnel dept told me they were angling for a payment by making things difficult, and they in turn had crunched the numbers, right down to petrol costs of visits, and decided to play a game of going through the proper channels as i was qualified and this was a priority industry, so at the end of the day Imm had no grounds to refuse.

 

What made me smile was that every time the IO explained how this was wrong or this was missing, they would nod and act like he was imparting some great wisdom, even though they knew it was BS. Learned a lesson on how it is done here from that.

 

Of course I should stress that this was a long time ago and this sort of thing I am sure does not go on anymore.

[OneMoreFarang]

4 hours ago, Walker88 said:

I didn't do it alone.

 

I think things have changed, because Covid has hit the pocketbooks of corrupt officials, and they seem to feel the need to make up for it however they can.

 

Note that I am not a worker, but rather an investor/business owner, so I assume the IOs assume I'm not the type of farang worker delighted to be getting 50-100K baht per month. When they see the DBD, they instantly know the rough value of the company, so they make an assessment of what they think they can squeeze out of the owner.

 

I see workers who come in and out in an instant. I have noticed that business owners have a longer and less rewarding experience, though it seems to be rewarding for the IOs.

And again, do you have experience with bribing Thai officials? Probably not. So you pay what you think you should pay. And they will obviously see that they deal with someone who has no idea about this. Now guess what they think next...

Hire a professional! He will know what money should be paid to whom and what to expect in return.

[MarleyMarl]

I cannot speak on your WP or extension woes, but I recommend using a visa agent, you have to realize this is one of the most corrupt countries in the world and that "fee" you paid, don't feel too bad about it. If you don't pay it, they'll just string you along, saying "this picture/document isn't right", or "we need X months not X months", against all logic and explanations, until your current visa runs out/giving you no choice.

 

I had no issues, then all of a sudden they did it to me after I refused to pay, I went back and forth a few times, then gave up. So for about 3 years I was traveling in and out of the country every 3 months, and getting a new 1 year, multi-entry non-b back home each year (which is possible if you have a WP, at least with consulate in Australia). I didn't mind this, as I have lots of air miles, until covid hit, so I had no choice but to go to a visa agent and pay the "fee", then bam, 1 year visa extended, no need to leave. Bare in mind, I run a legitimate business for over 10 years here, with 10+ local full time employees.

 

These issues have really put a damper on my views of Thailand over the years. It's sad really, I know I am only a small business, but I employee local Thai people and provide them with well paying work, including from jobs that arise from outside Thailand that otherwise would not be done here. But there is no appreciation for this, only difficulties, the local immigration office only cares about making an illegal $1,000 each year. Therefore I am not scaling my business here, and instead investing and setting up things back home. I'm sure I am not the only one.

Edited August 10, 2021 by MarleyMarl

[Walker88]

5 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And again, do you have experience with bribing Thai officials? Probably not. So you pay what you think you should pay. And they will obviously see that they deal with someone who has no idea about this. Now guess what they think next...

Hire a professional! He will know what money should be paid to whom and what to expect in return.

I have many years of experience traveling to/living in Thailand, and also being, at one time, an accredited diplomat here. Sadly, the folks I knew in places like the RTP and Royal Household have passed.

 

I had an agent with me. It was explained to me that times are tough and IO's have to push harder to cover their nut, so they demand higher tributes. Because I am an investor and company director, they seemed to feel they discovered the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.  What was mildly shocking was they had no fear. They knew that corruption is perfectly okay, and farangs exist to be milked.

 

On my second visit, getting the second two month visa, the IO was outright contemptuous of both me and my agent, because I ignored her demands for cash. As noted, she made me wait until just before closing to give me the 'under consideration'.

[Walker88]

4 hours ago, MarleyMarl said:

I cannot speak on your WP or extension woes, but I recommend using a visa agent, you have to realize this is one of the most corrupt countries in the world and that "fee" you paid, don't feel too bad about it. If you don't pay it, they'll just string you along, saying "this picture/document isn't right", or "we need X months not X months", against all logic and explanations, until your current visa runs out/giving you no choice.

 

I had no issues, then all of a sudden they did it to me after I refused to pay, I went back and forth a few times, then gave up. So for about 3 years I was traveling in and out of the country every 3 months, and getting a new 1 year, multi-entry non-b back home each year (which is possible if you have a WP, at least with consulate in Australia). I didn't mind this, as I have lots of air miles, until covid hit, so I had no choice but to go to a visa agent and pay the "fee", then bam, 1 year visa extended, no need to leave. Bare in mind, I run a legitimate business for over 10 years here, with 10+ local full time employees.

 

These issues have really put a damper on my views of Thailand over the years. It's sad really, I know I am only a small business, but I employee local Thai people and provide them with well paying work, including from jobs that arise from outside Thailand that otherwise would not be done here. But there is no appreciation for this, only difficulties, the local immigration office only cares about making an illegal $1,000 each year. Therefore I am not scaling my business here, and instead investing and setting up things back home. I'm sure I am not the only one.

So true. The second trip was almost comical. 100 pages of mostly drivel. The IO started flipping through them without looking at any of them before deciding something was missing. I suspect she manufactured that 'requirement' on the spot. Then came the demand for tribute. My agent and I refused, and were just made to wait until closing, long after everyone else had gone, to get the 'under consideration' stamp.

 

I've lived in 10 countries and some have been similar in their level of corruption, but there is usually some song and dance or ritualistic behavior involved. Here it's just "Give me money".

[MarleyMarl]

20 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

So true. The second trip was almost comical. 100 pages of mostly drivel. The IO started flipping through them without looking at any of them before deciding something was missing. I suspect she manufactured that 'requirement' on the spot. Then came the demand for tribute. My agent and I refused, and were just made to wait until closing, long after everyone else had gone, to get the 'under consideration' stamp.

 

I've lived in 10 countries and some have been similar in their level of corruption, but there is usually some song and dance or ritualistic behavior involved. Here it's just "Give me money".

One of the reasons they rejected me once was I was not wearing a suit in my pictures of the office, I was wearing pants and a polo shirt, some how that is not acceptable attire, in my own god damn office.

It's such a pain in the a*s traveling out there, and wasting the whole day at Cheang Wattana, to be told this nonsense. I will be switching over to marriage visa soon, so that'll be interesting, but long term plans are to leave.

[rumak]

11 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

There are good agents who do this every day. Why don't you use them and avoid the hassle?

you might be getting a lot of PM's ............... asking for a reference  ????

[khunPer]

15 hours ago, Walker88 said:

Is this typical, or have I just been particularly 'lucky'?

You probably have been particular "lucky".

 

People I know have their company's external accountant, or their law form, to take care of all the paperwork with non-B, and extensions of stay based on work permit. For an up-to-date shareholder list is normally charged 500 baht, same for a "meting report".

 

Administration and paperwork can often be more extensive than in one's home country, but external accountants and law firms are used to the procedure, so let them handle it, it's also cheaper than paying bribe, or using an agent, if you have a good accountant, or lawyer...????

[RAZZELL]

When in Rome ????????

 

RAZZ

[Walker88]

8 hours ago, MarleyMarl said:

One of the reasons they rejected me once was I was not wearing a suit in my pictures of the office, I was wearing pants and a polo shirt, some how that is not acceptable attire, in my own god damn office.

It's such a pain in the a*s traveling out there, and wasting the whole day at Chaeng Wattana, to be told this nonsense. I will be switching over to marriage visa soon, so that'll be interesting, but long term plans are to leave.

While we often see posts and comments about folks on retirement, marriage or other sorts of visas, I'm not sure some understand just how silly the 'requirements' are for an investor/business visa (not as just an employee). There's a separate area at Chaengwattana just to entertain us. We must turn in pages of 'action shots' in an office, as if 'office' denotes 'investor'. You had the 'suit requirement', as if 'investor' and 'suit' are some other cosmic entangled pair. I needed to have stacks upon stacks of folders on the desk in front of me, as if my Inbox suffered from a tsunami of paperwork. I thought the agent was joking having me take all those shots, complete with 'concern' shown on my face, or 'thinking as if you're coming up with a business idea'. She wasn't joking, but instead speaking from experience. It's like a child's play acting.

 

Also, 'investor' seems to connote a rock from which much more blood can be squeezed. I kind of assumed the IO had something like a car payment coming up and maybe a Chanel bag she wanted to buy, calculated the amount of money she'd need for that, and came at me with that number as her tribute to do her job. And so blatant...no shame, no embarrassment, no fear of getting caught.....just a straight up, clear as a bell, demand for money.

[Walker88]

Thank you to those who responded and said, yes, what I experienced is typical.

 

Corrupt to the core and juvenile at the same time.

 

Diogenes lantern would burn out if his search had been in this country.

[Arkady]

A sorry tale indeed and there are signs that corruption has come back with a vengeance in some sectors with the return of the 80s style 'half baked democracy'.

 

The OP's problems in getting visas as an investor remind me of problems faced by applicants for PR using the investor route.  At the same time people applying as regular employees were having a much easier time.  Again those applying for PR with Thai wife and kids have a harder time that those without, as Immigration will check kids' DNA and ask for photos of you bouncing on the bed with wife and other ridiculous nonsense.

 

Returning the case in point I suspect it would have been much easier, if the OP had applied as an employee of the newly acquired company with a Thai director signing all the papers.  I may be wrong but I don't think there are any special provisions in applying for NON-B visas for those who happen to own shares in their companies. Many people do, especially those working for listed companies where they may also be directors.

 

Re company bank account signatories.  I am not sure if all banks these days require WPs for signatories, although it is possible that they wouldn't allow foreigners on tourist visas to be signatories.  I opened a company many years ago and went to open an account at my branch of Bangkok Bank which refused on the grounds I had no WP.  So I just went over to Kasikornbank and opened the account with no problem. The important thing from them was the copy of the affidavit from the DBD showing I was the company signatory. I operated the account for many years without a WP and Kasikornbank never once asked to see one. I don't know if that is still the case.  I also recall opening an account for a rep office with the CFO of the Hong Kong office as a bank account signatory which I organised without him even being in Thailand.  If not possible to open a bank account without a WP,  getting a Thai to be signatory until you have a WP might be an alternative. It is also possible for company to have a signatory who is neither a director nor an authorised signatory, as long as you have a form signed by the authorised signatory.  In fact I am currently sole bank account signatory at Kasikornbank for a company that I am neither a directory nor authorised signatory. Kasikornbank seems to work best for this kind of stuff and I recommend not touching Bangkok Bank of Siam Commercial for anything involving foreigners that is not absolutely run of the mill. Technically you can get into trouble for acting as an authorised signatory of a company with a WP but I have never heard of anyone charged with that. The only context I have heard of this sort of thing causing problems is when people applied for PR when they were non-executive directors of companies without specific WPs.  But Immigration goes through PR applications with a fine tooth comb looking for things they can take issue with.

 

In the days when we had to get WPs for rep offices at the Ministry of Commerce I received a request from an official to give her a part time job in exchange for approval for a third work permit which the ministry was allowed to issue at its discretion. On quizzing her it turned out she didn't plan to attend our office or do any work in this position. So I told her I would have to ask approval from the regional HR director for such an unusual addition to the head count and she backed off and we got the third WP anyway.