Thai kids had to enter Thailand on UK passports for Sandbox - Now we got issues! Advice needed :-)

[ubonjoe]

28 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

The issue you raise are catered for under section 57 of the immigration act.

But is doesn't give a solution like the the clause in the immigration order does.

You have to remember the immigration act is dated 1979 and has not been changed since then.

The nationality act of 2008 covers many issues related to Thai nationality.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, Blot said:

This story also prompts me to ask a general question about passports because I was always under the impression that when entering a country from a "a flight"  you were obliged to enter on the passport which you boarded the flight with.

 

Clearly, that is not the case, or is it ?

No it's not. I never had a problem using home passport when entering home country from Thailand, despite using different passport to enter and exit Thailand.

Far as I'm concerned, you only have to exit a country with same passport entered on.

I don't see how they can stop anyone entering home country on an expired passport anyway. If one is a citizen one should have right of entry, IMO. It would be a problem trying to leave on an expired passport though.

[matchar]

Seems like a waste of time and money applying for an extension of stay for Thai children...just let them overstay.

 

What I would like to know is even when they reach 15 years of age, can Thai nationals be fined for overstaying on a foreign passport? Because like someone said, it would seem to be unconstitutional as they are not 'aliens'.

[cleopatra2]

55 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

But is doesn't give a solution like the the clause in the immigration order does.

You have to remember the immigration act is dated 1979 and has not been changed since then.

The nationality act of 2008 covers many issues related to Thai nationality.

The immigration act makes the status  alien and Thai national mutually exclusive. You can only be an alien or Thai national.

The competent officer under section 35 of the act has now power to limit or place any restrictions on a Thai national. The power given in the immigration act only applies to aliens.

 

Granting an extension on the basis of the applicant being a Thai national would be placing a restriction on the applicants basic rights under the constitution.

 

[CLCAsia]

My mother had a similar issue, and had to enter on her non-Thai passport into the Sandbox given her vaccination records were not 'exactly' the same as the name in her Thai passport.

 

We went yesterday to MTT to extend her stay for a year. All that was needed was her Thai ID card, and a copy of the house registration. In and out in about 10 mins. Easy as pie and automatic.  The visa you are needing for the kids is outlined in the following link.

 

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-ancestry-visas/

Edited September 2, 2021 by CLCAsia

[skatewash]

8 minutes ago, CLCAsia said:

My mother had a similar issue, and had to enter on her non-Thai passport into the Sanbox.

 

We went yesterday to MTT to extend her stay for a year. All that was needed was her Thai ID card, and a copy of the house registration. In and out in about 10 mins. Easy as pie and automatic.  The visa you are needing for the kids is outlined in the following link.

 

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-ancestry-visas/

That's an exceptional website, but I didn't know it also covered this issue.  Thanks for sharing.

[gamb00ler]

10 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

....snip....

 

Under normal condition a Thai can enter with a expired passport. But do to covid 19 it is no longer possible due to needing a valid passport to get a COE.

 

....snip.....

Last Sep. my wife was able to travel to Thailand with expired Thai passport.  The LA Thai Consulate issued her a Certificate of Identity (good for a single trip to Thailand) and the Consulate was also able to issue her COE based on that document.

[BritTim]

3 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Granting an extension on the basis of the applicant being a Thai national would be placing a restriction on the applicants basic rights under the constitution.

Perhaps so (though I never heard of a legal challenge on this). What is undeniable is that there is a specific extension of stay type "returning Thai national". This is a pretty clear proof that, unconstitutional or not, Thais who enter Thailand using a foreign passport must follow the rules for non Thais.

[cleopatra2]

9 hours ago, BritTim said:

Perhaps so (though I never heard of a legal challenge on this). What is undeniable is that there is a specific extension of stay type "returning Thai national". This is a pretty clear proof that, unconstitutional or not, Thais who enter Thailand using a foreign passport must follow the rules for non Thais.

I am only aware of an extension. Of Former Thai national and Thai parentage

Can you provide the relevant extension 

 

If Thai after follow the rules for aliens we are left in a situation where the immigration act permits deportation while the constitution prohibits. 

The constitution recognizes them as Thai nationals. Thus for the immigration act they are also Thai nationals and not subject to immigration controls as described in section 34 and 35 

Edited September 3, 2021 by cleopatra2

[cleopatra2]

9 hours ago, BritTim said:

Perhaps so (though I never heard of a legal challenge on this). What is undeniable is that there is a specific extension of stay type "returning Thai national". This is a pretty clear proof that, unconstitutional or not, Thais who enter Thailand using a foreign passport must follow the rules for non Thais.

I think you are referring to clause 2.23 in police order 327/2557. The criteria to make an application under this clause is :

 

In the case of a person who used to
have Thai nationality or whose parent is
or was of Thai nationality visiting
relatives or returning to his or her
original homeland:

 

Note it states for persons who used to have thai nationality. This is made more explicit in the evidence that needs to be supplied to support the application.

 

(1) Must have evidence that the applicant used to have Thai nationality or that his her
parent is or was of Thai nationality.

 

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Note it states for persons who used to have thai nationality. This is made more explicit in the evidence that needs to be supplied to support the application.

Having a Thai parent is enough to get the extension. A birth certificate will prove that. They are Thai from birth is what that means.

Having a expired Thai passport or a Thai ID will also be proof that they are Thai.

Situations like OP's children happen all the time and immigration issues the extensions.

I can assure you many people have gotten the extension and it is done all the time.

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Having a Thai parent is enough to get the extension. A birth certificate will prove that. They are Thai from birth is what that means.

Having a expired Thai passport or a Thai ID will also be proof that they are Thai.

Situations like OP's children happen all the time and immigration issues the extensions.

I can assure you many people have gotten the extension and it is done all the time.

That is exactly the issue.

Providing proof of their nationality, makes it an indisputable matter of fact under the immigration act that they are Thai nationals.

As Thai nationals they are not subjected to clause 34 or 35 of the immigration act.

With immigration accepting their status as Thai nationality , renders null any previous alien status   in force.

Edited September 3, 2021 by cleopatra2

[ubonjoe]

12 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

That is exactly the issue.

Providing proof of their nationality, makes it an indisputable matter of fact under the immigration act that they are Thai nationals.

As Thai nationals they are not subjected to clause 34 or 35 of the immigration act.

With immigration accepting their status as Thai nationality , renders null any previous alien status   in force.

Why is it an issue?

There is a very good reason for clause 23 of the immigration order for extensions. It has been the same for many years. It was in the orders done in 2006, 2008 and the current one issued in 2014 and probably all the previous ones.

The only time immigration gets involved with Thai nationality is when Thais are entering or leaving the country.

It is best to ignore some parts of the 42 year old immigration act. The Thai nationality act and constitutions have been revised or replaced several times since it was written.

Section 34 and 35 are under chapter 4 that is titled "Temporary Stay in the Kingdom".

[cleopatra2]

11 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Why is it an issue?

There is a very good reason for clause 23 of the immigration order for extensions. It has been the same for many years. It was in the orders done in 2006, 2008 and the current one issued in 2014 and probably all the previous ones.

The only time immigration gets involved with Thai nationality is when Thais are entering or leaving the country.

It is best to ignore some parts of the 42 year old immigration act. The Thai nationality act and constitutions have been revised or replaced several times since it was written.

Section 34 and 35 are under chapter 4 that is titled "Temporary Stay in the Kingdom".

 

The applicant  immigration status is a question of fact. On providing documentation to immigration satisfaction of Thai nationality, it becomes undisputable that the applicant is now Thai and cannot be considered an alien.

 

There is no provision in the immigration act to restrict a Thai national right to reside in the country.

By the applicant providing sufficient evidence of their Thai nationality to immigration changes the material facts.

 

A person of Thai nationality does not need permission to enter or reside in the country.

 

By immigration issuing a temporary permission of stay to a Thai national is denying that person the right to reside freely within the country.

It leads to a position where the person exists somewhere between being a Thai national and an alien, placing extra burdens on that person that do not apply to other Thai nationals.

[Eff1n2ret]

It seems to me that extensions issued under 2.23 of the Police Order are based on the fiction that applicants are no longer Thai nationals.

The wording is "In the case of a person who used to have Thai nationality or whose parent is or was of Thai nationality visiting relatives or returning to his or her original homeland."

Thailand seems to be a  bit uncomfortable with the concept of dual nationality, so situations like the OP's arise, compounded by the tendency of some immigration officers to apply their personal interpretations and prejudices. A few years back a Thai lady who had lived in the UK for 30 years, never been back to Thailand, came to stay with us a couple of times. The first time she visited on her UK passport, but applied for and obtained a Thai passport, intending to stay longer the next time. Arriving at Suvarnabhumi on the second occasion she was unwise enough to show the IO both her passports. He declined to admit her on her Thai passport on the grounds that it contained no evidence of travel or any endorsements showing her status in the UK, and insisted on stamping her UK passport for 30 days as a visitor. She went to immigration locally and they gave her a year under 2.23, which suited her at the time. They advised her not to show her UK passport at Thai borders.

If I were the OP I would just ignore the visit stamps in his kid's passports.

[OJAS]

15 hours ago, BritTim said:

This is a pretty clear proof that, unconstitutional or not, Thais who enter Thailand using a foreign passport must follow the rules for non Thais.

So this presumably means that they are subject to the 90-day reporting requirement until such time as they exit Thailand on their foreign passport, then, does it not?

 

And, were they to overstay for a significant period on their foreign passport, not only, I take it, would they then be liable to a 20,000 THB fine but also to a ban from re-entering Thailand, despite their dual citizenship (on the premise that their foreign and Thai passports are somehow linked with each other)!

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by OJAS

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

And, were they to overstay for a significant period on their foreign passport, not only, I take it, would they then be liable to a 20,000 THB fine but also to a ban from re-entering Thailand, despite their dual citizenship (on the premise that their foreign and Thai passports are somehow linked with each other)!

I think the fine might be waived, though I think they are in theory liable for it. As far as the ban from entering is concerned, they may be banned from entering in the future as an alien. They would still be able to enter as Thai nationals.

[Sydebolle]

On 9/2/2021 at 6:28 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

Not every Thai male has to go through the conscription process, it can be avoided by their taking advantage of the "Cadet" scheme that Thai schools offer, if they complete that, they are not eligible for conscription. 

I understand that they live in the UK ....... 

[mattk1]

Hello everyone,

 

Thank you all for the replies, information and advice - I didn't expect this many helpful replies! What a fantastic forum! ????

 

So we were due to go to immigration last Friday but in the days leading to our trip I became quite sick with some fever (not Covid thankfully) and was in bed feeling like rubbish for the best part of a week. Apologies for the delay updating my post.

 

So this morning I read back over all the replies here and with that knowledge we headed to immigration. After explaining the situation, filling out a few forms (one form specifically for information relating to my wife's Tabien Bahn book which luckily we had with us), the immigration officer issued my kids a one year visa at a cost of 1,900 Baht each. Job done. ????

 

As for me, I was also granted a 60 day stay based on Covid situation, with the possibility of more Covid extensions if Covid remains a hinderance to our return home to the UK (cost 1,900 Baht). Failing that, the immigration officer said that if not based on Covid, I have the option of an extension based on staying with my wife. So got a bit of breathing space while we wait to see what happens with the Thailand and the UK's red list situation.

 

So for anyone reading this in the future who finds themselves in this situation - don't be like me and think that you can just switch passports once inside the country, it's not possible. I still think that's crazy but thems the rules. ????

 

Thank you once again to everyone who replied with help, advice and information - most grateful! ???? 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 9/2/2021 at 5:44 PM, flexomike said:

you can enter Thailand on an expired Thai passport

Perhaps at other times, but not at present when you need a CoE to get in. The CoE system will not accept an expired passport - as soon as you input the passport number it comes back with an error message and you can't go any further.

[mattk1]

5 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Perhaps at other times, but not at present when you need a CoE to get in. The CoE system will not accept an expired passport - as soon as you input the passport number it comes back with an error message and you can't go any further.

Yep, normally wouldn't have been an issue but because we had to do everything quickly, the kids Emergency passports didn't arrive till the last minute so it was too late to use them on the Certificate of Entry forms. I wish I knew all this before ha ha.. cheers ????