Chanote Copy not at Land Office

[dinga]

Understand it is usual that the land owner holds the original Chanote and a duplicate copy is held at the Land Office.

 

We are interested in a particular block and have asked the owner to see the Chanote - still waiting.  Separately, we have been told the Land Office does not have/cannot locate the duplicate copy.

 

Seems very strange to me (perhaps I'm overly suspicious) - any ideas about the implications - especially what happens if a deal is agreed and we turn up at the Land Office to transfer ownership?

  

 

[Soapy 100]

check the banks out, they would have the chanote if money is owed.

DONT hand any money over till your satisfied everything is in order

[blackcab]

It's actually the other way around. The Land Office has the original and the person named on the title deed holds the copy.

 

If the deed is old then it is possible it has been renumbered/resequenced. When this happens the title deed can sometimes get slightly misfiled in the new sequence, which means a more thorough search will be needed to find it. This has happened to me once before and it took an hour or so for the Land Office to find the missing deed.

 

That being said, all NS4 chanotes have been digitised, and all the relevant particulars are held on the Land Office computer systems.

 

However, if the buyer wants to sell the land they must appear with their title deed on the day of the sale, unless the property is mortgaged, when a representative of the bank will appear with the title deed.

 

No deed, no sale. That is absolutely final. If the deed has been lost by the seller, then the seller will have to go through the process of obtaining a duplicate title deed from the Land Office. This can take some time.

[BKKBike09]

Also make sure that the name of the owner on the chanote matches the name of the person selling. Sometimes Person A sells to Person B, but Person B doesn't want to pay the transfer fees so takes the chanote but doesn't register the transfer. You have to pay whoever is listed on the chanote even if there's a sale and purchase contract between Person A and Person B showing that A has paid B in full for the land on X date.

 

What Land Office? If Phuket or Samui, be particularly wary because of issues with non-development zone land illegally used for building and re-titled with "assistance" from the local Land Office.

 

There's a good online system for looking up chanote on Land Dept web site: if you have the title number etc you can search for the plot.

 

https://landsmaps.dol.go.th/

 

 

[Peterw42]

25 minutes ago, dinga said:

what happens if a deal is agreed and we turn up at the Land Office to transfer ownership?

Ownership will not be transferred unless the land office agrees (from their records) that the owner is the owner, its legal tile, can be sold etc.

[dinga]

1 hour ago, BKKBike09 said:

Also make sure that the name of the owner on the chanote matches the name of the person selling. Sometimes Person A sells to Person B, but Person B doesn't want to pay the transfer fees so takes the chanote but doesn't register the transfer. You have to pay whoever is listed on the chanote even if there's a sale and purchase contract between Person A and Person B showing that A has paid B in full for the land on X date.

 

What Land Office? If Phuket or Samui, be particularly wary because of issues with non-development zone land illegally used for building and re-titled with "assistance" from the local Land Office.

 

There's a good online system for looking up chanote on Land Dept web site: if you have the title number etc you can search for the plot.

 

https://landsmaps.dol.go.th/

 

 

Thanks for all the responses - especially great advice from blackcab and BKKBike09.

 

Land is in Rayong, so hopefully there shouldn't be a high risk of illegality (unlike Samui and some other places).

 

The "seller" sent us a screen shot from the DOL link - which while useful (shows a recorded Owner and a Chanote Number) doesn't replace the surety from seeing the actual  Chanote. 

 

We won't proceed unless the Chanote is produced (I'm kind of expecting that there is a mortgage involved, and the document is with a Bank).  

 

[LongTimeLurker]

3 hours ago, dinga said:

Seems very strange to me (perhaps I'm overly suspicious) - any ideas about the implications - especially what happens if a deal is agreed and we turn up at the Land Office to transfer ownership?

Don't worry, those nice people at the Land Office will be able to sort out any problems for you for an appropriate fee.

[inThailand]

The only title to trust is a Land Office original and your attorney should get a certified copy from them. The one a seller is holding may not be up to date, ie show the current owner, a loan, etc. 

 

Then a copy of the dated certified copy can be an addendum to the Sale and Purchase agreement. 

Edited September 20, 2021 by inThailand

[Peterw42]

This isnt a difficult exercise. The Land office keeps the records for property ownership, end of story. The Chanote is a representation of those records. Possession of a chanote isn't property ownership, a lost or missing chanote does not mean a property is not still owned.

 

A chanote,  no chanote,  or a pink polka dot chanote. if it doesn't match the land office records, a sale, purchase, transfer, claim of ownership etc doesn't happen.

 

 

[brianthainess]

22 hours ago, dinga said:

We won't proceed unless the Chanote is produced (I'm kind of expecting that there is a mortgage involved, and the document is with a Bank)

I agree probably hocked with a bank or worse a loan shark ! 

[Sydebolle]

I've done a fair number of deals and the rule is extremely simple. 

Show up with banker's cheques in accordance with a preceding agreement:

xx % of the sum in the name of the bank (if a bank loan to the seller needs to get cleared); for this insist that a representative of the bank is present with the bank's paperwork on the loan as well 
xx % of the sum in the name of the seller, according to the land title deed

And eventually: 
xx %  of the sum in cash for your share of the transfer fees, if any

Hand over these cheques only at the Land Department upon completion, i.e. ownership on the land title deed to your ownership choice. 

The original is with the seller, a "carbon copy" of it is with the Land Department as well as a Cadastral plan which allows to get the details of all those owners neighboring the land title deed in question. For copies of either, land title deed or cadastral plan, a Thai citizen needs to file the request against presentation of ID card and a nominal fee of a few hundred Baht. 

Good luck and if the deal has a stale aftertaste of murkiness - walk! 

[DefaultName]

I bought last year.  Used a solicitor so that I could be certain everything was above board.  Perhaps you should too.

[khunPer]

On 9/19/2021 at 4:17 AM, blackcab said:

That being said, all NS4 chanotes have been digitised, and all the relevant particulars are held on the Land Office computer systems.

NS4 - i.e. Nor Sor Sarm See - is the only title deed with the name "Chanote" - all deeds are title deeds with various titles...????

 

You can find the list of titles HERE.

 

On 9/19/2021 at 3:55 AM, dinga said:

We are interested in a particular block and have asked the owner to see the Chanote - still waiting.  Separately, we have been told the Land Office does not have/cannot locate the duplicate copy.

If the land office don't have a copy of the title deed, especially when it's Chanote title - I would be suspicious, very suspicious...????

[watboy]

You ultimately protect yourself by completing the transaction at the land register's office. As others mention, the land register is the ultimate determiner of who owns the property. The seller needs to bring all his necessary documentation, you need to bring a lawyer, payment and your documentation. Asking to see deeds in advance of this protects you from wasting time. If you are taking a mortgage, then your mortgage bank will handle it, they will make sure the sale is properly completed and then get their mortgage registered and then take the chanote.

[chalawaan]

On 9/19/2021 at 9:29 AM, Peterw42 said:

Ownership will not be transferred unless the land office agrees (from their records) that the owner is the owner, its legal tile, can be sold etc.

Peter, do you recommend engaging a property lawyer? Are they mandatory in a condo selling or transfer process, and what's a rough guesstimate of their fees if everything is fairly straightforward. Thanks.

[scubascuba3]

4 hours ago, chalawaan said:

Peter, do you recommend engaging a property lawyer? Are they mandatory in a condo selling or transfer process, and what's a rough guesstimate of their fees if everything is fairly straightforward. Thanks.

Most people don't use one, but you need to understand the process. You can ask a lawyer for a list of what they do and how much, they will probably balk at that

[Peterw42]

6 hours ago, chalawaan said:

Peter, do you recommend engaging a property lawyer? Are they mandatory in a condo selling or transfer process, and what's a rough guesstimate of their fees if everything is fairly straightforward. Thanks.

You don't need a lawyer for a straightforward foreign quota condo sale/purchase.

You would need a lawyer if you are setting up a company. lease. usufruct etc