Electric vehicles of all kinds

[LarrySR]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

In any event, I'm still waiting for those links to the daily press releases you claimed the oil companies put out daily. I'm starting to think you were just making it up. You weren't lying when you said that were you? 

You climate change deniers are funny.
See you over in the ‘masks and vaccine don’t work’ thread. 

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

That's true, but the most expensive component of the vehicles the batteries,  will start degrading with in years reducing your effective range, and are projected to lose viability with in 100,000  miles . especially in a hot climate such as Thailand.  Batteries accounted for around 37% of total vehicle costs as of today . To be fair battery costs are declining and are projected to be about 20% of the total cost of a vehicle by 2030.

Imagine if there was an ICE vehicle that had projected repair costs of 37% of its initial cost with in its first 100k miles. No one would buy it. It would be the worst ICE vehicle in the market. 

Don't get me wrong, I think EVs are the future, but IMO, from an economics point of view are not there yet. 

 

As cited above, Consumer Reports, which is an aggressive advocate for consumers and no shill for corporate interests, estimates the average life to be 200,000 miles. And as you noted, battery costs are declining. Also, those batteries will have a resale value since even when they are no longer fit for cars, once their capacity falls below 80%, they can be incorporated as storage devices in the grid. Or recycled.

[The Hammer2021]

30 to 40k for 3 wheeler motorcycle style scooter at makro

[LarrySR]

Breaking news: Engineers at Mahle Co. have developed batteries that are easily recycled, have increased power density offering 100,000 ultra fast charging cycles. 
Since they charge in 90 seconds, manufacturers can install smaller, lighter and cheaper pacs. 
 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by LarrySR

[seedy]

1 hour ago, LarrySR said:

What about the transmission and engine in a gas car? You think they last longer than battery pac?

Show me one electric vehicle that has lasted as below.

This has been demonstrated many times - ICE vehicles with over 500,000 miles on them, 100% stock. Never been opened.

I rode in one here with over 700,000 km

Those who follow "Electric Jesus" just do not understand this.

And where are all these solid state batteries ?

On the drawing boards, and in the minds of the mindless

[seedy]

43 minutes ago, LarrySR said:

You climate change deniers are funny.
See you over in the ‘masks and vaccine don’t work’ thread. 

So - no backup to what you have quoted previously ?

 

[seedy]

45 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As cited above, Consumer Reports, which is an aggressive advocate for consumers and no shill for corporate interests, estimates the average life to be 200,000 miles. And as you noted, battery costs are declining. Also, those batteries will have a resale value since even when they are no longer fit for cars, once their capacity falls below 80%, they can be incorporated as storage devices in the grid. Or recycled.

You better look into the meaning of estimates.

As well as how many batteries are recycled.

Not very many. I posted links to this before.

 

And all this "Estimates, on the drawing board, research is ongoing, yada yada yada"

Means nothing. Until they are in production, and economically viable, all you are doing is blowing smoke.

[seedy]

36 minutes ago, The Hammer2021 said:

30 to 40k for 3 wheeler motorcycle style scooter at makro

There is your 500,000 mile battery powered machine - no doubt about it. And for only $1000 - 555

[sirineou]

54 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As cited above, Consumer Reports, which is an aggressive advocate for consumers and no shill for corporate interests, estimates the average life to be 200,000 miles. And as you noted, battery costs are declining. Also, those batteries will have a resale value since even when they are no longer fit for cars, once their capacity falls below 80%, they can be incorporated as storage devices in the grid. Or recycled.

There will be a resale value if the manufacturer of the vehicle will buy back the batteries at a preset residual value, If not , the batteries will only have a value if there is a demand in the market for them at the time. Which is hard to tell because by that time they will be dated technology. And it's hard to believe with millions of EVs coming on line that there will be a demand that  at the very least meet the supply. The best solution IMO will be not to own the batteries, and for them not to be recharged by the end user but swapped for charged ones . and recharged at the swapping station. As it is being done in China by Geely.  Which would also eliminate range anxiety. But unfortunately we are a far way from that in Thailand . 

As to the battery life , the operative word is "Average" in hot climates such as Thailand the longevity   substantially declines, heat being the killer of present technology batteries.  

So to make an economic comparison let's take the MG ZS, The middle of the range ICE version is 739,000, ( to be fair I am not taking the least expensive model)  and the EV is 1,190,000 a discrepancy of 451,000.  (451k will buy you a lot of gas)

IMO it will take a very long time to recoup that 451k premium.  and with a 4 year 120k mi warranty , there should be no major mechanical expenses, other than regular maintenance. until the batteries of the EV version are about due for replacement. 

My Toyota corolla in the US , I sold with 180 k miles without having put a penny in it other than brakes, tires, and oil changes. Oh and I changed a battery LOL. 

I am not anti EV , in fact I am very much for them, but at this point and time , in Thailand, I don't think they are a financially viable option, In 5-10 years my next  car might very well be an EV. but for now and with only one car. Not economically or driving range viable IMO. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by sirineou

[seedy]

5 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I am not anti EV , in fact I am very much for them, but at this point and time I don't think they are a financially viable option, In 5-10 years my next  car might very well be an EV. but for now and with only one car. Not economically or driving range viable IMO. 

As am I.

Would like to try one.

The infrastructure is just not even close to being in place for all those cars now, especially here. Not to mention the economics don't work.

As I said before - city driving in BKK, if you have your own house, is doable now.

Anything else is down the pike a fair ways.

 

[Yellowtail]

I had an '89 Ford Festiva in the '90s. I think I bought it in '91 and it had 40K miles. I owned it about six years and put another 140K miles on it and it as still going strong when I sold it. It got 39mi/gal on the highway. Changed the oil every 10K, put brakes on it once, (had to change the pads  couple more times, but I bought lifetime pads so got them free) one battery and a few sets of tires. Changed the timing belt and plugs at 100K but the belt and plugs looked new so that was a waist of time and money. 

 

The tires for it were the ones that they show in the tire ads, I got a set of four once for $59 at PepBoys...

[placeholder]

19 minutes ago, seedy said:

You better look into the meaning of estimates.

As well as how many batteries are recycled.

Not very many. I posted links to this before.

 

And all this "Estimates, on the drawing board, research is ongoing, yada yada yada"

Means nothing. Until they are in production, and economically viable, all you are doing is blowing smoke.

And all those billions and billions of dollar  of investment  by major auto manufacturers and others are just smoke, too? Renewable energy and energy storage developments consistently outperform predictions.

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, seedy said:

As am I.

Would like to try one.

The infrastructure is just not even close to being in place for all those cars now, especially here. Not to mention the economics don't work.

As I said before - city driving in BKK, if you have your own house, is doable now.

Anything else is down the pike a fair ways.

 

In a big city , and if you only had one car, If one wanted to go that route, I think a PHEV is a better option at this time. 

Most of the daily city driving you will do will be with in it's EV range, and for those occasional longer trips, you can use the hybrid combination. But again you have two problems, One is additional purchasing cost premium , which as we said  would buy you a lot of gas. And the other problem is the reduced cargo capacity because of the batteries in the back. The Mitsubishi outlander is a seven seater, but the  PHEV is a 5 seater because of the batteries in the back. 

Trust me, I want an EV , but any way I looked at it, it did not make any sense right now.

[Yellowtail]

10 minutes ago, seedy said:

As am I.

Would like to try one.

The infrastructure is just not even close to being in place for all those cars now, especially here. Not to mention the economics don't work.

As I said before - city driving in BKK, if you have your own house, is doable now.

Anything else is down the pike a fair ways.

 

As far as Bangkok, I wonder how long the AC will blow cold before you're walking? We're getting spoiled with covid traffic, but I can remember in years past spending hours in traffic. 

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And all those billions and billions of dollar  of investment  by major auto manufacturers and others are just smoke, too? Renewable energy and energy storage developments consistently outperform predictions.

Do you not think governments effectively and outright mandating they build electric vehicles has a lot to do with it? 

[Yellowtail]

With the tremendous advancements in battery technology,  why are most new cars shipping with lead-acid batteries? 

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

With the tremendous advancements in battery technology,  why are most new cars shipping with lead-acid batteries? 

Because they are less expensive, and lead acid batteries is s all you need to start a car.  

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

With the tremendous advancements in battery technology,  why are most new cars shipping with lead-acid batteries? 

Maybe because you don't need  a battery with much energy density to start a car. To put it another way, did you ever ask yourself why no EV's, apart maybe for golf carts, tuktuks, and such,  are not equipped with lead acid batteries?

[Yellowtail]

51 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Maybe because you don't need  a battery with much energy density to start a car. To put it another way, did you ever ask yourself why no EV's, apart maybe for golf carts, tuktuks, and such,  are not equipped with lead acid batteries?

I think over half the EVs in production ship with lead acid. 

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I think over half the EVs in production ship with lead acid. 

The most common battery type in modern electric vehicles are lithium-ion and lithium polymer, because of their high energy density compared to their weight. Other types of rechargeable batteries used in electric vehicles include lead–acid ("flooded", deep-cycle, and valve regulated lead acid), nickel-cadmium, nickel–metal hydride, and, less commonly, zinc–air, and sodium nickel chloride ("zebra") batteries.^[1] The amount of electricity (i.e. electric charge) stored in batteries is measured in ampere hours or in coulombs, with the total energy often measured in kilowatt-hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_battery#Lead-acid

Lead acid batteries hold a small fraction of the charge that a lithium based battery can hold. They are no longer significant in the EV world.

[placeholder]

On 10/8/2021 at 8:20 AM, KhunLA said:

You might want to actually do a wee bit of research before posting.  Volvo makes cars, trucks, and apparently excavators in the USA.  Can't fault a company for maximizing profits and staying in business, providing jobs worldwide.

https://imakeamerica.com/?s=volvo

http://tiny.cc/dd1kuz

The "Made in ??? " home country BS is just that....BS.   Provide the best product for the best price.   If you had to only purchase and use products / food, made & produced in your home country, you'd be screwed for any choice or competition, and things would be outrageously expensive.

 

Auto industry in USA is prime example, of the c r a p they produced until foreign competition arrived.  Then to complete, the USA auto makers simply rebranded imports for themselves.  Unions priced themselves out of jobs, along with millionaire executives.  Competition is a beautiful thing.  Welcome it.  Businesses fail because of mismanagement, and no other reason.

You also might want to do a bit of research. Volvo sold only its automobile business to the Chinese. It' still makes trucks and other heavy machinery.

"The Volvo Group (Swedish: Volvokoncernen; legally Aktiebolaget Volvo, shortened to AB Volvo, stylized as VOLVO) is a Swedish multinational manufacturing corporation headquartered in Gothenburg. While its core activity is the production, distribution and sale of trucks, buses and construction equipment, Volvo also supplies marine and industrial drive systems and financial services. In 2016, it was the world's second largest manufacturer of heavy-duty trucks.[4]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo

[placeholder]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:49 PM, Yellowtail said:

 

This was an interesting video, but I do not think the biggest problem with EVs is disposing of the old batteries, but rather that batteries have to be charged. We will still have to burn fossil fuel to generate the electricity to charge the batteries. Renewables may work in rural areas, but not in urban areas where the bulk of the load is. 

 

The video asked if recycling batteries will ultimately eliminate mining raw materials. I believe there is no way recycling can possibly eliminate or even greatly reduce mining, until significantly more old batteries are being recycled, than there are new batteries being produced. Apparently none of the recycling processes are economically viable enough to process even pre-consumer scrap, which means that recycled batteries will cost significantly more than batteries made from raw materials.  Given that, I believe it safe to assume the "plan" will be to mandate all cars be EV, then mandate all batteries be produced using recycled materials, which will make the batteries so expensive that only the rich people that push for the mandates will be able to afford them. 

 

Perfect!

 

Did you watch the video? He specifically says that Redwood Materials , by far the biggest recycle, is already profitable at the unit level. And that "mining" batteries is cheaper than mining the minerals because of the high concentration of metals in the scrap and the savings on transportation.

[KhunLA]

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by KhunLA

[LarrySR]

In only its second full year in production, Porsche's first electric model, Taycan  is starting to outsell its longtime flagship sports car, the 911.

It's the latest sign that electric vehicles, which have made up a tiny fraction of global vehicle sales for years, are gaining traction.

Porsche sold 28,640 Taycans worldwide during the first nine months of 2021, the company said Friday. It delivered 27,972 911s over that period. 

[seedy]

13 hours ago, placeholder said:

This article was written in 2015

Thank you for giving more strength to my post.

In 2015 - 6 years ago - they said they are coming.

And still not here.

Oh, I forgot - "In Development, we are working on, soon we will have, it is estimated ..."

EV's with 200,000 km life - ? Charge in 90 seconds ?

 

Kinda like - "We are working on manned flights to Mars. It is in development. Stay tuned"

[seedy]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

 

 

There is that pesky word again - "Estimate"

As Tom Cruise said - "Show me the Money"

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, seedy said:

Thank you for giving more strength to my post.

In 2015 - 6 years ago - they said they are coming.

And still not here.

Oh, I forgot - "In Development, we are working on, soon we will have, it is estimated ..."

EV's with 200,000 km life - ? Charge in 90 seconds ?

 

Kinda like - "We are working on manned flights to Mars. It is in development. Stay tuned"

I don't know what you think you are referring to in the article I cited. Where did it say "they are coming" or anything like that And what is this "they" you are referring to. Why are you making things up? The article was about how lithium ion battery development is way ahead of predictions made just a few years ago. 

[LarrySR]

20 minutes ago, seedy said:

Thank you for giving more strength to my post.

In 2015 - 6 years ago - they said they are coming.

And still not here.

Oh, I forgot - "In Development, we are working on, soon we will have, it is estimated ..."

EV's with 200,000 km life - ? Charge in 90 seconds ?

 

Kinda like - "We are working on manned flights to Mars. It is in development. Stay tuned"

Didn't you notice, the gas engine in your buddies car with 700,000km on the clock went thru 120 years of development? 

These Fox viewers that consume a steady drip feeding of fossil fuel propaganda just crack me up.

[placeholder]

12 hours ago, seedy said:

Show me one electric vehicle that has lasted as below.

This has been demonstrated many times - ICE vehicles with over 500,000 miles on them, 100% stock. Never been opened.

I rode in one here with over 700,000 km

Those who follow "Electric Jesus" just do not understand this.

And where are all these solid state batteries ?

On the drawing boards, and in the minds of the mindless

This is your idea of valid evidence? You think it's reasonable to accept alleged evidence about a few cars offered by an anonymous poster on the internet? Where do you publish the results of your research? The Journal of Because I Said So? And even if it's true, so what? You think statistical outliers are significant?. What don't you understand about such obvious points?

 

[seedy]

22 minutes ago, LarrySR said:

Didn't you notice, the gas engine in your buddies car with 700,000km on the clock went thru 120 years of development? 

These Fox viewers that consume a steady drip feeding of fossil fuel propaganda just crack me up.

It is a diesel Isuzu

Maybe do some research - oil and gas production is way way more than just gasoline and diesel fuel.