Phuket immigration very strict on retirement extension requirements

[Chad3000]

Thanks.

 

Moving from Bangkok in two years. Just another reminder to absolutely forget Phuket.

 

I've traveled all over the south and know it well. I've only been thru the province on a bus once otlr twice. Once had to overnight near bus station.

 

No way Somchai

[xylophone]

4 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

He should have made a small deposit into the account on the day of his application.

 

If you are referring to my friend whose application was refused, then why on earth would he need to put money into an account in which he had 900k for the full year, as well as statements from his other everyday account which showed that he had spent over a million baht, with transfers coming in from overseas and multiple withdrawal transactions here?

 

Simply doesn't make sense?

[piston broke]

For the last 10 years i have used an agent (pattaya) to renew my retirement extension ...

 

I have the 800,000b in the bank, btw .....

 

They charge 8,000b in total (which includes the 1,900b immigration charge)

 

I go to their office with my bank book and they put a few papers in front of me which i sign and hand over the dosh ... The following day i go back and collect the passport with the next years stamp and the 1900b immigration receipt ....

 

Seems money well spent for zero stress  - the price also includes them doing all the 90 day reporting (drop passport off at their office in the morning, collect pm the next day) .....

 

If i need a residence cert - call at their office with photo / passport and hand over 500 baht (200b more than immigration charge) and collect passport / certificate pm the next day ....

 

 

 

[Raindancer]

3 hours ago, skatewash said:

The requirements for getting a retirement extension of stay at Phuket Immigration are very strictly enforced.  So I make my life easier by finding out what the requirements are and following them strictly.  I find it very helpful to use the website set up by the Phuket Immigration Volunteers that contains very good information about what is required in order to get all sorts of extensions of stay including the retirement extension.

http://piv-phuket.com/long-stay-extensions/retirement/

 

For years Phuket Immigration has required two (2) documents from your Thai bank.  One is the standard letter that shows you are the owner of a bank account, details of the account, and the balance on the date the letter is written.  The second is a signed/stamped bank account statement for twelve (12) months.  I forget how much these two documents cost but is in the range of 200-300 baht depending on the Thai bank involved.  Note that some banks (notably, Bangkok Bank) cannot produce a 12-month bank statement on the spot but have to send the request to Bangkok Bank headquarters and it can take a week to actually receive that 12-month bank statement due to this.  So knowing this I try to apply for my retirement extension 45 days before my permission to stay expires.  Why wouldn't you want to do this earlier rather than later?  You have time on your side if there are any problems.

These are the requirements (as can be confirmed by reading the earlier link).  However, I usually try to understand the reason these are the requirements.  So what follows is my understanding of why we are asked to do what we are asked to do when proving that we have 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account for 12 months. 

The standard bank letter establishes that the bank account exists, is in our name only, and that we are the owner of it.  The 12-month bank statement establishes that we have complied with the minimum balance requirements.  The minimum balance requirement for a banked lump sum method are as follows:

• At least 800k in the bank account for two (2) months prior to application for extension
• At least 800k in the bank account for three (3) months after application for extension
• At least 400k in the bank account for the rest of the year.

So, the 12-month bank statement is the means by which an immigration officer can determine if you followed these requirements.  But why is a bank signed/stamped bank statement required rather than just copies of pages in your bank account passbook?  I mean, aren't they the same?  Actually they are only the same if you have updated your bank passbook on a regular basis.  If you haven't then it is possible to get Combined Transactions in your passbook.  Combined transactions include numerous transactions that occurred without your passbook being updated.  The Combined transaction entry shows the net effect of all those undocumented transactions on your bank balance.  It is impossible to determine from this entry whether your bank balance dipped below the minimum balance requirements.  That is why they insist on a 12-month bank statement. 

Even then, they often want to see your bank passbook.  Sometimes, often actually, they will want to see signed copies of your passbook covering the last 12 months.  Why is this?  When you are trying to assess the validity of evidence you look at multiple sources for that evidence.  The standard bank letter says the balance on the date the letter was issued was such and such.  Does the bank statement say the same thing?  Does the bank passbook say the same thing?  The bank statement says that the balance never dipped below the minimum balances.  Does the bank book confirm that? 

I look at this process as getting the immigration officer to a place where he or she has a warm and fuzzy feeling that the evidence you present is valid.  Could it all be faked?  Of course.  There is nothing that can't be faked (including passports and true love).  But how difficult, how much work is it, to fake three separate things:  signed/stamped bank letter, signed/stamped bank statement, bank passbook? 

So, what happened to your friend?  I suspect he didn't bother to check the requirements for the retirement extension at the Phuket Immigration Volunteer's site.  I suspect he didn't notice that a 12-month bank statement is a requirement for Phuket Immigration retirement extensions (and has been for at least a few years).  I suspect that had he gone back to his Thai bank and obtained the 12-month bank statement he was supposed to have all along (it's one of the requirements) he might have gotten his extension approved.

You do NOT have to bring money into Thailand according to the rules for the monthly deposit method (65,000 baht/month every month), IF you are doing the lump-sum banked money method (800,000 baht in the account, subject to minimum balance requirements).  He would have known that if he had familiarized himself with the requirements.  Did he get a garbled, confusing, explanation from the immigration officers as to why he was being refused an extension?  Probably.  That's why your understanding of the process needs to be as good as an immigration officer, so you can comprehend what in the world they are trying to tell you.  So you can understand what the issues are, what their concerns are.

Also, it needs to be said that immigration officers can ask you any question they want to inform their assessment of whether you are going to get a retirement extension or not.  For example if your bank balances meet all the minimum balance requirements it's still in their investigative purview to ask questions like what are you living on?  Where does it come from?  Do you work in Thailand?  Sometimes they will ask to see a bank account that you are not using to meet the requirement for the extension to see what you are living on.  For example, my account for immigration purpose shows very little activity.  The money just sits there, earning interest every month.  I rarely put money in, I rarely take money out.  If that's all I show to the immigration officer it could raise the question about what I am living on.  For that, I have another account that shows money being transferred in on an irregular basis with international labeling.  Money being withdrawn on an irregular basis to pay my day to day expenses.  Money being debited by my internet provider, electricity provider, etc.  I usually will make copies of that bank passbook in case they want to see that.

To paraphrase Jerry McGuire, you need to help the immigration officers help you.  It's in your interest.  The easier their job is the easier it is for me to get what I want, a retirement extension.

Or you can pay 22,000 baht to an agent and they can do what you couldn't do.  The agent likes this and the immigration officers like this as they get part of that 22,000 baht.  It's a win-win situation.  Except I wouldn't be happy paying 22,000 for something that I know should cost exactly 1,900.  But it's Thailand, so up to you. ????

Excellent post and explanation of why immigration needs bank statements to verify balances and any withdrawals below requirements.

[ThailandRyan]

4 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Would a bank account with the 800k in it not have any transactions to show in the bank book?

Not a fixed deposit account if you used one. It would only have your annual update and then the update done on the day going to immigration.  If it's a regular passbook they want monthly statements to ensure it never drops below the alliwed 400k/800k during the year and they will go line by line through the bank book.

[KarenBravo]

44 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

He should have made a small deposit into the account on the day of his application.

 

That's what I do.

[Chris.B]

40 minutes ago, xylophone said:

If you are referring to my friend whose application was refused, then why on earth would he need to put money into an account in which he had 900k for the full year, as well as statements from his other everyday account which showed that he had spent over a million baht, with transfers coming in from overseas and multiple withdrawal transactions here?

 

Simply doesn't make sense?

His statements from his 'other' account doesn't mean anything to immigration. The account will be disregarded because it does not have 800,000 baht in it.

 

Immigration want to see the account with 800,000 baht as live which you can do as I describe by putting a small deposit in on the day of the application. Also you need 3 months statements, copies of the bank book, and the atm slip from the deposit that day. Ohh, and you need the letter from the bank described as another poster has stated.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Chris.B

[KannikaP]

Do the IOs expect you to have 800k in a bank account PLUS show monthly deposits of money to live on?

If so, forget the 800k and just transfer 65k a month and show Mr IO that you spend most or all of it.

[KarenBravo]

37 minutes ago, xylophone said:

If you are referring to my friend whose application was refused, then why on earth would he need to put money into an account in which he had 900k for the full year, as well as statements from his other everyday account which showed that he had spent over a million baht, with transfers coming in from overseas and multiple withdrawal transactions here?

 

Simply doesn't make sense?

You don't have to deposit on the day you go to immigration. You can withdraw 100Bt if you want. Just so long as there is an entry in your bank account for that day.

 

[KannikaP]

2 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

His statements from his 'other' account doesn't mean anything to immigration. The account will be disregarded because it does not have 800,000 baht in it.

 

Immigration want to see the account with 800,000 baht as live which you can do as I describe by putting a small deposit in on the day of the application. Also you need 3 months statements, copies of the bank book, and the atm slip from the deposit that day.

 

 

Not if the 800k is in a fixed term account....the sum cannot be added to. And if, like me, it is in a Foreign Currency account, I can only withdraw from that without doing a GBP transfer in GBPs. As for the ATM slip you mention, are you suggesting going to an ATM, taking out Bht1000 and then putting it back? Why not do it via online banking, and then go to update your bankbook. 

[KannikaP]

4 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

You don't have to deposit on the day you go to immigration. You can withdraw 100Bt if you want. Just so long as there is an entry in your bank account for that day.

 

So do an online transfer, to the Mrs or anyone, then print out the online statement.

[xylophone]

2 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

His statements from his 'other' account doesn't mean anything to immigration. The account will be disregarded because it does not have 800,000 baht in it.

I must be missing something here or we are talking cross purposes, because he had the required 800k baht in a Thai bank account (900k actually) as requested by immigration.

 

Then he had his everyday transactional account which contains the money upon which he uses to live here, with incoming transactions from overseas, and he withdraws money from this using his ATM card.

 

As far as I am aware, the above satisfies the requirements of immigration, or as I said, am I missing something, apart from a brain cell or two?

1 minute ago, KarenBravo said:

You don't have to deposit on the day you go to immigration. You can withdraw 100Bt if you want. Just so long as there is an entry in your bank account for that day.

KB.....see above response.

[Kopitiam]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

On Monday I go to my bank to get a statement for 12 months worth of my everyday banking account, and also a statement for the 12 months during which my 800k has been languishing in its account and will see how that goes.

 

As I said previously I am quite prepared to pay 20k plus to an agent to get round this hassle, because one never knows what's going to happen, and just to show you what I mean, the following has happened to me at immigration: –

 

I had a new passport and some details needed to be entered into it, from the old passport (or something like that, because it was more than 10 years ago) and the I/O tried to charge me 500 baht for doing it, and I queried that and he was most put out.

 

So just to show who was the boss, he asked for every copy of every bank book I'd had since I had been here, so I had to go back home to my home in Patong to get this.

 

When I presented this to him, he then asked for a copy of every page of my passport, even the blank pages, so I had to go outside to the copy shop to get that done, and of course every time I came back in for what ever he wanted, I had to stand in the queue again.

 

Eventually after he has shown who was the boss, everything went ahead WITHOUT the 500 baht cost.

Then just three or four years ago, I was using the 400k in the bank and regular monthly deposits from overseas banks, which totalled more than 900k, and it did mean a little more paperwork and the addition of the deposits to make sure they added up correctly, however after scrutinising all of that paperwork, the I/O looked up at me and said in a gruff tone, "next year put all money in the bank".

 

So as you can imagine, I haven't had the best of runs with these people, even though I barely say anything when I'm there, never argue and always smile, and of course dress smartly.

 

As someone else has suggested, it's a control thing IMO, because we are supposedly the "rich farangs" who have everything, and they are envious and want to show us who is the boss, no matter how much money we have.

 

xylo, you went through all the trouble over 500THB just to show the IO who was boss.  Now you are prepared to cave in if asked to pay 22k?  I would rather not want to encourage "using agent" culture in Phuket Immigration.

[skatewash]

9 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

You don't have to deposit on the day you go to immigration. You can withdraw 100Bt if you want. Just so long as there is an entry in your bank account for that day.

 

Bangkok Bank cashiers can print a balance forward (b/f) entry in your passbook just because you asked (you don't have to deposit or withdraw).  I'm not sure the automated Bangkok Bank passbook update machines will do the same thing, but easy enough to give it a try.

[ThailandRyan]

11 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Do the IOs expect you to have 800k in a bank account PLUS show monthly deposits of money to live on?

If so, forget the 800k and just transfer 65k a month and show Mr IO that you spend most or all of it.

That is one of the ways that is accepted, the 65K a month transferred in and showing it came in internationally and not as a local transaction, This is why you need to have the twelve months of bank statements.  The other way is to have the 800K in a Fixed deposit account like I do, and then I update it annually to collect the interest and then the day of my extension I pick up the letter and make a small deposit into the account.  K-Bank also copies the Bank Book showing the transactions, which total all of a page and a half for the past three years.  My regular passbook account now covers three books as I use that for all of my transactions, and I never show that book or even take it to immigration.  The being asked by the I/O about what he lives on and to show that bank book is not needed and again smells of an I/O looking to be satiated.

[KannikaP]

2 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

The other way is to have the 800K in a Fixed deposit account like I do, and then I update it annually to collect the interest and then the day of my extension I pick up the letter and make a small deposit into the account. 

So can you actually add to the amount in a FIXED deposit account. I thought that you couldn't, it is FIXED.

[xylophone]

16 minutes ago, Kopitiam said:

xylo, you went through all the trouble over 500THB just to show the IO who was boss.  Now you are prepared to cave in if asked to pay 22k?  I would rather not want to encourage "using agent" culture in Phuket Immigration.

Your interpretation is entirely wrong I'm afraid, because all I did was question the 500 baht charge for something that should have been free, which I'm totally entitled to do.

 

It had nothing to do with showing the I/O who was boss because having been here for 15 years I know better than that, because you just can't win with them, however querying the 500 baht charge is not a crime nor is it an effort to show who's boss.

 

It was merely querying something that should have been free.

 

And for the record, I don't see it as "caving in", more allowing myself to live a stress free life here without immigration hassle and catching them on a "bad day". 

 

You said: I would rather not want to encourage "using agent" culture in Phuket Immigration.

 

Well I've got news for you, they can refer you to an agent who will handle the "money in the bank" side of things......

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by xylophone

[KarenBravo]

13 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

So do an online transfer, to the Mrs or anyone, then print out the online statement.

Why? So much easier to take 100Bt and use the machine next to the ATM to record the transaction. I have slightly more than 800k, so can withdraw a small sum. Of course, this must be done at a bank equipped with ATMs and book updater.

[KarenBravo]

15 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I must be missing something here or we are talking cross purposes, because he had the required 800k baht in a Thai bank account (900k actually) as requested by immigration.

 

Then he had his everyday transactional account which contains the money upon which he uses to live here, with incoming transactions from overseas, and he withdraws money from this using his ATM card.

 

As far as I am aware, the above satisfies the requirements of immigration, or as I said, am I missing something, apart from a brain cell or two?

KB.....see above response.

You need to show that your balance meets the requirements.

If you don't do a regular update, the bank lumps together transactions, so the dates are unknown and you can't prove that you met the requirements.

As I've said before, I do a small transaction just to get a print-out in my passbook and this was recommended to me by immigration and they explained why.

[ThailandRyan]

2 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

So can you actually add to the amount in a FIXED deposit account. I thought that you couldn't, it is FIXED.

What occurs is that the Fixed deposit term date is changed to the day you deposit the cash and is extended for whatever term you pick.  K-Bank has 3,6,9, 12, and 24 month terms.  By doing this this year when I updated the passbook it re-aligned my Fixed deposit date with my annual extension date, and then next year the update on the day I go and do the extension will show the interest being deposited into the account.  Hopefully I should not have to actually deposit any money, but then the K-Bank manager at CW will know the current flavor of immigration, as this year the bank letter format had changed.  You can read about that in another OP I started for my extension trip yesterday, if you interested.

[Kopitiam]

6 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Your interpretation is entirely wrong I'm afraid, because all I did was question the 500 baht charge for something that should have been free, which I'm totally entitled to do.

 

It had nothing to do with showing the I/O who was boss because having been here for 15 years I know better than that, because you just can't win with them, however querying the 500 baht charge is not a crime nor is it an effort to show who's boss.

 

It was merely querying something that should have been free.

 

And for the record, I don't see it as "caving in", more allowing myself to live a stress free life here without immigration hassle and catching them on a "bad day". 

So you rather "stress" yourself over 500THB when the IO had a bad day.  I would rather give a token sum for a free service than to start a "using agent" culture even when you have nothing to hide or not meeting requirement.

[KarenBravo]

12 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Bangkok Bank cashiers can print a balance forward (b/f) entry in your passbook just because you asked (you don't have to deposit or withdraw).  I'm not sure the automated Bangkok Bank passbook update machines will do the same thing, but easy enough to give it a try.

I'm aware of that, but why sit and wait in the bank until your number is called? So easy and quick to take out 100Bt.

The only reason why I would do what you post describes is if I had exactly 800k and was unable to withdraw anything. That'll never happen.

[KannikaP]

5 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

Why? So much easier to take 100Bt and use the machine next to the ATM to record the transaction. I have slightly more than 800k, so can withdraw a small sum. Of course, this must be done at a bank equipped with ATMs and book updater.

Easier than doing it in the comfort of my own home, without any Covid ridden banknotes pass through my mits!

[EricTh]

 

Something is not right here. The monthly transaction is only required if you don't have the minimum of 800K for 5 months per year.

 

I think your 'friend' isn't telling the truth.

[KannikaP]

2 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

By doing this this year when I updated the passbook it re-aligned my Fixed deposit date with my annual extension date

Surely the Fixed account starts on the day you open it, be it 3, 6, 12 or 24 months, and matures on the appropriate date. How can it 're-align' to your extension date?

[KarenBravo]

Just now, KannikaP said:

Easier than doing it in the comfort of my own home, without any Covid ridden banknotes pass through my mits!

Not really. You have to go to Phuket Town anyway, so I do it on the way to immigration.

As for Covid fear. You do realise that all touchable surfaces anywhere have the possibility of harbouring Covid. I'm just not that paranoid and I'm not going to wear gloves. I just can't live that way.

[JetsetBkk]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

As I said previously I am quite prepared to pay 20k plus to an agent to get round this hassle

I guess I would if it was the only option, i.e. go back to your own country or stay in Thailand. But I would try to "accommodate" them if I could, I wouldn't just give in at the first hurdle.

 

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

I barely say anything when I'm there, never argue and always smile, and of course dress smartly.

It was probably the tattoo on your neck...

 

????

 

[xylophone]

5 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

You need to show that your balance meets the requirements.

If you don't do a regular update, the bank lumps together transactions, so the dates are unknown and you can't prove that you met the requirements.

As I've said before, I do a small transaction just to get a print-out in my passbook and this was recommended to me by immigration and they explained why.

I can see what you're getting at as regards the "balance", however the documents he had from the bank showed that the 900k had been in the account and untouched for over a year.

 

His other account showed incomings and outgoings of over a million baht during the year.

 

So I'm still stumped as to why they refused his extension ALTHOUGH something has sprung to mind with regards to his 900k investment, inasmuch as I do believe he said that it was a four-year term investment?? 

 

I wonder if that would have had alarm bells ringing because it wouldn't be readily available??

[skatewash]

At least at Bangkok Bank you can make deposits into and withdrawals from a fixed deposit account.  I believe the "fixed" in the fixed deposit account refers to the fact that the interest rate is fixed for the account and the term of the account is also fixed.

Here's how Bangkok bank handles deposits and withdrawals into a fixed deposit account (from https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Business-Banking/Manage-My-Business/Operating-Accounts/Fixed-Deposit-Account) 

 

 

Quote

 

Multiple Deposits

You can make multiple deposits to the same account. If you add to your deposits over a period of time they will mature at different times. This means you have more flexibility when it comes to withdrawing your money.

Early Withdrawals

• If you withdraw your money within three months of opening the account, you will receive no interest on the deposit.
• If you withdraw your money after three months, but before it matures, you will receive the same interest rate as that on a savings account.

 

However, the last time I used a fixed deposit account to satisfy immigration's requirements for a retirement extension Bangkok Bank simply made a copy of my fixed deposit account passbook and signed/stamped that when I requested a bank statement.  It was accepted without problem by Phuket Immigration.  There was no activity shown on the account, just the initial deposit to start the account.  I also had the fixed deposit account book to show the immigration officer which looked the same as the copy the bank made for my "statement."  I guess they understand that if you have a fixed deposit book and it doesn't show any withdrawal that the money must still be in the account.

[JetsetBkk]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

On Monday I go to my bank to get a statement for 12 months worth of my everyday banking account, and also a statement for the 12 months during which my 800k has been languishing in its account and will see how that goes.

 

That's an excellent idea. I was thinking of doing the same, but my "everyday" account was below 800,000 for a while but back up over a million now. So I'll present the usual fixed deposit SCB account with bank letter and statements, but keep the "everyday" account statement and letter in my brief case in case they want to know what I've been living on.

 

Of course, this may all change depending what happens in the next few months.