ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Pib]

2 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Could be. The autolife numbers are actually registrations and not just sales numbers.

Ignoring January, the D-segment is almost split 50/50 between ICE and EV's, which is also what we see on the road in Bangkok.

 

EVs are EVERYWHERE in the greater Bangkok area...seeing more and more on the roads everyday as I drive and live in Bangkok....especially BYD Atto, Dolphin, and Seal. Also, plenty of ORA Good Cats and now seeing Changan Deepal's quite often.    So many EV models now.

 

 

[JetsetBkk]

On 6/25/2024 at 8:17 PM, ExpatOilWorker said:

Could be. The autolife numbers are actually registrations and not just sales numbers.

Ignoring January, the D-segment is almost split 50/50 between ICE and EV's, which is also what we see on the road in Bangkok.

Hope you don't park next to one. 

https://blackmon.substack.com/p/watch-lithium-ion-batteries-spontaneously?utm_medium=email

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, JetsetBkk said:

Hope you don't park next to one. 

https://blackmon.substack.com/p/watch-lithium-ion-batteries-spontaneously?utm_medium=email

 

You're between 11 and 130 times more likely to park next to a fire if you park next to an ICE vehicle.

[Pib]

And don't be near any laptop, tablet, phone, cordless drill,  or the many other devices with lithium ion batteries.  

 

And below NBC News article gives more details on the fire such as the immigrant day labors who got killed.  Seems this factory/warehouse was an accident waiting to happen and it finally did unfortunately.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/fire-south-korea-lithium-battery-plant-kills-least-16-people-rcna158536

 

[Ralf001]

On 6/25/2024 at 8:31 PM, Pib said:

 

EVs are EVERYWHERE in the greater Bangkok area...seeing more and more on the roads everyday as I drive and live in Bangkok....especially BYD Atto, Dolphin, and Seal. Also, plenty of ORA Good Cats and now seeing Changan Deepal's quite often.    So many EV models now.

 

 

Them Seals are a decent bit of kit.

 

I can see one in my future as a daily commuter.

[Yellowtail]

Drove by a BYD dealer today and they must have had twenty new cars on the lot. 

[JBChiangRai]

11 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Drove by a BYD dealer today and they must have had twenty new cars on the lot. 

 

Yes, they really are selling that fast.

[Pib]

At the dealership which I drive by almost everyday here in Bangkok it not uncommon for me to see delivery of new BYD vehicles on 8 vehicle  carrier trucks once or twice a week and for sure I don't see all deliveries since I drive by at random times.  And this dealership probably keeps around 25 new vehicles inside and parked around the dealership at all times.   EVs sell very well in the Bangkok metro area.

[Yellowtail]

12 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Yes, they really are selling that fast.

I think they were Seals, I know they were all white. Maybe a fleet purchase. 

[Pib]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I think they were Seals, I know they were all white. Maybe a fleet purchase. 

Or simply many Thais along with many foreigners prefer white.  Nothing wrong with that as everyone has different color preferences....and Thais predominately prefer while, silver, grey, and black.....conservative colors.   Plus white is a good heat reflector in the tropics.   Gosh, there are so, so many white vehicles on Thailand roads which is fine.

 

I estimate approx half of personal/private cars on Thai roads is white....followed by silver/grey, and then black.  After those conservative colors which makes up the great bulk of all cars in Thailand comes the reds,  purples, yellows, etc., more flamboyant  colors. 

[connda]

ICE vs EV, the debate thread

 

Hybrid.  I'm going more and more for the hybrid bandwagon.

[Pib]

5 minutes ago, connda said:

ICE vs EV, the debate thread

 

Hybrid.  I'm going more and more for the hybrid bandwagon.

Just be sure that's the bandwagon you want to ride.  Mid last year/2023 when I got the urge to buy a new car to replace/supplment my 2009 Toyota Fortuner and I started my research after a few months I decided against going Hybrid because it's nothing more than an ICEV with some electric thrown in...ranging from a little bit of electric (mild) to a fair amount of electric. 

 

But a Hybrid is also a more complicated vehicle than an ICEV or BEV since the Hybrid is an attempt to joint an ICEV and BEV at the hip.  Now you have two different systems that can break down (i.e., combustion and electric).   And if you are looking for fuel cost savings a Hybrid, especially a mild Hybrid, is just a baby step forward in better fuel mileage over a ICEV.   

 

Since I don't buy a new car often I didn't want to take a baby step towards much better fuel savings and don't like the idea of the vehicle being two system (ICE and electric) to be concerned about.    So, in Oct 2023 I bought a BYD Atto BEV....and very pleased with it after 15,000Km and 8 months.

 

 

[KhunLA]

12 minutes ago, Pib said:

Just be sure that's the bandwagon you want to ride.  Mid last year/2023 when I got the urge to buy a new car to replace/supplment my 2009 Toyota Fortuner and I started my research after a few months I decided against going Hybrid because it's nothing more than an ICEV with some electric thrown in...ranging from a little bit of electric (mild) to a fair amount of electric. 

 

But a Hybrid is also a more complicated vehicle than an ICEV or BEV since the Hybrid is an attempt to joint an ICEV and BEV at the hip.  Now you have two different systems that can break down (i.e., combustion and electric).   And if you are looking for fuel cost savings a Hybrid, especially a mild Hybrid, is just a baby step forward in better fuel mileage over a ICEV.   

 

Since I don't buy a new car often I didn't want to take a baby step towards much better fuel savings and don't like the idea of the vehicle being two system (ICE and electric) to be concerned about.    So, in Oct 2023 I bought a BYD Atto BEV....and very pleased with it after 15,000Km and 8 months.

Yea, I couldn't before, wrap my head around the hybrid concept, as a bit redundant, and as you point out, complicates things.  For me, defeats the whole purpose of getting away from ICEV.

 

Especially now, the the range of the newer BEV models.   They're not missing a beat, and 500 now to 1000 kms in the near future.

 

Back from another long O&A (14 nights) and just took the ZS in for 30k kms check up ... still Lovin' It 

Edited June 28 by KhunLA

[JetsetBkk]

4 hours ago, Pib said:

Mid last year/2023 when I got the urge to buy a new car to replace/supplment my 2009 Toyota Fortuner

Mid may when I finally decided to do something about my 2004 Toyota pickup, I decided to buy another Toyota. ICEV, of course.

It should see me out ☠ . 

[josephbloggs]

50 minutes ago, JetsetBkk said:

Mid may when I finally decided to do something about my 2004 Toyota pickup, I decided to buy another Toyota. ICEV, of course.

It should see me out ☠ . 

Thanks for sharing.

[aldriglikvid]

New study breaks the age old myth that EV's require less maintenance: 

"Automakers have typically said that EVs are generally less problematic and require fewer repairs than ICE vehicles because they have a smaller number of parts and systems. However, J.D. Power's study with newly incorporated repair data shows EVs, as well as plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), require more repairs than gas-powered vehicles in all repair categories.

J.D. Power’s study tracks responses from nearly 100,000 purchasers and lessees of 2024 vehicles within the first 90 days of ownership, and for the first time in the study’s 38-year history, it incorporates repair visit data. Overall, internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles averaged 180 PP100 (or 180 problems per 100 vehicles), while battery electric vehicles (BEVs) averaged a whopping 266 PP100, 86 points higher than ICE vehicles."

- J.D Power 2024-06



 

[josephbloggs]

24 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

New study breaks the age old myth that EV's require less maintenance: 

"Automakers have typically said that EVs are generally less problematic and require fewer repairs than ICE vehicles because they have a smaller number of parts and systems. However, J.D. Power's study with newly incorporated repair data shows EVs, as well as plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), require more repairs than gas-powered vehicles in all repair categories.

J.D. Power’s study tracks responses from nearly 100,000 purchasers and lessees of 2024 vehicles within the first 90 days of ownership, and for the first time in the study’s 38-year history, it incorporates repair visit data. Overall, internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles averaged 180 PP100 (or 180 problems per 100 vehicles), while battery electric vehicles (BEVs) averaged a whopping 266 PP100, 86 points higher than ICE vehicles."

- J.D Power 2024-06



 

Sorry, wrong. It is nothing to do with the drivetrain, batteries or motors, more troubles with tech like getting phones to connect and other high tech software issues (which legacy ICEVs don't have). It is annoyances for the new drivers, not reliability issues at all.

Normally when you post a claim you should provide a link rather than just cut and paste a bit that helps your narrative or pre-conceived biases.

https://insideevs.com/news/724798/are-evs-as-reliable/

"None of this should come as much of a shock. These types of surveys are typically a good measure of familiarity versus unfamiliarity. Old versus new. "

 

Or:

"One essential truism about automotive reliability: Older, more proven technology tends to be more reliable. Both in initial quality surveys and long-term reliability studies, consumers tend to be more satisfied with vehicles that use old-school technology. This is why Toyota and Honda—automakers that treat reliability as central to their mission—were slow to adopt turbocharging, slow to provide decent infotainment systems and slow to launch electric cars. (It's also why generations of cars like the Toyota 4Runner tend to stick around until they're old enough to buy their own cigarettes.)
 

It's also likely why Ram is at the top of the mainstream pack in J.D. Power's Initial Quality Study. If your previous truck was a Ram, and your new one uses the same 5.7-liter V-8, the same basic controls and the same fundamental U.I., you're unlikely to come back to the dealer confused or dissatisfied. That's key here because the IQS doesn't just cover things breaking, but also things that consumers are annoyed by."

Next!

 

Edited June 28 by josephbloggs

[Gweiloman]

7 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

Mid may when I finally decided to do something about my 2004 Toyota pickup, I decided to buy another Toyota. ICEV, of course.

It should see me out ☠ . 

Mid 2010’s. I decided to get rid of my then partner and get a new one. I decided to go for another female as I don’t fancy French kissing another male and I wasn’t adventurous enough to go for a ladyboy.

[JBChiangRai]

8 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

Mid may when I finally decided to do something about my 2004 Toyota pickup, I decided to buy another Toyota. ICEV, of course.

It should see me out ☠ . 

 

Congratulations.  A good solid, unexciting, safe choice.

[CallumWK]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/evs-are-giving-new-owners-more-headaches-and-tesla-is-a-big-reason-why-jd-power-study-180922855.html

 

EVs are giving new owners more headaches, and Tesla is a big reason why: J.D. Power study

J.D. Power's latest initial quality survey finds that EVs have more problems and higher severity of repairs compared to traditional autos.

 

J.D. Power’s study tracks responses from nearly 100,000 purchasers and lessees of 2024 vehicles within the first 90 days of ownership, and for the first time in the study’s 38-year history, it incorporates repair visit data. Overall, internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles averaged 180 PP100 (or 180 problems per 100 vehicles), while battery electric vehicles (BEVs) averaged a whopping 266 PP100, 86 points higher than ICE vehicles.

[Gweiloman]

On 6/29/2024 at 9:20 AM, CallumWK said:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/evs-are-giving-new-owners-more-headaches-and-tesla-is-a-big-reason-why-jd-power-study-180922855.html

 

EVs are giving new owners more headaches, and Tesla is a big reason why: J.D. Power study

J.D. Power's latest initial quality survey finds that EVs have more problems and higher severity of repairs compared to traditional autos.

 

J.D. Power’s study tracks responses from nearly 100,000 purchasers and lessees of 2024 vehicles within the first 90 days of ownership, and for the first time in the study’s 38-year history, it incorporates repair visit data. Overall, internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles averaged 180 PP100 (or 180 problems per 100 vehicles), while battery electric vehicles (BEVs) averaged a whopping 266 PP100, 86 points higher than ICE vehicles.

The biggest headache I’m facing after over a year of EV ownership is not knowing whether my car is on or off. No sound, no vibration, no fumes. So annoying 

[Gweiloman]

10 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

The biggest headache I’m facing after over a year of EV ownership is not knowing whether my car is on or off. No sound, no vibration, no fumes. So annoying 

To the person that gave me a confused emoji. I fully understand your confusion, presumably because you’ve never driven an EV. 
 

You see, in an ICEV, you get in, insert your key if it’s a particularly old or low tech vehicle and then crank the engine, either with the key or via a button. The engine then springs to life with a shudder and a puff of smoke. In an EV, you press a button (labelled start normally) and then… nothing. No drama. Just like pressing the ON button on a remote.

 

I liken it to the days when I was gainfully employed and having to travel for business. If you are unfortunate enough to fly cattle class, you struggle and squeeze your way along a narrow aisle to locate your seat, only to find the overhead cabin full with <deleted> from other passengers and you have to look for an empty space in another overhead cabin miles from your seat to plonk your carry on baggage.

 

On the other hand, at the front of the plane, the delightful and sometimes delicious stewardess show you to your seat and sometimes even offer to deposit your hand luggage on the voluminous cabin directly above your seat. Of course, being a gentleman, you would politely decline and do it yourself, implying that if she were to sit in your sexy performance EV, you would be holding the door open for her.

 

Don’t hesitate to seek further clarification if necessary. Regards.

[vinny41]

11 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

To the person that gave me a confused emoji. I fully understand your confusion, presumably because you’ve never driven an EV. 
 

You see, in an ICEV, you get in, insert your key if it’s a particularly old or low tech vehicle and then crank the engine, either with the key or via a button. The engine then springs to life with a shudder and a puff of smoke. In an EV, you press a button (labelled start normally) and then… nothing. No drama. Just like pressing the ON button on a remote.

 

I liken it to the days when I was gainfully employed and having to travel for business. If you are unfortunate enough to fly cattle class, you struggle and squeeze your way along a narrow aisle to locate your seat, only to find the overhead cabin full with <deleted> from other passengers and you have to look for an empty space in another overhead cabin miles from your seat to plonk your carry on baggage.

 

On the other hand, at the front of the plane, the delightful and sometimes delicious stewardess show you to your seat and sometimes even offer to deposit your hand luggage on the voluminous cabin directly above your seat. Of course, being a gentleman, you would politely decline and do it yourself, implying that if she were to sit in your sexy performance EV, you would be holding the door open for her.

 

Don’t hesitate to seek further clarification if necessary. Regards.

One of the first cars with a button-based ignition was the 1912 Cadillac Model 30, which had you press a button to activate the electric starter that replaced the engine crank. 

https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/31/23144907/push-button-start-ignition-cars-convenience-history

Keyless ignition was initially only available on luxury cars starting in the late 1990s, but it has become increasingly common. From 2008 to 2018, it became a standard feature on 62% of cars sold in the United States, and today that number is closing in on 100%

https://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/going-keyless.html#:~:text=Keyless

[Gweiloman]

15 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

One of the first cars with a button-based ignition was the 1912 Cadillac Model 30, which had you press a button to activate the electric starter that replaced the engine crank. 

https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/31/23144907/push-button-start-ignition-cars-convenience-history

Keyless ignition was initially only available on luxury cars starting in the late 1990s, but it has become increasingly common. From 2008 to 2018, it became a standard feature on 62% of cars sold in the United States, and today that number is closing in on 100%

https://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/going-keyless.html#:~:text=Keyless

Sigh. Both my Ford Ranger and Isuzu imax still have an ignition slot for the key. At least the Isuzu can be push started if necessary.

[JetsetBkk]

On 6/29/2024 at 8:15 AM, JBChiangRai said:

 

Congratulations.  A good solid, unexciting, safe choice.

Exactly what my even older mate with a Mini Cooper thinks! 

[JetsetBkk]

16 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

The biggest headache I’m facing after over a year of EV ownership is not knowing whether my car is on or off. No sound, no vibration, no fumes. So annoying 

I had the same trouble with my new ICEV Toyota. A couple of days ago I pushed the start button and then realised I had already started it. 🙄

[JetsetBkk]

5 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

To the person that gave me a confused emoji. I fully understand your confusion, presumably because you’ve never driven an EV. 
 

You see, in an ICEV, you get in, insert your key if it’s a particularly old or low tech vehicle and then crank the engine, either with the key or via a button. The engine then springs to life with a shudder and a puff of smoke. In an EV, you press a button (labelled start normally) and then… nothing. No drama. Just like pressing the ON button on a remote.

 

I liken it to the days when I was gainfully employed and having to travel for business. If you are unfortunate enough to fly cattle class, you struggle and squeeze your way along a narrow aisle to locate your seat, only to find the overhead cabin full with <deleted> from other passengers and you have to look for an empty space in another overhead cabin miles from your seat to plonk your carry on baggage.

 

On the other hand, at the front of the plane, the delightful and sometimes delicious stewardess show you to your seat and sometimes even offer to deposit your hand luggage on the voluminous cabin directly above your seat. Of course, being a gentleman, you would politely decline and do it yourself, implying that if she were to sit in your sexy performance EV, you would be holding the door open for her.

 

Don’t hesitate to seek further clarification if necessary. Regards.

I had to ask the salesman where the key was to my new ICEV Toyota. It was hidden in remote. 

Just to clarify. 😉

[MeePeeMai]

ICE all the way to my grave!

 

[JetsetBkk]

33 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

ICE all the way to my grave!

 

The nearest I had to that shape was a Ford 3 litre Capri. 

Although the Mustang was pretty close. 🙂

[JBChiangRai]

6 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

Exactly what my even older mate with a Mini Cooper thinks! 

 

I bought a Mini Cooper S Convertible for my office manager as a company car, he left shortly afterwards so I drove it for a couple of weeks.  I couldn't get comfortable in it, the car gave me backache so had to sell it.  It's the most uncomfortable car I have ever driven.