ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[josephbloggs]

1 hour ago, dutch boy said:

 

You are not the first bore to post this - seen it several times in this thread. Highly dull.

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, dutch boy said:

Yawn!

[josephbloggs]

3 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

You are not the first bore to post this - seen it several times in this thread. Highly dull.

And if we're doing boring memes at least this one hasn't been posted before.

 

[Yellowtail]

8 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

And if we're doing boring memes at least this one hasn't been posted before.

 

Yawn

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yawn

 

Yawn!

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yawn

 

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Yawn!

 

Why are you confused @ExpatOilWorker, would you lie me to explain it to you?

[aldriglikvid]

Ford, as many other auto manufacturers, decides to pull the plug on their EV ambitions: canceling several models and taking a $1.9billion write-off. 

They are instead going hybrid. 

Ford Steps Back From EVs—and Says Hybrids Are the Future

The automaker is killing its electric three-row SUV, delaying a next-gen pickup, and committing to future gas and diesel vehicles, citing a lack of consumer interest in full-EV cars.

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

Why are you confused @ExpatOilWorker, would you lie me to explain it to you?

Lie - like?

Pi - pie 🥧?

[JBChiangRai]

28 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

Ford, as many other auto manufacturers, decides to pull the plug on their EV ambitions: canceling several models and taking a $1.9billion write-off. 

They are instead going hybrid. 

Ford Steps Back From EVs—and Says Hybrids Are the Future

The automaker is killing its electric three-row SUV, delaying a next-gen pickup, and committing to future gas and diesel vehicles, citing a lack of consumer interest in full-EV cars.

 

 

that is partially true.

 

Ford has paused the large EV, and they are concentrating on smaller EV, they expect to launch a fully profitable $30,000 EV within the next 2 to 3 years

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 8/10/2024 at 8:14 AM, Bandersnatch said:

China, the world’s largest auto market is now over 50% electric.

 

What effect is this having on foreign brands?

 

 

 

Aug. 22 -- More than half of China's car dealerships were operating at a loss in the first half of the year, mainly because of struggles brought about by the price war in the Chinese automotive industry.

Some 50.8 percent of car dealers in China reported losses in the six months ended June 30, up 7.3 percent from a year earlier, according to data released yesterday by the China Automobile Dealers Association. Only 35.4 percent of them were profitable.

https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/over-half-of-chinas-car-dealers-were-in-the-red-in-first-half-amid-impacts-of-price-war

[KhunLA]

5 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

Ford, as many other auto manufacturers, decides to pull the plug on their EV ambitions: canceling several models and taking a $1.9billion write-off. 

They are instead going hybrid. 

Ford Steps Back From EVs—and Says Hybrids Are the Future

The automaker is killing its electric three-row SUV, delaying a next-gen pickup, and committing to future gas and diesel vehicles, citing a lack of consumer interest in full-EV cars.

 

 

Wonder what conglomerates are behind that move.   Probably the same that killed GM's electric car almost 20 years ago.  Not hybrids, but pushed hydrogen back then ... see how for that went, but gave them ~20 more years of profits.

 

Anything to keep the oil flowing and the high operating & maintenance cost of vehicle ownership going. 

[Yellowtail]

39 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Wonder what conglomerates are behind that move.   Probably the same that killed GM's electric car almost 20 years ago.  Not hybrids, but pushed hydrogen back then ... see how for that went, but gave them ~20 more years of profits.

 

Anything to keep the oil flowing and the high operating & maintenance cost of vehicle ownership going. 

And let's not forget the engine that burned water that the oil companies bought the patents to and destroyed the technology. 

[Pib]

19 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

And let's not forget the engine that burned water that the oil companies bought the patents to and destroyed the technology. 

 

Don't worry....Mr Toyota is coming to the rescue with its awesome water engine.....kicking to the curb their hydrogen-powered engine which was going to kill off electric vehicles.  Yeap....Mr Toyota is coming to the rescue....revolutionary engine just around the corner...but until then Mr Toyota says to keep buying their ICEV.   😜😉😁 

 

 

 

[Gweiloman]

19 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

Ford, as many other auto manufacturers, decides to pull the plug on their EV ambitions: canceling several models and taking a $1.9billion write-off. 

They are instead going hybrid. 

Ford Steps Back From EVs—and Says Hybrids Are the Future

The automaker is killing its electric three-row SUV, delaying a next-gen pickup, and committing to future gas and diesel vehicles, citing a lack of consumer interest in full-EV cars.

 

 

Yes, Ford and most other legacy automakers are so far behind the technological curve that they realise they cannot compete internationally with Chinese made EVs. Same reason the Chinese automakers started making EVs as they couldn’t compete with ICE legacy manufacturers.

 

This strategy will work in America because petrol is still cheap, the charging infrastructure is still poor and some Americans are still completely ignorant  and resistant to change. Ford is inevitably going the way of Kodak.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Gweiloman said:

Yes, Ford and most other legacy automakers are so far behind the technological curve that they realise they cannot compete internationally with Chinese made EVs. Same reason the Chinese automakers started making EVs as they couldn’t compete with ICE legacy manufacturers.

 

This strategy will work in America because petrol is still cheap, the charging infrastructure is still poor and some Americans are still completely ignorant  and resistant to change. Ford is inevitably going the way of Kodak.

"Americans are still completely ignorant  and resistant to change." 👍

 

With import tax & tariffs to keep CH BEV price high.  And the MSM anti CH spin being as strong as ever.   Big Oil still rules the USA.

 

Big 3 never could compete with Asian auto makers, so invested in them    

[KhunLA]

I know the EV & CH haters wont watch, so I copied the key take away for you.  Toyota sales are down 5%.  Although up in USA & EU .... BUT ... where & when people have a choice, their sales drop considerably 

 

 

Transcribed from ....

 

 

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I know the EV & CH haters wont watch, so I copied the key take away for you.  Toyota sales are down 5%.  Although up in USA & EU .... BUT ... where & when people have a choice, their sales drop considerably 

 

 

Transcribed from ....

 

 

So when more players come into a largely mature market, the take market share? How is that possible? 

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So when more players come into a largely mature market, the take market share? How is that possible? 

People simply waking up to no longer falling for the old legacy car makers, riding on their old, false, quality & dependability reputation.

 

That reputation use to ring true with original made in USA or EU crap.  But not any longer.  JP had their run, and failed to move forward with new technology.

 

Toyota has been promising every year with something new on the horizon ... and yet, still using BYD batteries in the BEVs & Hybrids 

 

When people do their research, and have a choice, they usually choose wisely.  

 

Don't need to go to the dealer, just pick your choices, look at the specs, the price, and cost to operate & maintain.   Just open your eyes.

 

If in TH, the choices are fairly obvious, once your prejudice is set aside.

[vinny41]

33 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

People simply waking up to no longer falling for the old legacy car makers, riding on their old, false, quality & dependability reputation.

 

That reputation use to ring true with original made in USA or EU crap.  But not any longer.  JP had their run, and failed to move forward with new technology.

 

Toyota has been promising every year with something new on the horizon ... and yet, still using BYD batteries in the BEVs & Hybrids 

 

When people do their research, and have a choice, they usually choose wisely.  

 

Don't need to go to the dealer, just pick your choices, look at the specs, the price, and cost to operate & maintain.   Just open your eyes.

 

If in TH, the choices are fairly obvious, once your prejudice is set aside.

Byd seem to have a different view to yours

BYD Company Ltd. (BYD) and Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) announced today that they have signed an agreement to establish a joint company to research and development for battery electric vehicles (BEVs). The new R&D company, which will work on designing and developing BEVs (including platform) and its related parts, is anticipated to be established in China in 2020, with BYD and Toyota to evenly share 50% of the total capital needed. Additionally, BYD and Toyota plan to staff the new company by transferring engineers and the jobs currently involved in related R&D from their respective companies.

 

On the establishment of the new company, BYD senior vice president Lian Yu-bo said:

“We aim to combine BYD’s strengths in development and competitiveness in the battery electric vehicle market with Toyota’s quality and safety technology to provide the best BEV products for the market demand and consumer affection as early as we can.”

 

https://en.byd.com/news/toyota-and-byd-announce-rd-company/

 

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, vinny41 said:

Byd seem to have a different view to yours

BYD Company Ltd. (BYD) and Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) announced today that they have signed an agreement to establish a joint company to research and development for battery electric vehicles (BEVs). The new R&D company, which will work on designing and developing BEVs (including platform) and its related parts, is anticipated to be established in China in 2020, with BYD and Toyota to evenly share 50% of the total capital needed. Additionally, BYD and Toyota plan to staff the new company by transferring engineers and the jobs currently involved in related R&D from their respective companies.

 

On the establishment of the new company, BYD senior vice president Lian Yu-bo said:

“We aim to combine BYD’s strengths in development and competitiveness in the battery electric vehicle market with Toyota’s quality and safety technology to provide the best BEV products for the market demand and consumer affection as early as we can.”

 

https://en.byd.com/news/toyota-and-byd-announce-rd-company/

 

 

Keep your friends close but your enemies closer.

[ExpatOilWorker]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

I know the EV & CH haters wont watch, so I copied the key take away for you.  Toyota sales are down 5%.  Although up in USA & EU .... BUT ... where & when people have a choice, their sales drop considerably 

 

 

Transcribed from ....

 

 

Good to see that you have joined in on this month's cherry 🍒 harvest.

Toyota has had a 30% market share in Thailand for many years, but 2024 is one of their strongest years with 33-34% market share.

Yes, absolute numbers are down, but that is for the entire auto market in Thailand. Toyota is doing better very well in a shrinking market.

The ginger 🫚 Aussie is pumping fake news again and his lemming followers happily copy/paste every bit of his propaganda 😀. 

[ExpatOilWorker]

44 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Keep your friends close but your enemies closer.

Please, come and sit next to me 😊 😃. 

 

[KhunLA]

55 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Byd seem to have a different view to yours

BYD Company Ltd. (BYD) and Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) announced today that they have signed an agreement to establish a joint company to research and development for battery electric vehicles (BEVs). The new R&D company, which will work on designing and developing BEVs (including platform) and its related parts, is anticipated to be established in China in 2020, with BYD and Toyota to evenly share 50% of the total capital needed. Additionally, BYD and Toyota plan to staff the new company by transferring engineers and the jobs currently involved in related R&D from their respective companies.

 

On the establishment of the new company, BYD senior vice president Lian Yu-bo said:

“We aim to combine BYD’s strengths in development and competitiveness in the battery electric vehicle market with Toyota’s quality and safety technology to provide the best BEV products for the market demand and consumer affection as early as we can.”

 

https://en.byd.com/news/toyota-and-byd-announce-rd-company/

 

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.  Win win for both, though a wild guess, Toyota gets to invest 50%, and get to add their name to BYD's R&D, as Toyota so far behind, what could the actually contribute, besides JPY ... IMHO

 

That's what Detroit did with JP auto makers decades ago.

[josephbloggs]

5 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Good to see that you have joined in on this month's cherry 🍒 harvest.

Toyota has had a 30% market share in Thailand for many years, but 2024 is one of their strongest years with 33-34% market share.

Yes, absolute numbers are down, but that is for the entire auto market in Thailand. Toyota is doing better very well in a shrinking market.

The ginger 🫚 Aussie is pumping fake news again and his lemming followers happily copy/paste every bit of his propaganda 😀. 

 

I don't have as much time as you guys with nothing to do but go through numbers every single day, nor do I really care, but it is clear all vehicle sales are down this year. 

You are cherry picking that Toyota market share is up? Normally people provide links.

How is Toyota's market share for ICEVs compared to their rivals' BEVs? What are the trends? Where is the growth? That should be telling.

Sukuzi are leaving Thailand so no-one is buy their celeriacs (only transam seems to like them). They have dropped from 8k units a year to only 1k units. Therefore market share for other ICEV makers increases.  Subaru are also exiting Thailand so no one is buying their cars.

Trying to claim Toyota are getting stronger is laughable, especially without providing a shred of evidence. Where is your evidence please?

[ExpatOilWorker]

5 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

 

I don't have as much time as you guys with nothing to do but go through numbers every single day, nor do I really care, but it is clear all vehicle sales are down this year. 

You are cherry picking that Toyota market share is up? Normally people provide links.

How is Toyota's market share for ICEVs compared to their rivals' BEVs? What are the trends? Where is the growth? That should be telling.

Sukuzi are leaving Thailand so no-one is buy their celeriacs (only transam seems to like them). They have dropped from 8k units a year to only 1k units. Therefore market share for other ICEV makers increases.  Subaru are also exiting Thailand so no one is buying their cars.

Trying to claim Toyota are getting stronger is laughable, especially without providing a shred of evidence. Where is your evidence please?

https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-thailand-by-month

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-thailand-by-month

 

You are Cherry Picking (note no childish emoji), taking the first 6 months of this year compared to last year, Toyota's market share dropped from 34.5% to 27.9% this year.

 

Passenger cars!  where EV's have appeared, it's abundantly clear where this goes.

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-thailand-by-month

 

I took the enclosed from your link and removed the June only specific columns to emphasise what's happening.

 

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

38 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I took the enclosed from your link and removed the June only specific columns to emphasise what's happening.

 

 

We all fully understand your life long struggle with percentages calculations, but by default market share is expressed in % and not absolute numbers. 

Advanced stuff, I know. It part of the year 2 curriculum at the 🖍 class. 

[ExpatOilWorker]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

You are Cherry Picking (note no childish emoji), taking the first 6 months of this year compared to last year, Toyota's market share dropped from 34.5% to 27.9% this year.

 

Passenger cars!  where EV's have appeared, it's abundantly clear where this goes.

I have not yet been invited to the cherry midsummer harvest festival. I hear it is located 700 km from civilization, which is easy within range of the Bimmers 750 kWh power pack.

 

The passenger car segment is irrelevant, the ginger nutter was referring to all of Toyota's sales in Thailand 🇹🇭. 

 

[Davejf2017]

EV cars are really disposable cars as their batteries need replacing after about 8 years which is in the 100,000 's of baht when you do not have to spend that much on a ICE car after about 8 years.Also when all so called fast chargers are being used at a location the charge rate will drastically decrease