ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[newbee2022]

2 minutes ago, malathione said:

My drives are frequently longer than 500 km and often my destinations do not have a convenient charging station. As for the hour spent charging, I prefer to take my longer breaks in an environment rather more salubrious than a roadside charging station. For me, a car is an instrument that grants me freedom. It needs to pander to my whims, not vice versa.

If your plan your trip it wouldn't be any problems to charge your cars. Same as to fill the tank of your car. Also it's good to have a break after 500km on Thailand's roads. (I do this every 2-3 hours)

[malathione]

Just now, newbee2022 said:

If your plan your trip it wouldn't be any problems to charge your cars. Same as to fill the tank of your car. Also it's good to have a break after 500km on Thailand's roads. (I do this every 2-3 hours)

My last two trips were a week in Khun Yuam and a week in Umphang. The only way to plan that would be to change the destination. If I spent more time driving in town or along major highways to bigger towns, absolutely, you are correct. 

[motdaeng]

6 minutes ago, malathione said:

My last two trips were a week in Khun Yuam and a week in Umphang. The only way to plan that would be to change the destination. If I spent more time driving in town or along major highways to bigger towns, absolutely, you are correct. 

 

isn't it funny, this kind of concern we hear only from non-ev owners ... 

 

ev's aren't for everyone ...  i am glad it is this way ... 

[malathione]

8 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

isn't it funny, this kind of concern we hear only from non-ev owners ... 

 

ev's aren't for everyone ...  i am glad it is this way ... 

And from people who actually wander around out of cities which,  apparently, you don't.. Yes, they certainly aren't for everyone. If I actually drove at all in town ( I don't, at all) or had a penchant for visiting larger towns, certainly an EV would fit the bill. 

[newbee2022]

23 minutes ago, malathione said:

My last two trips were a week in Khun Yuam and a week in Umphang. The only way to plan that would be to change the destination. If I spent more time driving in town or along major highways to bigger towns, absolutely, you are correct. 

The chargers are marked on Google maps even. I find it easy. Every 300km I go for recharge 

[malathione]

Just now, newbee2022 said:

The chargers are marked on Google maps even. I find it easy. Every 300km I go for recharge 

Yes they are. Assuming that Google Maps is current, there are none in Khun Yuam or in Umphang. Sure, I could drive 120 km or more round trip to recharge or I could use an appropriate vehicle and get gas within a 2 km radius. Could I make it to either destination and back in an EV? Yes. Could I wander around the area for a few days? No, not without going well out of my way or backtracking for a recharge.

[malathione]

5 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

The chargers are marked on Google maps even. I find it easy. Every 300km I go for recharge 

I do understand what you're saying and I respect it, by the way. My apologies if I came across as rude or combative. Not my intent, at all.

[HighPriority]

3 minutes ago, malathione said:

Yes they are. Assuming that Google Maps is current, there are none in Khun Yuam or in Umphang. Sure, I could drive 120 km or more round trip to recharge or I could use an appropriate vehicle and get gas within a 2 km radius. Could I make it to either destination and back in an EV? Yes. Could I wander around the area for a few days? No, not without going well out of my way or backtracking for a recharge.

Yes, I see your problem… 🤦🏼‍♂️

 

 

[transam]

29 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

isn't it funny, this kind of concern we hear only from non-ev owners ... 

 

ev's aren't for everyone ...  i am glad it is this way ... 

Perhaps non-EV owners think things through first.......🤗

[vinny41]

43 minutes ago, malathione said:

You and I obviously visit different parts of the country or the EV charging maps are not accurate. I suspect the former.

Byd blade 2 battery launching in 1st 6 months of 2025 rumors 1200km range

 

 

[malathione]

1 minute ago, HighPriority said:

Yes, I see your problem… 🤦🏼‍♂️

 

 

Haha that's great! Thank you. I take back what I said.

[newbee2022]

7 minutes ago, malathione said:

I do understand what you're saying and I respect it, by the way. My apologies if I came across as rude or combative. Not my intent, at all.

No offense. I know. Many here are indeed very rude. Probably a tonality of bar stool warriers😂. Thank you for this conversation.🙏

[KhunLA]

36 minutes ago, malathione said:

You and I obviously visit different parts of the country or the EV charging maps are not accurate. I suspect the former.

Not sure about that, as I get around a wee bit ... 

 

Barkin' up the wrong tree there bud, as covered half of the NE, most of Central, most of the N, and most of the S since having our BEV.

 

 

 

 

[malathione]

Just now, KhunLA said:

Not sure about that, as I get around a wee bit ... 

 

Barkin' up the wrong tree there bud, as covered half of the NE, most of Central, most of the N, and most of the S since having our BEV.

 

 

 

 

Good for you then.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, malathione said:

Yes they are. Assuming that Google Maps is current, there are none in Khun Yuam or in Umphang. Sure, I could drive 120 km or more round trip to recharge or I could use an appropriate vehicle and get gas within a 2 km radius. Could I make it to either destination and back in an EV? Yes. Could I wander around the area for a few days? No, not without going well out of my way or backtracking for a recharge.

Gmaps isn't even close  to current.  Charge Loma & PlugShare are a wee bit better, but you really do need to have the vendor's apps for finding anything off the beaten track.

 

Here's a ballpark idea, from Charge Loma app, and extremely incomplete, as I filter out the slow chargers, and show only the 4 vendors we actually use ... 

 

[malathione]

Just now, KhunLA said:

Gmaps isn't even close  to current.  Charge Loma & PlugShare are a wee bit better, but you really do need to have the vendor's apps for finding anything off the beaten track.

 

Here's a ballpark idea, from Charge Loma app, and extremely incomplete, as I filter out the slow chargers, and show only the 4 vendors we actually use ... 

 

Fantastic! Thank you for this. Much appreciated.

[brfsa2]

dannnggg... my EV insurance went  crazy high this year!

I had to pay 25,000 for a first class insurance for the BYD Atto3 60kWh. that's the cheapest I got.

meanwhile, I have another diesel car, priced way above the BYD, a 2.0MB car, and insurance how much? 14,000 for the 4rd year, dealer 1st class.

 

 

I dont think charging stations is problem today with EVs in Thailand. There's plenty, I think it's the insurance and repairs. ( I just did a round trip to Satahip from Bangkok on the Atto3, still have 13% when I got back home, leaving home at 100%)

 

Having to pay 10,000 baht extra for insurance if it's an EV, can eat up all the cost savings from having an EV compared to Petrol car where insurance is so cheap.

 

I made a calculation, taking into account Petrol Maintenance, Insurance, gas price and Electricity price:

- EVs are only more economical than a Petrol car if driven more than 12,000 Km/year

- EVs make a lot of sense if you drive at least 20,000 KM/year, where big savings can be achieved.

 

for example: a BYD Atto3 vs my Toyota Fortuner Legender

 

What I pay for my Toyota Legender for almost 4 years (since jan 2021):

- Maintenance: 64,000 baht

- Diesel Fuel: 160,000 baht (50,000+ km)

- Insurance: 60,000 baht (4 years)

- Road Tax: 28,000 baht (7,000/year)

Avg cost per year: 78,000 Baht

 

What I pay for my BYD Atto 3 for the past 2.5 years (20,000 km)

- Maintenance: 500 baht (swap tires once)

- Electricity: 17,000 baht (20,000 km)

- Insurance: 48,000 baht (2 years)

- Road Tax: 3000 Baht (1500/year)

Avg cost per year: 26,000 Baht

 

even we I drive BYD only 12,000km/year I can still save a lot of money, but I dont recommend to everyone to have an EV.

[KhunLA]

45 minutes ago, brfsa2 said:

dannnggg... my EV insurance went  crazy high this year!

I had to pay 25,000 for a first class insurance for the BYD Atto3 60kWh. that's the cheapest I got.

meanwhile, I have another diesel car, priced way above the BYD, a 2.0MB car, and insurance how much? 14,000 for the 4rd year, dealer 1st class.

 

 

I dont think charging stations is problem today with EVs in Thailand. There's plenty, I think it's the insurance and repairs. ( I just did a round trip to Satahip from Bangkok on the Atto3, still have 13% when I got back home, leaving home at 100%)

 

Having to pay 10,000 baht extra for insurance if it's an EV, can eat up all the cost savings from having an EV compared to Petrol car where insurance is so cheap.

 

I made a calculation, taking into account Petrol Maintenance, Insurance, gas price and Electricity price:

- EVs are only more economical than a Petrol car if driven more than 12,000 Km/year

- EVs make a lot of sense if you drive at least 20,000 KM/year, where big savings can be achieved.

 

for example: a BYD Atto3 vs my Toyota Fortuner Legender

 

What I pay for my Toyota Legender for almost 4 years (since jan 2021):

- Maintenance: 64,000 baht

- Diesel Fuel: 160,000 baht (50,000+ km)

- Insurance: 60,000 baht (4 years)

- Road Tax: 28,000 baht (7,000/year)

Avg cost per year: 78,000 Baht

 

What I pay for my BYD Atto 3 for the past 2.5 years (20,000 km)

- Maintenance: 500 baht (swap tires once)

- Electricity: 17,000 baht (20,000 km)

- Insurance: 48,000 baht (2 years)

- Road Tax: 3000 Baht (1500/year)

Avg cost per year: 26,000 Baht

 

even we I drive BYD only 12,000km/year I can still save a lot of money, but I dont recommend to everyone to have an EV.

Roojai ins, 2022 MG ZS 'D' model, ~14k, renewed and didn't get 'no claim' discount, since we had an oops.  Think ins was 9,400 the first time.

 

What I pay for our MG ZS for the past 2 years (35,000 km)

- Maintenance: three (10k, 20k, 30k kms) check ups ???

- Electricity: have solar, so mostly pay for CS when O&A

- Insurance: 10,400 ? & 14,000

- Road Tax: 1000 & 1500 ? Baht (1250/year)

Avg cost per year: too lazy to bother

[JBChiangRai]

3 hours ago, transam said:

Perhaps non-EV owners think things through first.......🤗

 

And buy a celery 

 

[transam]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

And buy a celery 

 

No, that is in the vegetable forum, where the turnips hang out, you will get a hearty welcome...............🤭

[Yodarapper]

5 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Byd blade 2 battery launching in 1st 6 months of 2025 rumors 1200km range

 

 

 

Would this video give you pause if you were thiking of buying a BYD EV now??

[vinny41]

3 minutes ago, Yodarapper said:

 

Would this video give you pause if you were thiking of buying a BYD EV now??

Well the electric viking indicated in the video he would delay purchase

There are many unknowns which models will the blade 2 battery appear in 

will the blade 2 battery appear in any of the current models 

I would hazzard a guess that blade 2 initally  wouldn't appear in any of the current models

and due to worldwide supply and demand will be aimed at new top end models

In 2027 will blade 2 batteries appear in all models both future and existing is anyone guess

If current models and models with blade 2 appear in the showroom at the same price its a no-brainer that people will opt for the blade 2 battery

will it have a huge impact on resale values I would say yes it will

[Pib]

9 hours ago, KhunLA said:

People that state there's not enough CS in rural areas apparently don't get out much, or notice much when they are.

 

We've never had a problem, and never a major inconvenience to top up.   Especially if you compare, add the time it takes to top up one's ICEV all the other times when staying local.

They are right....there are MANY rural areas that don't have enough chargers.  Yes, there will be chargers on "major" highways that go thru rural areas but the rural areas need many more chargers but I don't think that will occur until there are quite a few more EVs and affordable EV "pickup" trucks became available in Thailand.

[JBChiangRai]

I think we are looking at 3+ years down the line for these new blade batteries to appear in the models being sold in Thailand.

We haven’t seen the Seal platform 3.0 Evo yet.

 

in terms of affecting resale value, that is going to taper, depending on the age of the vehicle. Anybody who bought the old technology a year before the new technology is likely to be hit, but anybody with a car three years old, I doubt it’ll make any difference whatsoever. That means anybody buying a car now is unlikely to be affected at all.

[Pib]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Gmaps isn't even close  to current.  Charge Loma & PlugShare are a wee bit better, but you really do need to have the vendor's apps for finding anything off the beaten track.

 

Here's a ballpark idea, from Charge Loma app, and extremely incomplete, as I filter out the slow chargers, and show only the 4 vendors we actually use ... 

 

 

Yes, these types of "zoomed out" maps for all of Thailand or a highly populated areas can give the impression chargers are every couple kilometers (or closer)...almost like 7-11's all over the place even in rural areas.  BUT when you start zooming out vs using a zoomed-out satellite type view you will see big gaps in many places, especially rural areas, where the closest charger is tens of kilometers (or more) away and it's simply out-of-your-way to use or when you get there you find out it's occupied or non-operational.

 

Don't get me wrong, Thailand overall has a LOT of chargers but there are many areas where there are not any, not nearly enough, etc.   But if you are just looking for a charger while going on long trips on major highways there are many chargers along those major highways.

 

 

[vinny41]

27 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think we are looking at 3+ years down the line for these new blade batteries to appear in the models being sold in Thailand.

We haven’t seen the Seal platform 3.0 Evo yet.

 

in terms of affecting resale value, that is going to taper, depending on the age of the vehicle. Anybody who bought the old technology a year before the new technology is likely to be hit, but anybody with a car three years old, I doubt it’ll make any difference whatsoever. That means anybody buying a car now is unlikely to be affected at all.

I agree with your timeline for existing Byd models sold in Thailand although I suspect the byd blade 2 battery will come too Thailand for high end Byd models not announced yet more so if BYD competitors launch new models into Thailand with either the Qilin battery or the Shenxing PLUS battery both have similar ranges to the blade 2 battery

Its unlikely that Byd will allow any of their competitors to take Byd market share in Thailand without a fight

[Pib]

There will always be new EV batteries coming out that will be hyped as a BIG improvement but in the real world they will simply be minor/significant improvements.   If a person continues to wait for the next big improved EV battery they will probably never buy an EV because they will always be waiting.   That's what Mr. Toyota wants.

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, Pib said:

There will always be new EV batteries coming out that will be hyped as a BIG improvement but in the real world they will simply be minor/significant improvements.   If a person continues to wait for the next big improved EV battery they will probably never buy an EV because they will always be waiting.   That's what Mr. Toyota wants.

Blade 2 battery has been talked about for the past 18 months the Electric EV God in  Australia has stated the blade 2 battery has extended cycle life and if he was looking for a Byd car currently he would wait

He has received confirmation from Byd as to the period that the blade 2 battery will be launched next year

 

[brfsa2]

The current BYD blade battery is good for longevity and Water protection is excellent. Being LFT type, it's expected to last at least  500,000 km.

That comes with a the cost of not being repairable. The Tesla battery is easily  repairable for bad modules. There's is an expert in YouTube that explains the details of taking the Blade battery apart. Once it's opened, all the seals are destroyed and the casing too.

 

Solid state batteries will come, but i think LFP are good enough for the current years to come. 

I also already have some 18650 sodium batteries, they are super cheap but capacity is still very low 

[thailand49]

You do the data, EV are a myth they pollute just making them especially the material to make batteries. Charging is just one of many not too.