ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Yellowtail]

11 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

Phrakhanong.

In one of those little shacks on the canal? 

[KhunLA]

can't find any Chargers & there's always a long Q ????

[Yellowtail]

8 hours ago, KhunLA said:

can't find any Chargers & there's always a long Q ????

Because of all the out of order signs? 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 4/19/2023 at 3:48 PM, 3NUMBAS said:

lithium deposits are limited and china has 80% will they weaponise it ?

The various problems with lithium availability (and mining practices) are why so many people are researching alternatives.

 

Here's an article outlining 7 possible alternatives to lithium for EV batteries.

 

7 Lithium Battery Alternatives

 

These all sound quite promising, however as the article points out:

 

Quote

Although many of these technologies are still in development and are not commercially available yet, they indicate that modern industry is accelerating to end its affair with lithium-ion batteries.

 

[KhunLA]

52 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Because of all the out of order signs? 

EV Only signs

[GroveHillWanderer]

Battery technology seems to be making advances almost every day now.

 

This looks like a really promising development - a battery using existing recharging infrastructure that:

 

Quote

is capable of fast-charging up to 100% in less than six minutes

According to the article below, it should be available next year in a Lotus Elise model.

 

Electrified Lotus Elise Charges To 100% In 6 Minutes

 

It doesn't have a particularly spectacular driving range at 250 km but it's also smaller and lighter than current batteries and since this is only the first iteration of it, they will no doubt be working on increasing the range in future (probably by making bigger and heavier versions).

[JBChiangRai]

33 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Battery technology seems to be making advances almost every day now.

 

This looks like a really promising development - a battery using existing recharging infrastructure that:

 

According to the article below, it should be available next year in a Lotus Elise model.

 

Electrified Lotus Elise Charges To 100% In 6 Minutes

 

It doesn't have a particularly spectacular driving range at 250 km but it's also smaller and lighter than current batteries and since this is only the first iteration of it, they will no doubt be working on increasing the range in future (probably by making bigger and heavier versions).

The challenges of charging are immense.  Allowing for losses, you would need to be charging at 400Kw average, there are issues with connectors and cables producing heat, I would guess it has to have 800v architecture as a minimum.  It will need a whole new breed of DC chargers too.

 

Generally, it takes at least 10 years to bring new technology to market, I'm more than a little skeptical. 

[KhunLA]

Just back from a short O&A, only 1419 kms.

 

If having to pay all at CS, then extreme negative price would be;

EV  ~฿1460 

ICE  ~฿3550

Obviously the first 280 kms were from solar, but came back with 170 kms, so paid for way more than needed.  Savings actually more than 2k+ showing.

 

No charging stop was time consuming/more than we were going to be there anyway.   We we were done, whatever, we stopped charging, unplugged & left. All were along our route, and all conveniently located @ PTT or BangChak station w/7-11 and or coffee shop.

 

One MG CS on Sunday, so could use break room, but that was an unscheduled/unnecessary stop, as had to use internet to figure out where next, since change of mind in route ... ????  Actually topped up before done researching, and didn't need to top up anyway, as decided to only venture another 150 kms.

 

[EVENKEEL]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Just back from a short O&A, only 1419 kms.

 

If having to pay all at CS, then extreme negative price would be;

EV  ~฿1460 

ICE  ~฿3550

Obviously the first 280 kms were from solar, but came back with 170 kms, so paid for way more than needed.  Savings actually more than 2k+ showing.

 

No charging stop was time consuming/more than we were going to be there anyway.   We we were done, whatever, we stopped charging, unplugged & left. All were along our route, and all conveniently located @ PTT or BangChak station w/7-11 and or coffee shop.

 

One MG CS on Sunday, so could use break room, but that was an unscheduled/unnecessary stop, as had to use internet to figure out where next, since change of mind in route ... ????  Actually topped up before done researching, and didn't need to top up anyway, as decided to only venture another 150 kms.

 

I'll just continue driving 3.0 diesel, stop when I want.

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'll just continue driving 3.0 diesel, stop when I want.

Same as us, and we stopped 'only' when we wanted.   But while there, simply plugged in.  

AND ... got paid ฿2000 to do so ????  Along with no need for that tune up, plugs & Oil changes every so often.  More savings and trips to the dealer we prefer not to do.

 

Thank you for contribution to the local air pollution problem.

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

I'll just continue driving 3.0 diesel, stop when I want.

And enjoy the rattling engine preventing you from nodding off and get out at the end of the journey knackered from all the NVH.

[GroveHillWanderer]

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

The challenges of charging are immense.  Allowing for losses, you would need to be charging at 400Kw average, there are issues with connectors and cables producing heat, I would guess it has to have 800v architecture as a minimum.  It will need a whole new breed of DC chargers too.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. According to all the articles about it (and there are a bunch of them) this new fast-charging battery does not require a new breed of chargers, nor to charge at a higher Kw rate. The articles all make a point of saying it will fully charge in 6 minutes using existing chargers.

 

As the article below from AutoCar states:

 

Quote

the 35kWh unit here can be fully charged (to give a 155-mile range) in just six minutes, using existing infrastructure. 

 Lotus Elise S1 reborn as rapid-charging EV sports

 

They also all say that it will be available next year. That is still a prediction but I'd be surprised if they're off by a whole 9 years.

[JBChiangRai]

37 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. According to all the articles about it (and there are a bunch of them) this new fast-charging battery does not require a new breed of chargers, nor to charge at a higher Kw rate. The articles all make a point of saying it will fully charge in 6 minutes using existing chargers.

 

As the article below from AutoCar states:

 

 Lotus Elise S1 reborn as rapid-charging EV sports

 

They also all say that it will be available next year. That is still a prediction but I'd be surprised if they're off by a whole 9 years.

If the battery is 35 KwHrs and we assume ithey are quoting 0% to 100% (since they don't mention anything else, this is the sensible assumption), then with losses you are going to have to give it 40 KwHrs (approx) and you are charging it in 6 minutes, that is 1/10 of an hour.  400 Kw for 6 minutes = 40 KwHrs.  

 

I don't think they are off by 9 years, but I do think it will take most of that to achieve mass adoption.  No major manufacturer is going to switch across to their batteries without exhaustive testing.

 

Incidentally, this isn't the first manufacturer to develop a BEV from a Lotus Elise (Tesla Roadster)

[GroveHillWanderer]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

If the battery is 35 KwHrs and we assume ithey are quoting 0% to 100% (since they don't mention anything else, this is the sensible assumption), then with losses you are going to have to give it 40 KwHrs (approx) and you are charging it in 6 minutes, that is 1/10 of an hour.  400 Kw for 6 minutes = 40 KwHrs.  

I'm not sure about how the technicalities of it work, but the articles I've read (unless they're somehow mistaken) all say that it can charge to 100% in six minutes.

 

Here's another quote from the same AutoCar article, talking about the 35 kWh battery.

 

Quote

Using existing infrastructure, it fully charges in just six minutes and charges to 80% in four minutes. 

I see that the fastest chargers around at the moment are 350 kW so if I understand how the figures you give work, that apparently means they've found a way to charge a battery without any losses?

[JBChiangRai]

35 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I'm not sure about how the technicalities of it work, but the articles I've read (unless they're somehow mistaken) all say that it can charge to 100% in six minutes.

 

Here's another quote from the same AutoCar article, talking about the 35 kWh battery.

 

I see that the fastest chargers around at the moment are 350 kW so if I understand how the figures you give work, that apparently means they've found a way to charge a battery without any losses?

I think it’s more likely they are charging from 20% to Full.  I don’t think I’ve ever had my battery below 20% and if you are on a long journey, you’re probably getting anxious at that level.

[EVENKEEL]

4 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

And enjoy the rattling engine preventing you from nodding off and get out at the end of the journey knackered from all the NVH.

The rattling you refer to is power. vroom vroom

[EVENKEEL]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Same as us, and we stopped 'only' when we wanted.   But while there, simply plugged in.  

AND ... got paid ฿2000 to do so ????  Along with no need for that tune up, plugs & Oil changes every so often.  More savings and trips to the dealer we prefer not to do.

 

Thank you for contribution to the local air pollution problem.

Hopefully I won't be forced into an electric vehicle in my lifetime.

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

The rattling you refer to is power. vroom vroom

Ev's have much more power, are faster, and sound like "      "

[KhunLA]

27 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Ev's have much more power, are faster, and sound like "      "

Yep ... ICE cars are expensive to buy, operate, and inefficient dinosaurs.  Along with the dirty, unrenewable fuel that keeps them running.  Big oil/fossil fuel conglomerates are finally losing their grip on the world's energy.  People finally waking up ... and had enough of the BS.

 

Just a matter of time ... sooner the better, for everyone.

[Furioso]

If I'm choosing between EV or ICE TODAY I am choosing ICE every single time. 

 

However, it has to be something like a Prius, a small car that is very practical and gets very high gas mileage, especially since I'm extreme at hypermilling. 

 

 

[KhunLA]

25 minutes ago, Furioso said:

If I'm choosing between EV or ICE TODAY I am choosing ICE every single time. 

 

However, it has to be something like a Prius, a small car that is very practical and gets very high gas mileage, especially since I'm extreme at hypermilling. 

 

 

That's one of the reasons I have a BEV ????

[macahoom]

30 minutes ago, Furioso said:

If I'm choosing between EV or ICE TODAY I am choosing ICE every single time. 

 

However, it has to be something like a Prius, a small car that is very practical and gets very high gas mileage, especially since I'm extreme at hypermilling. 

If I'm choosing between EV or ICE TODAY I am choosing EV every single time. 

 

However, it has to be something like a Porsche Taycan, a fantastic car that is very beautiful and goes very fast, especially since I'm extreme at living life to the full.

[sezze]

25 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Yep ... ICE cars are expensive to buy, operate, and inefficient dinosaurs.  Along with the dirty, unrenewable fuel that keeps them running.  Big oil/fossil fuel conglomerates are finally losing their grip on the world's energy.  People finally waking up ... and had enough of the BS.

 

Just a matter of time ... sooner the better, for everyone.

I am in favor of EV cars , but for fossil fuel companies it does not mean anything and neither it does for nature/earth . Most of the fossil fuel is not used for cars , it is used for all kinds of stuff , from plastics over paints , from medicines to herbicides fertilizers and so on , but also for food preservatives to dyes to well just about anything you got including all the technology used in EVs and the computers and phones you working on . Not to forget , many electricity for EVs is made by fossil fuel . That being said , any diesel car can run on biodiesel , made out of fat and oil waste .

The greenwashing has no benefit , in fact if people do know the facts it will rather put them off then going for it .

Buy EVs for silent and much better engine performance . Given all the rest of the car would be the same a EV does outperform any fuel based engine thx to it's superior torque/power .

Now EVs are not the same like ICE cars , as batteries might be a problem , but you can charge at home , which is nearly impossible (the biodiesel part) for ICE cars. Sure you have to count in solar panels but it can be done fairly easy .

ICE cars are adult , but have many parts which can break and trying to work on any new car is just about as impossible as on EV , which is still a new tech and got some child diseases .

[JBChiangRai]

9 hours ago, macahoom said:

If I'm choosing between EV or ICE TODAY I am choosing EV every single time. 

 

However, it has to be something like a Porsche Taycan, a fantastic car that is very beautiful and goes very fast, especially since I'm extreme at living life to the full.

I don't think I know anyone who after owning an EV would ever buy an ICE car again.

[KhunLA]

Returned from a short 10 day / 9 night O&A, using CSs.  Some quick #s, to show the savings vs ICEV.  Left house at 100% for 'us', so only 7.5 'paid' full charges, since using Solar at home.  Others on PEA/MEA, ฿4 ish per kWh, so EV #s are on the negative side.

 

Saved enough to either pay for 5 night of our hotels + some, or pretty much all our food.  Explored non metro, non tourist areas.

 

Full charge gives us 320 kms, from usable battery of 46.3kWh.  Comparison of cost  between MG ZS EV & ICE version, which we own & owned.

 

Photo is self explanatory:

 

[kwilco]

The "luddites" who criticize evs are SOOOOOO predictable.

"They are not green" - well they are greener than ICEs so that's one reason to get rid of ICEs.

The infrastructure isn't there - well when it g=comes to installing infrastructure compare what is needed to install a "Plug" compare to a massive fuel tnak in the ground with pumps on top and trucks continuously driving round to fill them up.

THe batteries explode - so does gasoline.

THey still use carbon fuels. Yes - in the form of CENTRAL power stations which are now increasingly turning to non-fossil fuels.

THey don't have range - actuall=y they are about the same as a thirsty pickup on a tank of diesel - but in reality most people don't drive that dar on a daily or weekly basis.

 

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, kwilco said:

The "luddites" who criticize evs are SOOOOOO predictable.

"They are not green" - well they are greener than ICEs so that's one reason to get rid of ICEs.

The infrastructure isn't there - well when it g=comes to installing infrastructure compare what is needed to install a "Plug" compare to a massive fuel tnak in the ground with pumps on top and trucks continuously driving round to fill them up.

THe batteries explode - so does gasoline.

THey still use carbon fuels. Yes - in the form of CENTRAL power stations which are now increasingly turning to non-fossil fuels.

THey don't have range - actuall=y they are about the same as a thirsty pickup on a tank of diesel - but in reality most people don't drive that dar on a daily or weekly basis.

 

Remove all the petrochemical by products from EV's and what are you left with no glass, no dashboard, no seats, no carpets, no tyres. no rims, no steering wheel, no plastics, no rubber, no seat frames, no mirrors, no paint

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

Remove all the petrochemical by products from EV's and what are you left with no glass, no dashboard, no seats, no carpets, no tyres. no rims, no steering wheel, no plastics, no rubber, no seat frames, no mirrors, no paint

THat's exactly the silly things I'm talking about - so you are saying we should stay with ICEs because of that?

 

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, kwilco said:

THat's exactly the silly things I'm talking about - so you are saying we should stay with ICEs because of that?

 

I didn't say that just pointing out that while EV's may be a little greener than ICE vehicles they still require a large number of  petrochemical by products

[KhunLA]

7 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Remove all the petrochemical by products from EV's and what are you left with no glass, no dashboard, no seats, no carpets, no tyres. no rims, no steering wheel, no plastics, no rubber, no seat frames, no mirrors, no paint

Yet another silly post ... to counter your silliness.

 

Consider removing all the batteries from existence ...

... hope you don't require a pacemaker