ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[JBChiangRai]

When the energy costs and then interest rate increases happened in the UK, I predicted that people who owned their cars would hang onto them longer and most people in the market for a car would either downgrade their choice or by a second hand beater.

 

Disposable income is way down in the UK and their mortgage costs have gone through the roof, so have the costs of heating their homes. People prioritize their home over their car. Car lease/PCP rates have increased enormously because of interest rates too.

 

There has been a switch since I left the UK 2 decades ago.  People used to buy their cars, now they lease or PCP them.  Cars are becoming unaffordable for a lot of people.

 

There are still great tariffs available for overnight charging your EV making it many times cheaper than petrol.  However, the DC  Chargers available are sometimes more than 30x the cost of charging at home. This needs to be addressed.

 

[vinny41]

3 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

The fact is simply this.  The EV market share of new registrations is increasing month on month, anything saying otherwise is simply deflection.

 

People like EV's, in Thailand they buy or finance them, in the UK they lease or PCP them (they then appear as fleet purchases).

PCP doesn't appear as Fleet

What is a fleet vehicle?

Fleet vehicles are cars or vans which have been leased or purchased by a company for their employees to use for business purposes, which they can pay for on a monthly basis – a bit like getting a car on finance.

https://www.jct600.co.uk/news/fleet-vehicles-explained/#:~:text=Fleet

As mentioned brand-new, zero-emission EVs have qualified for a First Year Allowance (FYA), which allows for 100% of the EV cost to be offset against yearly taxable profits.

Fleet or Business owners only 

Toyota hikes annual profit forecast after Q3 beats expectations

Hikes full-year profit forecast by about 9% to 4.9 trillion yen

Toyota's Q3 operating profit surges almost 76%

The improved outlook from the world's best-selling automaker contrasts with a downbeat forecast from many rivals that have warned of tepid sales growth and announced output cuts amid high interest rates and slowing demand for electric vehicles.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-posts-76-jump-q3-operating-profit-2024-02-06/

 

[JBChiangRai]

20 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

PCP doesn't appear as Fleet

What is a fleet vehicle?

Fleet vehicles are cars or vans which have been leased or purchased by a company for their employees to use for business purposes, which they can pay for on a monthly basis – a bit like getting a car on finance.

https://www.jct600.co.uk/news/fleet-vehicles-explained/#:~:text=Fleet

As mentioned brand-new, zero-emission EVs have qualified for a First Year Allowance (FYA), which allows for 100% of the EV cost to be offset against yearly taxable profits.

Fleet or Business owners only 

Toyota hikes annual profit forecast after Q3 beats expectations

Hikes full-year profit forecast by about 9% to 4.9 trillion yen

Toyota's Q3 operating profit surges almost 76%

The improved outlook from the world's best-selling automaker contrasts with a downbeat forecast from many rivals that have warned of tepid sales growth and announced output cuts amid high interest rates and slowing demand for electric vehicles.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-posts-76-jump-q3-operating-profit-2024-02-06/

 

 

I don't have any first hand experience, but I think PCP does appear as fleet.  You don't own the vehicle unless and until you make the final balloon payment.  It is owned by the finance company who buy the car initially, so I suspect it will appear as fleet as the same company is also providing contract hire and lease vehicles to businesses.

 

I am fairly sure any analysis of fleet versus personal purchases will include PCP & Lease cars in the "fleet" category.

 

Incidentally, JCT600 (owned by Jack C Tordoff) was my local Porsche dealer in the UK.

[vinny41]

Next roadblock for electric cars: Early adopter era is over

https://www.axios.com/2023/08/09/electric-cars-adoption-rates

 

More automakers are being forced to rethink their EV plans

https://www.businessinsider.com/automakers-back-to-the-drawing-board-ev-plans-2024-2

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/07/1227707306/ev-electric-vehicles-sales-2024

 

Interesting times ahead for existing EV owners they have to decide is Tesla friend or Foe

At the moment we have seen that when Tesla either has an overstock of EV or are not hitting their sales target their solution is price reduction which then has a knock on effect with over manufacturers

Good for new customers not so good for existing EV owners as any price reduction has a knock on effect on the value of their present EV

Brands that are choosing to scale back their current production lines mainly to protect their investment/profit margins do protect their existing customer base as there is no sudden drops in value

I think anyone that wanted an EV has already purchase one so the next customer range EV will find they are a much harder to buy group compared with the early EV adopters

Time will tell

[JBChiangRai]

I think the market will polarize into China/Tesla vs. everyone else.

 

China & Tesla have got their supply chains sorted out and both can afford to price their vehicles in a way that disrupts Japan, USA & Germany.

[vinny41]

9 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think the market will polarize into China/Tesla vs. everyone else.

 

China & Tesla have got their supply chains sorted out and both can afford to price their vehicles in a way that disrupts Japan, USA & Germany.

USA currently has a 27.5 import tariff on Chinese cars and possible more restrictions on the way

Biden administration may restrict imports of Chinese EVs and their parts no matter where they are built

https://fortune.com/asia/2024/02/09/biden-administration-restrict-imports-chinese-evs-parts-built/

Japan consumers have little interest in EV due to  lack of government incentives and infrastructure to support electric vehicles and they prefer hybrid 

EU  has an ongoing anti-subsidy investigation into electric vehicles coming from China.”

On Solid State batteries 

It would appear that Japanese companies hold the most patents Toyota has the largest share of over 1,300 patents while Chinese companies hold less than 100 patents

https://electrek.co/2024/02/12/byd-catl-form-chinese-powerhouse-solid-state-ev-batteries/#:~:text=Toyota

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

7 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

The fact is simply this.  The EV market share of new registrations is increasing month on month, anything saying otherwise is simply deflection.

 

People like EV's, in Thailand they buy or finance them, in the UK they lease or PCP them (they then appear as fleet purchases).

Let's see when the pudding 🍮 goes sour.

When do you think we will see the first y-o-y drop in EV sales in Thailand?

Late 2024 or early 2025?

[Pib]

Fingers-in-the-Dike and election year political cover type actions.   Heck, US politicians are still arguing over banning TikTok for the masses (lot of talk but scared to take any real action)...other than the President banning TicTok on "US government owned phones" TikTok continues to be about the most favorite app going with the masses.

 

Lower cost Chinese EVs will make their way into the US markets....the special interest groups only have so many fingers to plug the dike...and after this election year politicians vocal interest will drop way off until the next election two years down the road.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

47 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

USA currently has a 27.5 import tariff on Chinese cars and possible more restrictions on the way

Biden administration may restrict imports of Chinese EVs and their parts no matter where they are built

https://fortune.com/asia/2024/02/09/biden-administration-restrict-imports-chinese-evs-parts-built/

Japan consumers have little interest in EV due to  lack of government incentives and infrastructure to support electric vehicles and they prefer hybrid 

EU  has an ongoing anti-subsidy investigation into electric vehicles coming from China.”

On Solid State batteries 

It would appear that Japanese companies hold the most patents Toyota has the largest share of over 1,300 patents while Chinese companies hold less than 100 patents

https://electrek.co/2024/02/12/byd-catl-form-chinese-powerhouse-solid-state-ev-batteries/#:~:text=Toyota

 

China is not particularly known for honouring IP

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Let's see when the pudding 🍮 goes sour.

When do you think we will see the first y-o-y drop in EV sales in Thailand?

Late 2024 or early 2025?

Do you mean drop in sales? Or drop in growth? Or drop in market share?

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Pib said:

Fingers-in-the-Dike and election year political cover type actions.   Heck, US politicians are still arguing over banning TikTok for the masses (lot of talk but scared to take any real action)...other than the President banning TicTok on "US government owned phones" TikTok continues to be about the most favorite app going with the masses.

 

Lower cost Chinese EVs will make their way into the US markets....the special interest groups only have so many fingers to plug the dike...and after this election year politicians vocal interest will drop way off until the next election two years down the road.

 

 

It’s a conundrum.

 

Low cost Chinese EV’s will enable mass adoption of EV’s but kill the American auto manufacturing industry but keep consumers happy.

 

Preventing low cost Chinese EV’s will massively slow the adoption of EV’s, perhaps preventing it for many years, save the American auto manufacturing industry but annoy consumers.

 

The same applies in the UK and EU.

 

You have only to look at what is happening in Thailand where there are no barriers to Chinese EV.  

[KhunLA]

9 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Let's see when the pudding 🍮 goes sour.

When do you think we will see the first y-o-y drop in EV sales in Thailand?

Late 2024 or early 2025?

When the tax incentives stop, possibly.    Although the price war will continue, along with less expensive price tags, once manufactured in TH ... hopefully.   Maybe not such a big impact to sales, as hopefully price drops will compensate loss of tax incentives.

[JBChiangRai]

Just now, KhunLA said:

When the tax incentives stop, possibly.    Although the price war will continue, along with less expensive price tags, once manufactured in TH ... hopefully.   Maybe not such a big impact to sales, as hopefully price drops will compensate loss of tax incentives.

I don’t think the prices will change when the incentives end.  IIRC the Seal price in Australia is identical to Thailand with no incentives to the manufacturer available.

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Let's see when the pudding 🍮 goes sour.

When do you think we will see the first y-o-y drop in EV sales in Thailand?

Late 2024 or early 2025?

I expect there will be a drop in registrations in  March 2024 and April  car sales up tp end of December 2023 normally  take 30-60 dates before they show up in the registrations monthly stats so expect to see skewed registrations for February 2024

People will wait for Bangkok Motor Show from 27 March 2024 to 07 April 2024. to see if any new models appearing and any pricing adjustments also some people will wait for  Byd to start local manufacturing in June of 2024 (date not confirmed)

When Mg started local manufacturing of MG4 in November 2023 there was no pricing adjustments

However when GWM started local manufacturing of the Ora in January 2024 there was a price reduction of between  B29,000 to 187,000 baht compared to the Chinese versions

Will there be a price reduction of Byd models when they are locally produced guess we will have to wait and 

Still no solution for the majority of condos owners regarding charging and still no electric pickup on the market 

EV's manufacturers worldwide are expecting slower sales now that the early adopters have purchased their vehicles I would expect it will be the same in Thailand

There are some youtube videos available where Thai owners have switched back from EV to ICE vehicles

insurance costs capital amount on insurance and replacement tyres at B10,000 a wheel limited charging, long distances  were listed as some of the reasons for switching back to ICE

 

 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

When the tax incentives stop, possibly.    Although the price war will continue, along with less expensive price tags, once manufactured in TH ... hopefully.   Maybe not such a big impact to sales, as hopefully price drops will compensate loss of tax incentives.

Chinese version of ORA Good Cat GT : 1,286,000 baht April 2023

Thai version of ORA Good Cat GT 1,099,000 baht January 2024

Thai version B187,000 price reduction 

Only Major difference I see between these models

Adjusted battery capacity from 63.139 kWh by CATL to 57.70 kWh by SVOLT.

CATL battery Chinese version

SVOLT  Thai assembled model, manufactured by SVOLT Energy battery factory in Thailand.

There are a number of other changes on the Thai version these can be found here

https://www.headlightmag.com/2024-01-12-official-price-ora-good-cat-made-in-thailand/

[HighPriority]

9 hours ago, retarius said:

Attack the points Mr Bean raised, not ZH. ZH is a financial site not an extreme right wing site. It published news you will not see elsewhere, because of establishment censorship, read it, you might learn something. Your assertion that Mr Bean is wrong about H2 is based on what exactly? That you have a counter-view and always have the last word on science? If it is so simple to dispel in a few line why have Toyota not employed you? . I'd back Toyota over you. They have a record of extreme success.....how about you?  

When I need cutting edge science explained Mr Bean is my go to man 👍🏼

🙄🙄

[ExpatOilWorker]

15 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Do you mean drop in sales? Or drop in growth? Or drop in market share?

Drop in new EV sales (registration) by month y-o-y.

[ExpatOilWorker]

13 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I expect there will be a drop in registrations in  March 2024 and April  car sales up tp end of December 2023 normally  take 30-60 dates before they show up in the registrations monthly stats so expect to see skewed registrations for February 2024

People will wait for Bangkok Motor Show from 27 March 2024 to 07 April 2024. to see if any new models appearing and any pricing adjustments also some people will wait for  Byd to start local manufacturing in June of 2024 (date not confirmed)

When Mg started local manufacturing of MG4 in November 2023 there was no pricing adjustments

However when GWM started local manufacturing of the Ora in January 2024 there was a price reduction of between  B29,000 to 187,000 baht compared to the Chinese versions

Will there be a price reduction of Byd models when they are locally produced guess we will have to wait and 

Still no solution for the majority of condos owners regarding charging and still no electric pickup on the market 

EV's manufacturers worldwide are expecting slower sales now that the early adopters have purchased their vehicles I would expect it will be the same in Thailand

There are some youtube videos available where Thai owners have switched back from EV to ICE vehicles

insurance costs capital amount on insurance and replacement tyres at B10,000 a wheel limited charging, long distances  were listed as some of the reasons for switching back to ICE

 

 

Fair points, but should be easy to beat the March/April 2023 numbers in 2024.

Sustaining close 10k in November/December might be more of a challenge. 

 

 

[Issanman]

16 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Low cost Chinese EV’s will enable mass adoption of EV’s but kill the American auto manufacturing industry but keep consumers happy.

 

Preventing low cost Chinese EV’s will massively slow the adoption of EV’s, perhaps preventing it for many years, save the American auto manufacturing industry but annoy consumers.

 

The same applies in the UK and EU.

 

You have only to look at what is happening in Thailand where there are no barriers to Chinese EV.  

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

16 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Let's see when the pudding 🍮 goes sour.

When do you think we will see the first y-o-y drop in EV sales in Thailand?

Late 2024 or early 2025?

 

14 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I expect there will be a drop in registrations in  March 2024 and April  car sales up tp end of December 2023 normally  take 30-60 dates before they show up in the registrations monthly stats so expect to see skewed registrations for February 2024

People will wait for Bangkok Motor Show from 27 March 2024 to 07 April 2024. to see if any new models appearing and any pricing adjustments also some people will wait for  Byd to start local manufacturing in June of 2024 (date not confirmed)

When Mg started local manufacturing of MG4 in November 2023 there was no pricing adjustments

However when GWM started local manufacturing of the Ora in January 2024 there was a price reduction of between  B29,000 to 187,000 baht compared to the Chinese versions

Will there be a price reduction of Byd models when they are locally produced guess we will have to wait and 

Still no solution for the majority of condos owners regarding charging and still no electric pickup on the market 

EV's manufacturers worldwide are expecting slower sales now that the early adopters have purchased their vehicles I would expect it will be the same in Thailand

There are some youtube videos available where Thai owners have switched back from EV to ICE vehicles

insurance costs capital amount on insurance and replacement tyres at B10,000 a wheel limited charging, long distances  were listed as some of the reasons for switching back to ICE

 

 

 

It's normal for prices to come down on new technology past the early adopter phase.  I do think we will see BYD prices drop further.

 

It's to be expected that a very few people will switch back to ICE, but we are talking about a handful compared with the thousands buying them every month who are switching from ICE to EV.

 

14 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Chinese version of ORA Good Cat GT : 1,286,000 baht April 2023

Thai version of ORA Good Cat GT 1,099,000 baht January 2024

Thai version B187,000 price reduction 

Only Major difference I see between these models

Adjusted battery capacity from 63.139 kWh by CATL to 57.70 kWh by SVOLT.

CATL battery Chinese version

SVOLT  Thai assembled model, manufactured by SVOLT Energy battery factory in Thailand.

There are a number of other changes on the Thai version these can be found here

https://www.headlightmag.com/2024-01-12-official-price-ora-good-cat-made-in-thailand/

 

 

I remember the launch of the Good Cat GT and thought why would anyone pay that much more to upgrade a standard Ora Good Cat to something approaching the performance of the MG4?

 

Sometimes it's hard to fathom how far away manufacturers ideas are compared to consumers.  The Toyota bZ4x is a perfect example, people are not beating their way to Toyota to pay 150% more than they need to over the far superior Atto 3 which has the same BYD blade batteries and a better motor.

 

 

51 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Drop in new EV sales (registration) by month y-o-y.

 

If you mean the month compared to it's equivalent month in the previous year?  I don't think we will ever see this happen 3 times in a row in our lifetime (in Thailand).

 

6 minutes ago, Issanman said:

 

 

 

He can only adjust those Chinese manufacturers who haven't already contracted to build factories here.  Thailand would be in breach of contract to do that.  He could however harmonise the duty rate for Chinese EV imports with Japan for those manufacturers who aren't building assembly plants here.  I suspect companies like Toyota are lobbying VERY VERY hard for something like this.

[vinny41]

17 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

It’s a conundrum.

 

Low cost Chinese EV’s will enable mass adoption of EV’s but kill the American auto manufacturing industry but keep consumers happy.

 

Preventing low cost Chinese EV’s will massively slow the adoption of EV’s, perhaps preventing it for many years, save the American auto manufacturing industry but annoy consumers.

 

The same applies in the UK and EU.

 

You have only to look at what is happening in Thailand where there are no barriers to Chinese EV.  

Chinese manufacturers in Thailand have barriers if they don't commit to EV 3.5

Trump is talking about 60% tariff on Chinese EVs

 

The Biden administration is considering restrictions on imports of Chinese “smart cars” and related components that would go beyond tariffs to address growing US concerns about data security, according to people familiar with the matter.

The measures would apply to electric vehicles and parts originating from China, no matter where they’re finally assembled, to prevent Chinese makers from moving cars and components into American markets through third countries like Mexico, the people said. The measures could also apply to other countries about which the US has data concerns, one of the people said. Tariffs alone, they added, won’t fully address this issue.

https://fortune.com/asia/2024/02/09/biden-administration-restrict-imports-chinese-evs-parts-built/

 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Fair points, but should be easy to beat the March/April 2023 numbers in 2024.

Sustaining close 10k in November/December might be more of a challenge. 

 

 

I think you will find on this forum and outside this forum the expectations are  that the  sales figures for each month will always exceed 10K

Thailand is forecasted to see electric car sales of around 130,000 vehicles in 2024, representing 16% of the total market—a 70% increase from 2023.

https://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/business/2024/02/12/great-wall-motor-plans-15-additional-models-for-thailands-ev-cars-by-2025/#:~:text=Thailand is forecasted to see,increase from the previous year.

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Chinese manufacturers in Thailand have barriers if they don't commit to EV 3.5

Trump is talking about 60% tariff on Chinese EVs

 

The Biden administration is considering restrictions on imports of Chinese “smart cars” and related components that would go beyond tariffs to address growing US concerns about data security, according to people familiar with the matter.

The measures would apply to electric vehicles and parts originating from China, no matter where they’re finally assembled, to prevent Chinese makers from moving cars and components into American markets through third countries like Mexico, the people said. The measures could also apply to other countries about which the US has data concerns, one of the people said. Tariffs alone, they added, won’t fully address this issue.

https://fortune.com/asia/2024/02/09/biden-administration-restrict-imports-chinese-evs-parts-built/

 

 

I may be wrong, but I think Chinese EV manufacturers who don't commit to EV3.5 have a 5% import tax whereas Japanese EV's have a 20% import tax. I do agree Japan should be treated exactly the same as China.

 

America is a thorny problem.  Consumers would love cheap Chinese EV's.  Biden could do what Xi has done in China, no Tesla's are allowed in sensitive government locations, maybe that's extended to iPhones, I am not sure.

 

 

[vinny41]

21 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I may be wrong, but I think Chinese EV manufacturers who don't commit to EV3.5 have a 5% import tax whereas Japanese EV's have a 20% import tax. I do agree Japan should be treated exactly the same as China.

 

America is a thorny problem.  Consumers would love cheap Chinese EV's.  Biden could do what Xi has done in China, no Tesla's are allowed in sensitive government locations, maybe that's extended to iPhones, I am not sure.

 

 

Thailand's EV import tax rates vary. EVs imported from China enjoy a 0% tax rate under a bilateral agreement between Thailand and China.

Some EVs imported from Japan are subject to a 20% tax rate under the Japan-Thailand Economic Partnership Agreement. However, the source said most EVs imported from Japan are not entitled to the 20% rate and instead face an 80% rate as their Japanese content exceeds the level required for the lower rate.

EVs imported from South Korea are levied a 40% import tax, while those from Europe face an 80% import tax.

https://www.thaiauto.or.th/2020/news/?news_id=5248

I expect in time this will change as Thailand EV manufacturers will want to export to these countries and most countries operate a tit for tat when it comes to import tariffs so if these import tariffs remain almost impossible to export to these countries

 

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Thailand's EV import tax rates vary. EVs imported from China enjoy a 0% tax rate under a bilateral agreement between Thailand and China.

Some EVs imported from Japan are subject to a 20% tax rate under the Japan-Thailand Economic Partnership Agreement. However, the source said most EVs imported from Japan are not entitled to the 20% rate and instead face an 80% rate as their Japanese content exceeds the level required for the lower rate.

EVs imported from South Korea are levied a 40% import tax, while those from Europe face an 80% import tax.

https://www.thaiauto.or.th/2020/news/?news_id=5248

I expect in time this will change as Thailand EV manufacturers will want to export to these countries and most countries operate a tit for tat when it comes to import tariffs so if these import tariffs remain almost impossible to export to these countries

 

 

I agree with you and additionally, Japan has many manufacturing plants here, they could move them to Vietnam or Cambodia which would be politically horrendous here.

[Pib]

4 hours ago, Issanman said:

 

 

 

 

A partial quote below from above article pretty much sums up what the PM is really wanting---he's really wants more tax revenue by wanting to tax more "Made in China" products.   But at the same time China and Thailand have a Free Trade Agreement that dictates no to little import tax on products made in China or Thailand.  He's speaking out of both sides of his mouth....trying to pacify certain Thai industries whose competition is cheaper China industries while also looking for more tax revenue to fund his parties programs/election promises like giving out a Bt10K handout.

 

While the Revenue Dept may end up raising some "excise" taxes on some products the dept will not be able to raise "import" taxes on most China made products due to the trade agreement between China-Thailand.   And even raising excise taxes on some products will get major push-back from China and Thai companies which sell those products.   Yeap, all that will result is some tinkering around the tax edges.

 

Quote

Certainly, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin urged the Revenue and Customs Departments to take measures to curb the trend. The Prime Minister’s call for action comes in the wake of rising disquiet voiced by various economic bodies.

 

[ExpatOilWorker]

11 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

If you mean the month compared to it's equivalent month in the previous year?  I don't think we will ever see this happen 3 times in a row in our lifetime (in Thailand).

You up the ante by calling for a 3 month y-o-y decline, but unless you have an early date at the Pearly gate, we will both see that.

At some point the second hand EV market will take customers away from the new vehicle market. Not yet, but in a few years. 

[HighPriority]

And THATS when the sky will fall. 

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

You up the ante by calling for a 3 month y-o-y decline, but unless you have an early date at the Pearly gate, we will both see that.

At some point the second hand EV market will take customers away from the new vehicle market. Not yet, but in a few years. 

 

2 hours ago, HighPriority said:

And THATS when the sky will fall. 

Nah, there are people who will always simply buy new.  Budget dependent, if intelligent.  I'm one of them now, as days of 2nd hand are way behind me.  

 

Before retiring, 2nd hand was practical, and fit my financial goals of early retirement.   Only bought one new truck days past, and that was a business investment, and needed.

[HighPriority]

I totally agree with you KhunLA.
 

At first it was “ev are rubbish”, then it became “ev destroy the environment” (ice are the environments friend… 🤔) “ev exploit children” etc etc…

Now thankfully we seem to have gotten past all that.

 

Now ev are evil because someone’s crystal ball predicts that they will have a lower resale value one day in the future… maybe… “I think”… possibly…

I wonder if their Crystal balls can help me with my lotto numbers ?

 

Its just a slightly refined version of their earlier “What ifs”